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How to Deal with Neverborn/Multiple Lures


warder808

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@retnab

Thanks! I just caught onto the Wendigo part myself so I removed it.

I still don't se why the "secondary" range requirement can't also be drawn from the ice mirror. Ice mirror is used to make the range measurement to the casting model for the attack action. By my reading you have already replaced [this model] with [ice mirror model] at least twice so why not this third time?

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51 minutes ago, retnab said:

Two things, from all the above: There is a range restriction, but the ice pillars being placed within 12" is in addition to that range.  So, if you're bouncing it forward with Ice Mirror it must be within 12" of the Frozen Heart model from its Rg and within 12" of Rasputina from the secondary requirement in its text.

Second, when the Wendigo uses Magical Extension, it becomes the "this model" in Ice Pillars as it is the one using the Ability.  So, the restriction is basically just within 12" of it, as it doesn't have Ice Mirror.

Why would you ever bounce it if you don't benefit from a range increase though? It doesn't have a Line of Sight requirement.

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On 07/10/2017 at 3:57 PM, Jinn said:

Why would you ever bounce it if you don't benefit from a range increase though? It doesn't have a Line of Sight requirement.

Sometimes you might penalise the range? (Can't remember the wording of Night terrors aura, but is reduces some ranges.)

And possibly they wanted a spell that she couldn't boost range of with Ice mirrors (or other range boosters) just because she has ice mirrors does not mean that she needs to be able to cast ll her spells through ice mirrors and gain a bonus from doing so.

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3 hours ago, Adran said:

Sometimes you might penalise the range? (Can't remember the wording of Night terrors aura, but is reduces some ranges.)

The weird thing is that the Night Terror's aura would reduce her range stat to 8 but she would still place the markers within 12" by this interpretation, which I think is unintended. I just hope an official ruling of some kind is made so we know whether this is intended.

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Just now, Jinn said:

The weird thing is that the Night Terror's aura would reduce her range stat to 8 but she would still place the markers within 12" by this interpretation, which I think is unintended. I just hope an official ruling of some kind is made so we know whether this is intended.

No. you would have to meet both the range of 8 and withinin 12" of the caster in that case, so without Ice mirrors your range is reduced to 8, but if you can use an ice mirror nearer where you want you can still use 12" as long as that is within 8 of the ice mirror you use

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8 minutes ago, Adran said:

No. you would have to meet both the range of 8 and withinin 12" of the caster in that case, so without Ice mirrors your range is reduced to 8, but if you can use an ice mirror nearer where you want you can still use 12" as long as that is within 8 of the ice mirror you use

The action doesn't specify that the markers have to be placed within range, they specify that you place them within 12" of the casting model. If the wording was "within range and within 12" of this model" I would agree with you. The markers also don't need LoS which is also quite weird..

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On 10/7/2017 at 9:22 AM, Ludvig said:

 

 

Her ice mirror allows her to make the range measuremet from her mirror. How is the range between the marker and casting model not considered the range of the action? The entire section on range and LoS on page 40 repeatedly states things like "To determine if a model (or other object) is in range of the Acting model, measure from base to base." and "Any Action that has a target will also require that the acting model is able to see the Target." So when you are drawing LoS and range from another model's base you are basically using that model as a stand in for the Acting model.

Seems like a rough deal for her, my club has always assumed you can measure to the ice mirror target, that's the whole point of ice mirror. I don't play Raspy btw, I only face her.

Believe me, a lot of people play it wrong. When I first started playing Malifaux Raspy was my first master, and I played it wrong for about 2 months before a more experienced player explained the wording.

Ice mirror only impacts LoS and range, but the pillars have to be placed within 12" of the casting model. Raspy or Wendigo are still the ones casting the spell, not the mirror node.

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4 hours ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

Believe me, a lot of people play it wrong. When I first started playing Malifaux Raspy was my first master, and I played it wrong for about 2 months before a more experienced player explained the wording.

Ice mirror only impacts LoS and range, but the pillars have to be placed within 12" of the casting model. Raspy or Wendigo are still the ones casting the spell, not the mirror node.

But the rules for LoS and range specify that things are considered from the acting model through the entire paragraph. Unless you substitute the ice mirror target for the acting model you couldn't draw LoS or range from it anyways. This is also a range measurement you make as part of the action, it doesn'tmake any sense to not make that measurement to the same model. If a targeting restriction is mentioned in the flowing text of the action it is still a targeting restriction (see Sparks and Lynch). Why isn't a range restriction in the text of the action still considered a range measurement in the same way?

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On 07/10/2017 at 3:11 PM, Ludvig said:

@retnab

Thanks! I just caught onto the Wendigo part myself so I removed it.

I still don't se why the "secondary" range requirement can't also be drawn from the ice mirror. Ice mirror is used to make the range measurement to the casting model for the attack action. By my reading you have already replaced [this model] with [ice mirror model] at least twice so why not this third time?

Largely because nothing says you can. Ice mirror says you can draw line of sight and range from the Ice mirror. 

Range is the part of the action specified Rg. 

We have from the undead crowing FAQ that we don't treat the model beign used to draw range for that action as the source of the effect.

The ice pillar requirement to be within 12" of Rasputina is not the range of the spell so you can't use Ice mirror to use something else to be within 12". 

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