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Do you ever hire your Rider?


Jordon

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I love the idea behind the Riders and each faction having access to one (sorry thunders and gremlins) (but not really sorry as Yasunori is basically a super rider). The models themselves are exceptional and make great centrepiece models in just about any crew. The problem is that I never actually see them with the exception of Mech. I'd like to explore why that is and to ask the community when/if you ever take your Rider? 

Before we dive into each Rider specifically. I feel like we need to talk about how each rider works and where I think the first major flaw with these Riders are exposed. They are very unique in how they work but it's this complexity that makes them very risky hires and the reason you rarely ever see them. 

They all operate on the mechanic of scale. Starting on turn 2 they gain an additional suit to all of their actions. This suit directly ties into their ability to use certain actions, their defence, as well as offence. So what this means is that your 12ss model takes at least 3 turns before it starts acting like a 12ss model. I feel like turn 3 is when these models become useful as their pseudo armour +2 makes them resistant and their (0) actions become reliable. Beyond turn 3 they do continue to get better but I feel like they begin to plateau a bit. Many of their abilities have caps or restrictions that keep them from really going beyond a 12ss model and even their "ultimate" (0) actions are only usable on turn 5 with if you have the appropriate suit. It's also worth noting that their defensive ability can be considered a superior version of armour, it should be remembered that unlike armour, it can only be used in opposed duels unlike armour that works all the time.

I think the second question that needs to be asked is what role each rider provides and whether they are competent doing that role. It's actually interesting because I feel like the success of Mech rider is in part due to the fact that it has no competition for what it does. The other riders I feel all have a similar role to other models in their respective factions and is the start of the problem with Riders in general. Each Rider is among the most expensive models in the game with only a handful of models more expensive. 

Roles:

Mech Rider:  

So Mech is the exception to the Rider curse in that it's actually an exceptional model that see's a lot of play. Why is that? Well in part because it's not competing with Howard Langston as the meanest model around. Mech brings something exclusively unique with a focus on accomplishing schemes and summoning models. This is clearly a winning formula and even though 12ss is a hefty price tag. Your usually brining this model for a purpose and if it's doing it's job, it will net you VP which ultimately is what it's all about. With it's ability to almost guarantee VP in certain schemes, it's not difficult to see the value this model brings.

Pale Rider:

Pale is interesting among the Riders as I feel like it's probably the most versatile of the bunch. He's fast, can do schemes, can heal and has respectable damage from range or up close in the later turns. So while I feel like this model is fairly adaptable, I feel like it's also it's downfall. Like other Riders, the 12ss cost is no easy pill to swallow and in Guild specifically, it IS the most expensive model barring mercenaries. So why bring this model? Well it's mostly for a speedy beater as I don't really think it's (0) is a huge drawing card at 12ss. It's speed does make it fairly unique but in terms of damage output, well it's not quite up to snuff. It does a little bit of everything decent enough but if your looking for a model to fill a purpose then you probably have better options available. 

Hooded Rider:

This guy is a lot more strait forward than Pale and Mech. It's a strait up killer and late game is easily the most Killy of the Riders. With a 6" push, 3" reach and a trigger that can be used multiple times, you can see how this model could be a terror on turn 4+ once it maxes out its damage potential. It does have some other tricks that make it interesting but your really taking this model to kill things. Being able to remove markers is nice but really depends on poor tactics from the opponent and can be countered with proper activation planning and marker positioning. It also competes with it's damage trigger so it's really got to be worth it. It's other ability to taxi models around is cool but again requires some planning on your part. 

Dead Rider:

This is the simplest rider as it really doesn't do much outside of attacking models. Early on it's the hardest hitting but since there is no scaling damage, it will get surpassed by hooded late game. On the other hand, it's built in min damage 3 means that you are using it's triggers for secondary effects rather than increased damage. The horror duel is alright but doesn't really get serious until late game. It's other trigger to push models is good for dragging models away from support or strategies but it sort works against this model as pushing a model in base contact removes the defence benefit of the 3" reach. Basically your just taking this model for a fast beater and the horror duels/pushes are mostly secondary. 

So it seems like aside from a few tricks, Pale, Dead and Hooded are mostly there as hired muscle. Mech operates on it's own level with a focus on VP. So the second thing to examine is how they compete at their roles in their own factions. 

 

Competition:

 

Mech Rider: 

None. It has no competition near it's cost and in fact there is nothing in any capacity in Arcanists that do what Mech does on any level. It's truly unique in what it brings.

 

Pale Rider:

  • Peacekeeper 11ss:

This is really the main competition appropriate to the cost of Pale. It has a great ranged attack and starts off with min damage 4 up to a max of min damage 5 with a cheated/flipped suit that it can use each attack and access to flurry. Pale only gets to min damage 4 on turn 3 and it caps out on +2 damage which can only be declared once per turn, however it can be use from range. Peacekeeper also has armour +2, terrifying and hard to wound versus the riders "chasing death" which again takes until turn 3 before reducing an attack by two (unless you flip/cheat a ram on turn 2) 

When you do the comparison its easy to see the difference. Pale Rider starts the game woefully weak and vulnerable compared to the peacekeeper. Even fully powered, the Pale doesn't even come close to the damage output of the Peacekeeper. I also rate armour +2 higher than "chasing death" as it works passively. The terrifying and H2W push it over the top. 

So what does Pale bring that the Peacekeeper doesn't? Well speed mostly. Pale is much faster with the Wk6, 4" push with unimpeded and Cg10. However the peacekeeper does have drag to help close the distance so I'm not sure it's a massive win for the Rider here. The Rider also has the ability to drop a scheme marker as a (0) which is something Peacekeeper cannot do. However the Peacekeeper can also remove markers for his (0) so in terms of power, both bring something to the table. In the ranged department, the Rider has a better damage track, but the peacekeeper does give out slow and can drag so I feel like it's still probably the better weapon. 

In terms of why your brining the Pale Rider. I feel like you will almost always have a better option in the peacekeeper 90% of the time who for a stone cheaper, hits way harder and is much more durable. 

 

Hooded Rider:

  • Nekima 13ss
  • Teddy 11ss
  • Mature Nephilim 11ss

So I'm not as familiar with Neverborn so I'll do my best to compare here. Basically I'm looking at Nekima and the Mature Nephilim as the most direct competition as I feel they have the most in common with Hooded Rider. 

In terms of damage output both the Mature and Nekima start at min damage 4. Hooded reaches that damage on turn 3 and exceeds them on turn 4, capping at min damage 5. However both Nekima and the Mature both have means of generating extra AP in the form of melee expert and flurry which tips the scale in favour of those models in terms of damage output. In terms of speed, both models have Wk6 and flight which is better than unimpeded. However with access to Cg10 and a 6" push, I feel like hooded is still the faster model. Durability is pretty close on all three models but I'd rank Nekima first with her ability to heal, regen +1, 3" reach, and SS prevention. Hooded is next with Df5, 3" reach and "chasing reclamation" over the mature's armour +1, Df4 and terrifying. They're all pretty close though. 

So I think the comparison is more favourable for Hooded than it is for Pale but I still feel like your taking this model for it's damage output and on that criteria alone, I think your much better off going with either Nekima or the Mature. Hooded's other abilities don't feel like they're effective enough to really give it an edge over these other models and since it's going to be used as a beater, I feel like it's "chasing reclamation" has too many counters, making Hooded an unnecessary gamble. 

 

Dead Rider:

  • Archie 13ss
  • Izamu 10ss
  • Rogue Necro 10ss
  • Valedictorian 10ss

Again my familiarity with Ressers is not the strongest for here is what I feel are the strongest comparisons. Valedictorian would probably be the closest model in terms of speed, resilience and damage & triggers. 

In terms of damage output (the reason your hiring Dead) I feel like it's close. Valedictorian has a lower damage track with access to flurry and a 3" reach. Dead has higher damage but it's not until turn 3 where it can reliably attack three times (or 2 if you have the card). However the Valedictorian does have a pretty awesome trigger and since it's a henchmen, it can get it somewhat reliably. So all things considered I think it's closer to a tie. Both can reposition models via triggers (however Dead's is built in). In terms of speed the Valedictorian has Wk6 and flight which is better than the Dead, however Dead does have Cg10. Both are pretty likely to see combat turn 2 but Dead does have the slight advantage in speed. Durability goes to the valedictorian with terrifying, armour +1, H2W and soul stone prevention. Both have Df5 and 3" reach. 

So I think these models are very close in terms of what they bring. The big difference however is that the valedictorian is 2ss cheaper which gives it the edge. Also since both are very close in terms of offence, it then goes to defence in which the valedictorian is hands down the superior. If that wasn't enough then there is also the fact that the Valedictorian has a bit more utility with it's (0) which can be a huge deal. So for why I would want to hire the Dead Rider, I have to wonder why I wouldn't just take the valedictorian who is cheaper, more durable and has more utility.

 

Conclusion:

 

So I feel like aside from mech, all of the Riders are simply outclassed in their own factions. The main culprits being

  • The "Chasing" mechanic is simply not as a good as armour and has way too many counters and is the Riders main form of defence. Blasts, burning, poison, pulses and any other passive forms of damage just obliterate these models
  • They start the game as 7-8ss models and only reach 12ss around turn 3-4 but never exceeding beyond a 12ss benchmark. 
  • There are limiting once per turn triggers and capping effects that keep these models from ever reaching beyond what other models are capable of in their respective faction.
  • They compete directly with other models from their own faction which combines with the "scaling" mechanic makes them just inferior and/or risky choices 
  • Other models simply start off as good as they become making their worth questionable
  • They're the most expensive models in the game. Not something you want to take a risk on. 

 

So, do people actually run these Riders regularly? Do you think your faction has better options? Do you think I'm totally wrong, and that the your Rider is amazing? Again, I'm not talking about Mech because she's clearly awesome. 

Would you like to see Pale, Dead and Hooded errata'd back to relevancy? 

 

 

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So I generally agree with your assessment.

But regards changing them the problems are manifold.  I mean look at Yasunori for an example of an over-powered rider, seems in TT its a near auto-take, if you need its phenomenal blend of power and speed (which mostly you do), regardless of master.

Fore most is the schtick of the riders is the progressive creep, its interesting and unique but it must be carefully balanced make the riders to durable early they become indestructible later and are likely to get to later because you can hide them turn 1 and probably survive 2-3 before the huge pay off.  The same goes for their damage and other actions if the build-up process makes its full potential you'll probably have a game breaking model turn 5.

Additionally there is the Levi factor, all the riders are available to him and if each is very good the combination (or one+ taken to fulfill a specific need) is potentially a problem.

Obvious three routes to address the problem - 

  • Make expensive riders cheaper,  this could be bad (especially in combo Levi lists) but seems an obvious safe play test type change as we already have a good idea of each models power.
  • Increase the poorer riders durability and/or damage, or give them other tricks to up their power, this does risk a dreadful power creep and potential game breaking consequences.
  • Change the riders to fulfill the Mech Riders unique slot position - this is harder and would require huge errata's with massive risks of combo power breakage.  But equally I like this idea the best because it feels right, but what does each Rider do...??? (obviously Mech seems pretty solid)
    • I'd like to see the Pale Rider have powers which 'prevent' other factions - so maybe a tactical action (0) which creates an aura which has a trigger on each suit :ram a kinda catch all for TT and Gremlins, maybe something which gives :-fate flips to models, :crow anti-undead so perhaps destroys corpse markers and prevents them spawning in the aura, :tome anti-magic so maybe something which removes suits or reduces Ca flips (or both) and :mask anti-neverborn so maybe something which prevents Horror duels.  This is not fully thoguht out but I think you see where I'm going.
    • The Dead Rider should be something about corpse manipulation and movement so say something which causes corpse markers to always drop from any model (even constructs - spirits in tortured steel...) and maybe an aura which prevents corpse markers from vanishing to enemy actions.  Also perhaps a means of drawing corpse markers towards itself (head towards the scythe..).
    • The Hooded Rider should be about horror and death.  Really here I like the idea of keeping them as is but making it 1/2 current wounds, incorporeal and giving it something like magic-resistance (so basically bullet-proof for Ca actions), needs to be thought out but I think this could give the Hooded Rider a horrifying durability and reach for a beater in a different way to its competition in Nekima and the Mature.  Maybe a screams from beyond ability that prevents Horror immunity for enemies in the aura and/or makes horror duels worse (discard two cards to cheat or +1 difficulty to all Horror duels).

 That is basically my idea.  Instead of doubling down on the riders to compete 'better' in already increasingly model bloated slots change them up, make them unique and characterful for the faction.  It will be amazingly hard to balance and errata but that is still I think the best idea.

 

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Yeah I would agree with you. It's certainly a delicate slope and with 12ss models it could be easy for them to go overboard. I just feel like the game has evolved so much since they were conceived and they just don't stand the test of time. With each new wave I feel like they become less and less viable. 

I don't even mind having them start off weak and gradually get stronger. However the problem is that even at their strongest, they are only on par with other models of a similar cost and sometimes it's still not enough. It's like they start weak and build up to 12ss which seems silly. If they started at about 10ss, mid game got to 12ss and end game were what I would approximate 14ss then I could accept the weakness early game. However it's just not that way and you ask yourself why you'd give yourself that handicap on a 12ss model. 

I sort of feel like these models could have benefited from a rule that disallowed them to be tampered with by actions or abilities. That would mean they would just be judged on their own merits without having to adjust them due to obey's, conditions or other abilities that may otherwise break them. 

I also like your suggestion of making them have more of a unique identity because they just seem to be fairly static in terms of their play style (again, not mech). Giving them abilities based on the general faction stereotypes would be interesting. I am shocked Dead Rider has no actual interaction with the dead. Being able to summon mindless zombies or use corpse markers seems like an obvious way to go with him. Hooded should have some WP based attacks and/or terrain interaction. Pale could sort of be the all comer sort of how he is now but with a few more bells and whistles (ignoring armour, removing markers, condition removal, etc) 

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I don't mind the Hooded Rider against Ressers; it's got solid, reliable corpse removal.  I ran it once with Titania and with Queen's Champ it was a true powerhouse.  It did get quite lucky though (Red Jokered Mortimer, then Nico the following turn!).

On 25/09/2017 at 11:43 AM, Jordon said:

I also like your suggestion of making them have more of a unique identity because they just seem to be fairly static in terms of their play style (again, not mech). Giving them abilities based on the general faction stereotypes would be interesting. I am shocked Dead Rider has no actual interaction with the dead. Being able to summon mindless zombies or use corpse markers seems like an obvious way to go with him. Hooded should have some WP based attacks and/or terrain interaction. Pale could sort of be the all comer sort of how he is now but with a few more bells and whistles (ignoring armour, removing markers, condition removal, etc) 

All of these ideas sound amazing!  Although, if you gave Hooded terrain shenanigans, you'd have to keep it distinct from the Emissary.  But yeah, love those ideas!

An idea I just had for their defences is: what about if you built-in the suit for their Df trigger but reduce damage suffered to a minimum of 2 (instead of 1). That way, they start better protected from the big stuff right from the start, but easier to chip damage. They might also need a boost to Df6. In my mind that makes them much hardier. 

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Another factor is that the number of models that ignore damage reduction have been growing. If models had stuck to ignoring specific abilities like Armour and Incorporeal then things that flat-out reduce damage would have been stronger.

I remember playing with the riders when my, and the meta I play in's, collection was much more limited and when it got to later turns with or against the Riders they really felt invincible.

I think upping the wound counts of some of the riders could be the way to go, combined with other tweaks. Increasing wound counts is a pretty granular change, so it might be easier to balance.

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2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not all Ressers care about corpses  so it wouldn't be a unique role defining feature.

 

Maybe not, but a skeleton wielding a scythe and riding an undead horse seems like it would work thematically. It's kind of difficult getting a theme that works universally across each faction but generally the ressers are the ones who like dead bodies.

20 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Another factor is that the number of models that ignore damage reduction have been growing. If models had stuck to ignoring specific abilities like Armour and Incorporeal then things that flat-out reduce damage would have been stronger.

I remember playing with the riders when my, and the meta I play in's, collection was much more limited and when it got to later turns with or against the Riders they really felt invincible.

I think upping the wound counts of some of the riders could be the way to go, combined with other tweaks. Increasing wound counts is a pretty granular change, so it might be easier to balance.

It seems to be something seen across all factions with many models. With each faction getting more condition removal, ignoring reduction attacks, passive damage it seems like certain models are finding it more difficult to cope in the ever growing meta. 

I can't really seem to remember ever hearing much on the riders. Certainly in my meta they have never made any sort of lasting impact (aside from mech of corse) and were quickly replaced with the faction heavy hitting staples. It may only be a local meta thing, but I feel like it was an uphill battle right from the get go with the riders. 

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37 minutes ago, Freman said:

Remove the "turn number minus 1" limitation. Instead just "turn number" so instead of starting with nothing, they start with one, and with the appropriate card you can get something done on the first turn.

Which might be fine for Pale, Dead, and Hooded but might be too much of a swing on Mech Rider. You could just exclude mech from getting it turn 1 but it would break the whole unified mechanic of the riders. 

If I were to change the riders I would personally love to see this:

Changing their "chasing" from a Df trigger to just a passive ability as now they wouldn't be taking full damage from burning, blasts, pulses, etc. Every turn they reduce all incoming damage by the an amount equal to the turn number minus 1. 

Chasing "Whatever": When this model would suffer damage it may reduce that damage equal to the turn number minus 1 to a minimum of 1. Furthermore this model gains a "suit" to all actions equal to the turn number minus 1.

Secondly I would give them another rule that made it so they were unable to be manipulated outside of their own activation. In other words, no pushes, no obeys/prompts, buries. So basically nothing can force extra attacks or alter their positions whether it were friendly or enemy. This is just a balance measure keeping them from being OP when factoring in late game obeys or other forms of AP manipulation.

Beyond Comprehension: This model may not be take actions outside of it's activation. Furthermore this model is immune to push, place and bury effects that happen outside of its own activation. 

Lastly I would rewrite their abilities to lift many of the restrictions so that they can actually compete with other models. They need to compete less other beaters and take a page from Mech and do things differently. They should start weak turn 1-2 (8-10ss range), then become average turn 3-4 (11-12ss range) and then finally get strong turn 4-5 (13-14ss range). I would also change all of their big (0) actions so that they could be achieved turn 4 with a card or turn 5 automatically (if you hit the TN or win the duel of course).

I love the mechanics of the riders and would like to see it kept in tack. However they just don't scale properly and have too many limitations and counters. In order to compete with the heavy hitters of their own factions they need better survivability and more of a focus on utility rather than simply beaters. 

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On 25/09/2017 at 3:43 PM, Jordon said:

I just feel like the game has evolved so much since they were conceived and they just don't stand the test of time. With each new wave I feel like they become less and less viable. 

This encapsulates their 'problems' 100%. They are probably decent models when played in a Wave 1+Rulebook schemes format, but from Wave 3 onwards and progressive GG seasons... the game's evolution has left them in the dust. 

At the time of their creation, their AP felt strong in comparison to other models but this isn't the case anymore. Relatively few models even had (0) Actions so a Rider's (0) would have felt more unique and more useful than it does now (whereas now your average 4-5ss Minion comes with (0) Actions as often as not).
Back when they came out, there was less movement and AP manipulation available, which means a full first turn of mostly "double Walk, pass" for each side was more common, making the Riders reach their potential more quickly and also be safer during their fragile turn 1. Crews nowadays are almost always capable of reaching combat or inflicting damage in turn 1, exactly when your Ht 3, 50mm 12ss pointsink is most vulnerable and less able to fight back efficiently.

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While one could dramatically reinvent each Rider, I think their core rules are generally already quite unique, especially with their Stubborn (which is very rare outside of Riders) and Chasing x mechanic. Maybe they just need unique upgrade to complement what they already offer. We've recently seen how much new upgrade options can change Masters despite the Master's base card staying identical.

A lot of people dislike 0ss upgrade 'fixes', but its worth noting that many of the previous 0ss upgrade fixes were for Minions (Low River Monk, Oiran and Onryo spring to mind) so they needed someone else to hold it for them, which is what made these fixes awkward. 

Since Riders are Enforcers, a cycle of 4 new unique upgrades would be a relatively easy way add a few select things for each rider without needing to change the box they come in. You could even have the upgrades not take up an upgrade slot.

Perhaps an upgrade cycle could add a stipulation that the Rider's "Chasing x" mechanic applies even if the source would not normally allow damage to be reduced (similar to Hoffman's new harness upgrade) and/or can be used to reduce Burning or Blast damage.

Maybe it adds an extra trigger that meshes well with the Rider's theme, which give something very meaningful to Pale/Dead/Hooded and something like 'ignores Bulletproof" to Mech so she's not buffed as much as they are.

Maybe, once per game your Rider can add an extra suite to a duel they're about to take. It'd make their ultimate (0) come in a turn earlier and be somewhat more viable, or make your exorbitantly priced Rider more likely to survive one specific attack.

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Speaking specifically about the Hooded Rider as it is the only one I currently have personal experience with, I find he's a great model to take in certain scenarios. When a lot of killing is needed I think hes great to take, he is very durable turn 3 and onward and his damage output from the same point is phenomenal. Hes more mobile than Nekima who I think is his main competition and tends to be more durable if you can keep your opponent from getting to him early game. Also with the recent addition of Serena to the Neverborn, the Hooded rider becomes ridiculous when run with the Dreamer.

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On 2017-10-02 at 7:14 PM, ConfuciuSay said:

Speaking specifically about the Hooded Rider as it is the only one I currently have personal experience with, I find he's a great model to take in certain scenarios. When a lot of killing is needed I think hes great to take, he is very durable turn 3 and onward and his damage output from the same point is phenomenal. Hes more mobile than Nekima who I think is his main competition and tends to be more durable if you can keep your opponent from getting to him early game. Also with the recent addition of Serena to the Neverborn, the Hooded rider becomes ridiculous when run with the Dreamer.

Hooded is decent enough late game for sure. The only issue is that it takes so long for him to get good while you have Nekima who on turn 1 is a melee expert min 4 damage. Even on turn 4+, the average damage of the Hooded is not to the level of Nekima with melee expert.

I feel like the big problem is that he's too focused on damage when he should be taken for his other abilities. He lacks utility that would make him stand out from other beaters and what he does bring comes at an unnecessary gamble versus other models that do the same job. Sure he's fast, but he starts off so weak that speed hardly even matters as you really only want to get stuck on on turn 3+. Even then, his durability compared to other models is a complete gamble. Blasts, burning pulses and other non opposed damage melts the riders who only have a Df trigger to keep them alive.

You can put in the effort into getting him to work but at that point you have to ask why you wouldn't instead put that effort into someone more reliable for greater effect.

 

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1 hour ago, Jordon said:

You can put in the effort into getting him to work but at that point you have to ask why you wouldn't instead put that effort into someone more reliable for greater effect.

 

Because you don't like the look of those models as much?

Miniature games have balance issues so some models will always be a little better than others but a big part of the game is about building and painting models. When you put effort into a model you want to use it so figuring out how to do that to the best effect is also a worthwhile point of discussion even if the model is outdone by another choice.

There comes a point where the difference is so big that one model really hurts your list, I won't comment on if that is the case here because i have no idea.

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I'll give you that. I love the ascetic of every rider and it's why I made this thread because I want to see more of them. I mostly play arcanists so bringing Mech isin't really much of a handicap for me. Even if she was, I still think I'd bring her because I love the model so much. 

I just hope sometime in the future we will be given a reason to take these guys more. They have a really unique mechanic and they look cool as hell.

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On their release I saw them a lot, not just the mech but the dead and hooded one as well. 

Now the game has kind of run away from them. 

If people's hopes/fears about an edition overhaul with split factions comes true they might get a rebalance. They really are amazing models, I would love to feel compelled to splurge all that cash on a single model. ;)

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11 hours ago, Jordon said:

You can put in the effort into getting him to work but at that point you have to ask why you wouldn't instead put that effort into someone more reliable for greater effect.

 

I completely agree with you. A lot of the time when I debate putting the Hooded into a list I always consider what he's giving me over Nekima or even splitting his points up to get two models. Sometimes other models win out over him, but now with the addition of Serena I think he's your best pick in a Dreamer crew if you are looking for a high cost beater. Making him Nightmare and still being able to have A Thousand Faces on him to adapt to what your opponent brings is so good. Being able to Empty Night him puts him above all other models at that cost level in my opinion.

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17 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I completely agree with you. A lot of the time when I debate putting the Hooded into a list I always consider what he's giving me over Nekima or even splitting his points up to get two models. Sometimes other models win out over him, but now with the addition of Serena I think he's your best pick in a Dreamer crew if you are looking for a high cost beater. Making him Nightmare and still being able to have A Thousand Faces on him to adapt to what your opponent brings is so good. Being able to Empty Night him puts him above all other models at that cost level in my opinion.

If you make him a Nightmare via Serena's Warped Reality, then he can't carry another Upgrade...

I thought the idea of giving the riders their suit equal to the turn number (not -1) was a really simple and elegant solution.  The only one that would be too much would be Mech... but his summon could require :tome:tome:tome maybe.  That would make them a lot better.

That and removing the Df Trigger and just making it an always on ability.

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Sorry for the double post.

Just looked at the upgrade and it does in fact take up the models upgrade slot. The beta version didn't. That does make the rider slightly less effective than I thought, but I still think in a Dreamer crew where you can push him around give him extra AP, heal, and remove conditions from him. I'd still say he's worth it.

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7 hours ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Just looked at the upgrade and it does in fact take up the models upgrade slot. The beta version didn't. That does make the rider slightly less effective than I thought, but I still think in a Dreamer crew where you can push him around give him extra AP, heal, and remove conditions from him. I'd still say he's worth it.

He's also 13ss and no upgrade slot at that point. From the shadows does very little as you'll probably want him far back in your deployment zone on the first two turns and his speed will get him where he needs to be beyond that.

Making him a nightmare is a nice buff though when factoring in dreamer

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On 10/5/2017 at 6:58 PM, Jordon said:

He's also 13ss and no upgrade slot at that point. From the shadows does very little as you'll probably want him far back in your deployment zone on the first two turns and his speed will get him where he needs to be beyond that.

Making him a nightmare is a nice buff though when factoring in dreamer

Yeah, it's just for making him a nightmare, which opens up quite a bit of support for him from Empty Night.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Although it would mean changing his card I miss the passage of time concept the hoodedrider had in 1.5 being able to cycle his abilities throughout the game again would give him a uniqe play style so he wasn't competing so directly with pure agro pieces.

It wouldn't even have to mirror the 1.5 version but being able to have him addapt to the battle field could make him a viable choice especially if you aren't sure what you are going to be facing.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I've been having the same thoughts as I'm finishing up my Hooded Rider. Lowering costs is one way to go, but the disparity between Mech and the rest remains unless you further adjust her cost - breaking the nice symmetry.

I think the best option at this point would be to go with personal upgrades, 0SS, does not count against upgrade limit (so you can still bring a regular upgrade like Retribution's Eye or Thousand Faces for Hooded, for example). Go with the previously mentioned idea of letting their triggers reduce regardless (still vulnerable early game and to "ignore trigger" models) as a shared passive, then throw in additional items of varying power to bring them to A) 12SS worth of model and B ) roughly comparable power levels.

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