Midnight stalker rules

[Erik1978]

Reborn: "At the beginning of each Turn, this model heals all damage and may be placed within 8" of its current position"

Is that before or after determining initiative?

Respect for the art: "During this model's activation, it cannon target enemy models that have already activated this turn."

So what about disengaging strikes? Are they against a model that is IN its activation and therefore CAN be targeted, or can he never make disengaging strikes, since the enemies have "activated", when they declare a Wk?

[Nikodemus]

11 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The other question is trickier, is there a breakdown in the rules of different start of turn phases? If there is no breakdown this ability sounds like it goes atthe very startso before determining initiative.

From page 30 SRB:

Quote

Turn Sequence
1.  Draw Phase: Shuffle Discard Piles, Discard Cards, Draw Cards & Meet Hand Size
2.  Initiative Phase: Flip for Initiative, Use Soulstones, Determine First Player
3.  Activation Phase: Players Activate Models
4.  End Phase: Upkeep, Earn Victory Points, Check for Encounter End

Reads to me like heal+place happens before you shuffle decks.

[solkan]

For the record, one of the previous threads concerning the timing of 'start of the turn'/beginning of the turn/etc. effects:

I'm pretty sure there are some effects that also specify "after the initiative flip", just to muddy the waters, but there are probably enough effects at this point to warrant a FAQ entry.  (Or an errata to General Timing to incorporate the special case of doing stuff before there's a First Player determined...)

I just don't like the idea of trying to extrapolate from "spend a soul stone to draw cards" instead of applying General Timing.  After all, it's not the first time that "at the start of X" has meant "a few steps into the process of X".  

[Dogmantra]

Although Ludvig is super correct about the disengaging thing, I'd like to add that you are considered to have activated as soon as you begin your activation. From the FAQ:

43) When does a model count as having been Activated, at the start of its Activation or at the end of its Activation? For example, if a model is somehow Attacked during its Activation, would it benefit from Manipulative? A model counts as having Activated at the start of its Activation as soon as it is selected to Activate. It would stop benefitting from things like Manipulative at this time.

[solkan]

29 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Reborn: "At the beginning of each Turn, this model heals all damage and may be placed within 8" of its current position"

Is that before or after determining initiative?

It has to be after determining initiative, because you have to be able to deal with two players both having "at the beginning of each turn" effects, and the only way to do that requires having an initiative order.

29 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Respect for the art: "During this model's activation, it cannon target enemy models that have already activated this turn."

So what about disengaging strikes? Are they against a model that is IN its activation and therefore CAN be targeted, or can he never make disengaging strikes, since the enemies have "activated", when they declare a Wk?

I can't copy/paste at the moment, but the answer you're looking for is FAQ entry #43, a model is considered to have already activated (or activated, or whatever other pile of tenses you want) as soon as it has been selected to activate.  So he's not going to perform a disengaging strike against the activating model.

 

 

[solkan]

10 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

From page 30 SRB:

Reads to me like heal+place happens before you shuffle decks.

Both players have Midnight Stalker (or other model with a beginning of turn effect).  Which one goes first?  General Timing requires you wait until after initiative because you need a player order and don't have one until after initiative.

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, Sombre said:

Other questions, this time about his Ability "Mighty leap: This model ignores all intervening models during Walk or Charge actions."

Does the Midnight Stalker is affected by ennemies Disengaging Stikes ? Or can he just ignore them and walk away ?

Can the Midnight Stalker charge even when engaged ?

Oooh, this one I can answer.

The Midnight Stalker can't auto-disengage.

Page 49 of the Handbook, "Some models may have special movement abilities (such as Flight or Incorporeal) that allow the model to ignore other models when moving. These abilities do not prevent disengaging strikes, as the strike happens in response to the Action being taken, and the model is not moving yet."

Similarly, he can't Charge, as you can't declare it while engaged, so he's not moving yet.

It just means if there's a bottleneck, he can move to the other side of the model. Or, if he has LOS and distance, he can ignore screening models to get to a more valuable target (ie, a Canine Remains in front of a Sebastian).

[Ludvig]

It's impossible to target someone with a disengaging strike during your own activation unless you have an obey. That rule doesn't interact with normal disengaging strikes since those are taken during another models activation and not the stalker's.

The other question is trickier, is there a breakdown in the rules of different start of turn phases? If there is no breakdown this ability sounds like it goes atthe very startso before determining initiative.

[Nikodemus]

Intuitively I'd say that last turn's First Player goes first (same as stoning for card draw), but intuition and RAW clash so often I'm willing to buy your stance on this.

[Ludvig]

After initiarive sounda like a neat sollution because of what @solkan said about needing a first player.

If the enemy model has started its activation I will go out on a limb here and guess that it will not currently be the stalkers activation anymore so it can declare disengaging strikes since the ability is only active during the stalkers own activation.

[solkan]

 

5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

If the enemy model has started its activation I will go out on a limb here and guess that it will not currently be the stalkers activation anymore so it can declare disengaging strikes since the ability is only active during the stalkers own activation.

Ah, dammit.  I forgot about the "During this model's activation" clause on the ability.  So in order to be prevented, all three of the following have to be true:

• It is the Midnight Stalker's activation
• The other model has activated previously in the turn
• Somehow the other model has declared a Walk action leaving the Midnight Stalker's melee range.

I can't think of anything that would allow an out-of-activation Walk during the Midnight Stalker's activation at the moment, but I'm sure there's some obscure death rattle ability/condition or something that could set up this situation.  

 

[Ludvig]

A neverborn leader gets to take a (1) action when you kill a model that has a thousand faces so I guess if you do that and they want to wqlk away for some reason.

[Erik1978]

Oh yes of course, he can make disengaging strikes outside his own activation whether or not the model moving away counts as having already activated or not. I forgot that detail.

Makes sense with after initiative.

Thanks guys. (Just tried him and Talos for the first time today against a supreme evil)

[Adran]

On 24/09/2017 at 4:00 PM, solkan said:

Both players have Midnight Stalker (or other model with a beginning of turn effect).  Which one goes first?  General Timing requires you wait until after initiative because you need a player order and don't have one until after initiative.

You have a first player based on the last initiative flip. Until you change the first player they are that person. So doing it before the initative flip you just use first player form the previous tunr. 

[Sombre]

Other questions, this time about his Ability "Mighty leap: This model ignores all intervening models during Walk or Charge actions."

Does the Midnight Stalker is affected by ennemies Disengaging Stikes ? Or can he just ignore them and walk away ?

Can the Midnight Stalker charge even when engaged ?

[Erik1978]

He has to be allowed to charge before he can ignore other models when charging. So no, he can't charge when engaged. 

And yes he is affected by disengaging strikes.

He can, however, walk or charge through a wall of models to end up behind them. (Still needs LoS to charge target)

 

Edit: Beaten by seconds.

[Raimu]

Does Stalker receive Fast while activating partly on the opponent's half of board?

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

10 minutes ago, Raimu said:

Does Stalker receive Fast while activating partly on the opponent's half of board?

Yes, he does.

[Davos]

The way we played it my recent tournaments is I asked my opponent at the top of round 1 which they thought it was - before or after initiative, then whatever they agreed to played it as such for the rest of the game.  I've had opponents say both ways, and in my local meta we've always played it as placing after initiative is determined, but per-first activation.

I found it the most equitable way to deal with it, since it is not totally clear as written.