SuperFly TNT Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 It's fair to say Levi doesn't do much other than attack and right now Imo not very effectively. I also doubt that a second errata will happen but one can hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_C Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, SuperFly TNT said: It's fair to say Levi doesn't do much other than attack and right now Imo not very effectively. I also doubt that a second errata will happen but one can hope. He survives, redeploys, summons, deals 1/2 damage... You don't think he still has some tricks? He was totally busted pre-errata IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXXXVIII Posted September 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 Surviving and redeploying does nothingon its own. It allows you to do the things you want to do better. And thats dealing 1/2 damage and summoning? Lets be honest. Levis summon is either crap (from ashes) or on kill... which he's not that good at anyore. I'd go so far and say that tara has better damage output than levi nowadays. And 1/2 damage sounds more fancy than it is. It can be good...if your hitting a model with 7 wounds left. And ur able to get a straight damage flip and cheat in medium damage and have spent a stone for the trigger... then it might be better than Von Schill shooting you once with weak damage. And yes, he was kinda busted pre-errata. No doubt. I'm not asking to revert him. but im asking to give him a role back he could fullfill... besides being large hiring pool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperFly TNT Posted September 28, 2017 Report Share Posted September 28, 2017 I don't disagree that old Channel was too powerful but current Channel is too weak. 1/2 wounds trigger is dependent on hitting Moderate or Severe and pretty undependable now. It was a scary option back when you could usually get a straight or plus flip. Post Errata most of the time you're hitting weak. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 I don't think improving Levi's damage is a good way to fix him because thats what made people get upset about him anyway, despite it being no worse than collodi and certainly not as good as any real damage master. He has a lot of wasted card space between the abomination summon upgrade being terrible, the weird "discard a card to make unmade do 1 more damage" aura and things like that. The aura is even weirder since its anti-synergistic with his desire to bury himself. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXXXVIII Posted September 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 Allow him to summon off corpse markers as well and he got a new niche. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 His thematic crew prefer to turn things directly into abominations, preventing corpse/scrap drops. It would be a bit of a strange anti-synergy. I'm not really sure making him a consistent abomination summoner does much but make him feel like ramos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apes-ma Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Nukemouse said: His thematic crew prefer to turn things directly into abominations, preventing corpse/scrap drops. It would be a bit of a strange anti-synergy. I'm not really sure making him a consistent abomination summoner does much but make him feel like ramos. Agreed. I wonder if something as simple as taking the gun symbol off Unmaking would be enough? Considering the fluff (or rather my assumptions about the fluff...) of this attack iut DOES seem weird that it has a projectile icon in the first place. Isn't he just magically "unmaking" somebody? That's why the damage can't be reduced etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 Taking the gun symbol off of his attack would probably powerwise make him quite a bit better, but it makes his attack trigger even less useful and i think it pushes him into being completely a master with only one possible action. I would rather his unmaking remain in its current state and he get some choices on how to use his AP or an interesting aura rather than his current one so leaving him on the field is more tempting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apes-ma Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 5 minutes ago, Nukemouse said: Taking the gun symbol off of his attack would probably powerwise make him quite a bit better, but it makes his attack trigger even less useful and i think it pushes him into being completely a master with only one possible action. I would rather his unmaking remain in its current state and he get some choices on how to use his AP or an interesting aura rather than his current one so leaving him on the field is more tempting. Hmmm yeah that's a good point. I think that some more choices over his AP is a good thing for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperFly TNT Posted September 29, 2017 Report Share Posted September 29, 2017 I think there's a place for a Levi summoning upgrade despite the preference and efficiency of getting Abominations via attacks. I've littered many games with scrap markers from my own Abominations dying and wished I had some way to use them. Perhaps there's a way to expand his summon upgrade by coupling it with the Pariah upgrades? Ex. Being able to summon from a corpse marker if you also have Pariah of Bone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Leveticus has very stable and decent range damage. His channel nerf was compensated with Ultimate Demise which gives unresistable damage. He's not suppose to hunt masters and high wound models. He's a redeploying skirmisher, summoning aboms off of weak models. He bas access to Mech Rider, Belles and Necropunks which are very good models. He is a very potent master and his cache of 1 is not an issue IMHO. Ashes is a super strong model because of disguised and immunity to conditions. Most big beaters can be paralyzed etc. While you have to beat Ashes to death. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apes-ma Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 On 30/09/2017 at 12:29 AM, SuperFly TNT said: I think there's a place for a Levi summoning upgrade despite the preference and efficiency of getting Abominations via attacks. I've littered many games with scrap markers from my own Abominations dying and wished I had some way to use them. Perhaps there's a way to expand his summon upgrade by coupling it with the Pariah upgrades? Ex. Being able to summon from a corpse marker if you also have Pariah of Bone? I wonder if including the ability to summon aboms off corpse/scrap markers for Bone/Iron (respectively) on the Pariah upgrades would be too much? I suspect not (although it would obviously totally invalidate his summoning upgrade, the name of which escapes me - From Ash?!). As for Errata I don't know how I'd do it, but I would love to be able to use Hans without feeling like I've handicapped myself. Give him a head shot type trigger? Crit strike? Adaptive? Something like that... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Since his abominations are both flesh and metal, I think his summon upgrade should allow him to use both scrap/corpse markers to summon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 This is probably a really silly and crazy idea. But what if it required a low unsuited TN, but needed both a corpse and a scrap within say 6 inches? Like on a 6 of any suit summon, but you need one of each marker for it to work? It would make it a rather unique summoning method and wyrd definitely seems to like the idea each master should summon in a different way. Except maybe somer teeth jones, he has both kirai and levi's summoning methods! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_C Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Nukemouse said: This is probably a really silly and crazy idea. But what if it required a low unsuited TN, but needed both a corpse and a scrap within say 6 inches? Like on a 6 of any suit summon, but you need one of each marker for it to work? It would make it a rather unique summoning method and wyrd definitely seems to like the idea each master should summon in a different way. Except maybe somer teeth jones, he has both kirai and levi's summoning methods! I think you would need to get more than 1 abomination from that, since it will be the most difficult summoning set up in the game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Well its just summoning without a suit on a low TN is very rare. Would it be okay if it had no TN at all? I feel like though the setup would be tough if it was 1 AP and 1 card for 2 Aboms that would be quite strong. Then again considering what Ramos can do maybe not and Abominations are all in all very similar to those little spiders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted October 2, 2017 Report Share Posted October 2, 2017 Sorry, but if the summon would require both scrap and corpse marker, it would be in fact almost unplayable. It's actually a 2ss upgrade that I'm not sure how often is seen. You need now a 9to summon an Abomination. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 I would bring back a powered up channel because it's either this or going through a complete redesign. To me is quite impossible to make a beatstick not a beatstick without making him bad or redesign. The perk of play leveticus, apart making him die very turn (and he must die because it's is perk), it's to hit things hard and summon killing things. So the old channel mean making him 6 ap and this is a bit unacceptable. Agreed. So I will say it could be acceptable to make him use it as much as he wants but he can get the + flip either on hit or damage at his choice. You don't get the + on bith flips and you will be able to use it 3 times (6 wounds) before he dies so he would be about 50% more effective than now but a bit more flexible. Regarding from ash, it's bad and if it has to be taken need to be less difficult to pull out. Also do you really want to use your tactical action for that instead of drawing 2 cards, repo or summon a waif? Also it cost 2ss and this makes it ludicrously expensive. Regarding the new upgrades, people find not so good, I think they are good. It gives Leveticus a chance to play melee more aggressively especially if you take both so you can afford to leave him on thr table instead of summoning the waif since you can resummon her later. So is more viable to pull a game like sac a undead, pop leve, stabbity stab and then leave it there so he makes 2 DMG to anyone killing him and summon abominations if that kills other models. I think he asks a strong question. Are you going to kill the old man and take 2 dmg to everyone there or leave it be and then risk another round of stabbity stab with a potential 8 DMG on serious? And more aboms? The second upgrade offer a scheme control device, since you can and will remove enemy schemes and a tool to replenish your waifs. So you don't feel bad every time you use a tactical action other than summoning the waif. Up Leveticus combat potential by a bit and he is golden. If he can do let's say from 6 to 8 damage reliably I would be happy with that. His big hiring pool that most people see as great, I could really skip that. Yes it's bad because it does invalidate people purchases, but if the master is invalidated instead altogether, isn't worse? Since no one will play it ever as with that the large collection of off-faction models bought? And yes you can still play it for fun, but I'm a bad person and I also want a fair chance to win and compete. If I am in to be a punch ball I'll rather not play at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Channel affecting hit or damage would make cover more effective against him. He would have to take + to hit vs cover, but could get + to damage against foes in the open. An interesting design choice. Ive been wondering what old channel with 1 min on unmaking would be like. If there is a second errata maybe larger changes are better though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 Or you take both at the hefty price of 4 wounds. Meaning you will be able to take channel 3 times but last time will affect only to hit or to damage, since you do not have enough wounds to use it the 4th time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thana. Posted October 20, 2017 Report Share Posted October 20, 2017 The idea that Leveticus and A&D are in any way subpar is pretty wild to me... grass must always be greener I guess :P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, Thana. said: The idea that Leveticus and A&D are in any way subpar is pretty wild to me... grass must always be greener I guess :P. I played some Levi games and I use a ton of Ashes and the only thing I`d call Ashes subpar is maybe Yasunori but apart from that hes super solid and Levi seems super good too when I played with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, Thana. said: The idea that Leveticus and A&D are in any way subpar is pretty wild to me... grass must always be greener I guess :P. Ashes and dust is fine. Expensive but completely worth it. Leveticus is just one step below being good. It was too good and was nerfed too hard. So in comparison of other masters is lackluster. Because he can reposition and come back from the death as much as he wants but if you don't kill stuff or support the crew he's just mucking around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 6 hours ago, Kaos said: Ashes and dust is fine. Expensive but completely worth it. Leveticus is just one step below being good. It was too good and was nerfed too hard. So in comparison of other masters is lackluster. Because he can reposition and come back from the death as much as he wants but if you don't kill stuff or support the crew he's just mucking around. He can ignore SS, reduction, htk and htw. He has ca7. He can get aboms/cards/stones if he kills something. So its all about the cards which is kind of like most damaging masters work. He also doesn't need support and comes with extra activations "for free" I seriously think if Hamelin was changed, I would single master him. He was also a super high pick at the ITC so I think you are undervalueing him. I'd say he's a solid Tier 1 master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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