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Jordon

How is Tara's Bury Mechanic Post Wave 5?

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So right off the bat. I realize this is probably not the most efficient way to play competitive Tara and I get that. However it seems like every wave she gets a little bit more options when it comes to her bury mechanic. I'm basically just curious what the best list/tactics would be in order to make bury as good as it can be. Between the recent errata and the new upgrades with the Talos. Can we actually make an offensive bury list work now?

How can we make this work? What models do we bring, and how valid is this method of play? 

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Sooo... offensive bury shouldnt be restricted to one model buried. And shouldnt be a simple Duel.

so what are we looking at.

Death marshall

Aionius on severe

Donkey Rider

Hannahs upgrade

Talos

 

Models being able to copy from those:

lazarus can copy talos bury.

Hannah can copy lazarus copy to copy talos bury.

Hannah can copy death marshall bury.

hannah can copy malifaux child copy to copy taras copy to copy  any bury action of an buried model.

tara can copy bury actions of buried models.

Malifaux child can copy taras copy of buried models with bury actions.

So... offensive buries are rather bound to expensive models ore need a lot of setup.

BUT are possible. My guess would be hannah, lazarus and talos as your 3 offensive bury models and then a bunch of void wretches.

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I disagree. I think that offensive bury is still best against specific targets. When you're offensively burying, you're generally spending resources that could be spent attacking instead attempting to bury, so generally not causing damage.

Also, copying actions, while it can be valuable, is more resource-intensive than doing the action with the model that actually possesses it.

This all speaks to it being inefficient.

I find it better to either surgically try to remove problem models, knowing you have the cards to do it (or make them fight hard to stop you) or use Glimpse like a weaker version of Horror duels to drain their hand. Having an expensive, small crew like the above probably means you're not forcing a high duel count, so would be on your back foot with your chosen strategy.

 

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So it seems like no matter how many band aids are applied. Glimpse still seems to be the main problem in getting an offensive bury to work effectively. Not being able to control when an enemy model fails a simple duel or where that model ends up unburying  seems to be the biggest point of frustration in using this as anything other than a secondary effect.

I do like the idea of thinking of it as more of a horror duel to deplete someone's hand but I do wish it could be used as more of a central mechanic. 

So what exactly does the Talos bring to Tara then? It's a pretty solid beater but Outcasts have enough of those on hand. Is there some other purpose I'm not seeing?

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Offensive burying in a reliable way is a bad idea because it's better than paralyze. It's almost essentially an automatic death strike at best, or better than paralyze at worst, because you actually get to remove the model from the table. There are very good reasons Tara, and in fact all models who can offensively bury cannot do it reliably.

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I feel like Death Marshals can do it somewhat reliably. Especially since you need to pass a wp vs wp duel in order to get out and even if you win, the marshal has 2AP to get you back in the box. Obviously killing the Marshal is not overly difficult so theres that but it's still a lot more reliable than glimpse. Lady J also has a new ability that is incredibly reliable. It just so happens that she rather cleave models in half rather than bury them

I get that it can be powerful but by having so many hoops to jump through it makes it too difficult to use as a primary mechanic. Perhaps it just wasn't meant as such but it doesn't seem that way given the consistent boosts in offensive bury abilities each wave.

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Even if glimpse buried enemies only burying one sucks. Nothing beasts revelation is clearly meant to make fast models fail glimpse but nobody would seriously take :-fatewp over 2 damage unless that would kill them. At least if he could have used it three times foes would risk taking high damage to avoid it.

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Is it worth making an enemy model fast for the dead of winter debuff? TN15 is not exactly easy to pass and once buried, void wreches can actually make decent threats thanks to the new upgrade changing their void maw. Not to mention that they get :+fate:+fate against fast models making them fairly accurate. It's definitely risky but I feel like it's more of a reward now that it was previously. 

The Talos can also take some attacks but honestly I feel like needing a 10 for 2 damage on an 8ss model is not really worth it unless you have absolutely nothing else to be doing. 

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Mostly not worth to make opponents fast to reduce their WP unless its Pandora and she allready activated this turn.

Talos is Kind of a tank, takes a charge to the face but has armor and Terrifying and if you can keep him alive he just "Omnomnoms" that nasty alpha-Teddy and is back at full health again.

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And talos is kind of our offensive bury model. imean hes like a nastier death marshal who can damage buried models without them being able to resist. Its just thats hes one model and kinda expensive.

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Giving enemies fast is only good if you are doing a bubble of death. Take Karina so they take damage on activating, montresor to pull em all in and penalize wp further, throw in models like pride or whatever then hope for the best. Despite lacking monty ressur tara does it better using hanged, jaakana ubume, rotten belles, nurses, crooligans, yin and generally the stronger access to wp moves.

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I feel like I've been making an offensive bury list work from the get go, but some of the new stuff is too good not to take.
The general Idea is to make a crew that works well without a hand and then destroy your opponents hand through simple duels.

Tara - Knowledge of Eternity, Out of Time, Emptiness, Dead of Winter

Karina - Summoning upgrade 

Nothing Beast - Void Shield

Scion of the void - Scramble

2x void Wretch

2x Death Marshal

Tara and the Scion can make getting burried a really scary thing so just keep forcing tests until the opponents hand is wasted. Most of this force isn't reliant on cheating cards for thier own defence so you can give them to a tarpitting Noting Beast. Nothing Beast loves being Defensive +1 or higher and becomes an amazing tar pit with it's void shield.  Choose carefully how to use your offensive cards. 

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24 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

I feel like I've been making an offensive bury list work from the get go, but some of the new stuff is too good not to take.
The general Idea is to make a crew that works well without a hand and then destroy your opponents hand through simple duels.

Tara - Knowledge of Eternity, Out of Time, Emptiness, Dead of Winter

Karina - Summoning upgrade 

Nothing Beast - Void Shield

Scion of the void - Scramble

2x void Wretch

2x Death Marshal

Tara and the Scion can make getting burried a really scary thing so just keep forcing tests until the opponents hand is wasted. Most of this force isn't reliant on cheating cards for thier own defence so you can give them to a tarpitting Noting Beast. Nothing Beast loves being Defensive +1 or higher and becomes an amazing tar pit with it's void shield.  Choose carefully how to use your offensive cards. 

So what generally is everything doing in this list? I take it the NB is there to bring the pain and Karina is there to summon. Is the scion mostly there as your scheme runner? What do you have the wretches and marshals doing?

Also do you ever find it worth putting fast on models to increase the TN of glimpse?

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18 minutes ago, Jordon said:

So what generally is everything doing in this list? I take it the NB is there to bring the pain and Karina is there to summon. Is the scion mostly there as your scheme runner? What do you have the wretches and marshals doing?

Also do you ever find it worth putting fast on models to increase the TN of glimpse?

What i like about this list is that everything can do multiple roles. 
Tara can kind of do everything, force bury tests, run schemes, smack around non combat oriented masters etc.
Karina, usually finds some decent cover nearish the middle of the table and hunkers down to summon, shoot or harm buried things. Late game she can sheme run as she is an enforcer.

Death Marshals can hit about their weight class IMO with Pine box. They also are decent at running schemes thanks to finish the job. Hard to wound means you don't have to spend much in the way of cards to force your opponent on to - damage flips.

Void Wretches scheme run and heal buried friends. They can attack buried enemies if they haven't got much else to do. If the Scion is buried they can focus and steal her attack.  

Nothing Beast usually goes into the middle and give itself defensive +1 or more, and spams out unfocused attacks for bury tests and the odd damage spike if you are lucky. With a 50mm base and 3" :meleeit can tie up a lot of models and be an absolute pain to remove. 

The Scion you can play really aggressively daring your opponent to attack it so you can just bury it. I use her get buried take 3 damage condition and her attack that deals damage equal to damage the model has suffered (to max of 3). She can also be used to redistribute a buried Nothing beast which is quite great. She can also get a lot of movement out of Blink + Scramble so she can late game scheme run. 

The conditions that cause damage when a model are buried are really great for Frame for murder which is very common in GG17. 

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