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Jordon

So about that Ice Golem

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29 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Ummm no, not since M2E launched. It was even a big point about how good the Ice Golem was and how it was finally worth taking when the second edition launched.

...

 

 

As for the ice golem, what's its melee range? Of late I have come to respect the 3" range and its intangible benefits to survivability. What if, like Lord Chompy Bits, he had a 3" to engage while holding at arm's length, as well as the 1" smash? You could summon him quite close and hope to get him a 3AP activation before he died (removing slow or weathering the hits) or summon and stick him into asymmetric engagement to protect him from melee and ranged?

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2 hours ago, Nick86 said:

I've done some theory crafting about taking the Ice Golem with Sandeep and making him Incorporeal. Combining that with the Golem using Sandeep's 6" place or his drag and heal, I think there may be some utility there. Considering you can now summon Banasuva much more easily, it's something I think will be fun to try. The Golem's bash attack always seems to be such a suprise to my opponents, I think Sandeep is able to cover some of the Golem's weaknesses.

I have to admit I was bummed when I re-read the Raspy summon upgrade and realized that the Golem and Snowstorm cant use the 0 action heal. It's only the blessed, silent ones, acolytes, and dancers. Yet another opportunity to improve the Golem lost

The golem couldn't use Sandeep's 6" place bc he's not an academic and he's an enforcer.  Only Academics and minions can borrow Deep's actions.  I guess you could take Tutelage now, but that's a total waste to force a bad model to be average.

And its the 6" place which would def be most useful for him, not he incorporeal.  

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1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Ummm no, not since M2E launched. It was even a big point about how good the Ice Golem was and how it was finally worth taking when the second edition launched.

Hue.

Unless you're serious, in which case I'd really be interested to know how you've seen him used to a greater effect than other models he competes with.

19 minutes ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

Only Academics and minions can borrow Deep's actions.

That's only for the 6in place zero action.

 

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4 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Hey, don't pin that one on me! :huh:

Fixed it, was having trouble quoting things from two different pages, so I tried quoting your quote. Didn't work

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1 hour ago, BFOmega said:

Fixed it, was having trouble quoting things from two different pages, so I tried quoting your quote. Didn't work

The only way I can get it to work is by using the big "+" button next to the Quote button to multi-quote, and then making sure I'm looking at the last page when I press the button to copy all the quotes. And if a new page pops while I'm writing a reply, it still doesn't work.

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3 hours ago, Jordon said:

Sandeep can make any model better. So while I do think if your willing to invest so much into making the golem viable you can succeed in covering some of his weaknesses. However why not just take Joss and invest in him? You'll end up getting better results with a better model.

Besides Incorporeal doesn't exactly fix the problem. The problem is Df2 and just getting pinged to death by anything that even looks at you. Even most 4ss models can make a significant dent in this model when focused upon.

The only thing I've seen to actually greatly boost the golem was a metal gamin. Unfortunately with the way protection of metal works you'll never get it to work for long. It has to be one of the most frustrating abilities and I've almost never gotten it to work outside of Raspy who simply sits there in one spot for the entire game.

I agree, Joss is much  better,  Im just crafting in an attempt to get some more use out of one of my favorite models.

I agree that Df2 is his problem, although i understand why its there (for Raspy to blast off) it does make him pretty poor

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Generally agree with the Ice Golem thoughts, even as a summon its more for fun and theme then as a winning play, I mean it could but...

It's simply slow with a near auto hit Df, armor is relatively easy to bypass and against Arcanists many stack some anti-armor already compounding the problem.  Sure it has a crushing attack which is amazingly difficult to get against a worthwhile target and Toss which has limited utility (even in new Sandeep lists IMO) but that is not near enough.  Basically significant array of Arcanist models do the Golem better for either less points, the same + extra or more and they bring a lot more with them as a result.

I think its the worst model in Arcanists simply because it can be taken by any master and is not , it is universally sub-sub-par.

Mouse ranks second for general uselessness, overly expensive and brings nothing to Ironsides terrible model but its narrow availability means the Golem edges it out.

Essence of Power is actually not horrible but faces the problem that multiple masters have great totems (notably Raspy, Sandeep, Ramos, Colette, Marcus) and the masters with OK totems (Kaeris and Mei) don't get anything more from EoP and finally poor Toni has the above mentioned awful Mouse and for her EoP is not much better.  Basically the masters where EoP would be good have better totmes and those that could use a solid totem don't want the poor EoP.

Cojo has to rate as a bad model, he simply does not get a solid look in even the Marcus lists because so many other models do better and more for similar points.

The Slate Ridge Mauler is the last model I struggle to find a place for, its OK and maybe even average with the dancing bear buff but he's strictly a Marcus take in Arcanists and the Beastlord has so many Beast options across the factions I find simply why??.....

Gunsmiths are OK, niche and need support but they can do the job.  Really suffer being a 7-cost model that should be 6.5 and in the same faction as the Dec Acolyte which is a 7-cost model that probably should be 7.5.

Baring book 5 which I have not thoroughly explored most of the other Arcanist models have some place and book 5 seems solid and actually saves at least one other previous drudge model.

The Poison Gamin was more or less non-competitive but the sudden potential niche take Marcus poison list has given it new life.

Somewhat true also of the Scorpius which was not much to mention as it was fragile and needed specific support to work, but now poison can be an Arcanist thing.

Kudra also has an interesting place with book 5 releases, she is not a great henchman and now has furhter Sandeep specific competition but with the possibility of poison having a list design she may find a role because she is cheap and can get a look based on that.

A couple of models are OK but find themselves rarely featuring in my lists because other models do better at specific tasks for the same cost.

The Captain is a good model but I find he's low on my henchman list, simply to expensive for what he brings.

Fire Gamin are borderline, burning is not as big a danger as I'd like and the Fire Gamin is often edged out by the Ice, Metal or Wind depending what I want to do, also Rail Workers and Spiders feature here, but it does bring ranged its just the damage is so poor, average.

 

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The only other way I've gotten any use from the Golem is through blade and claw and running it with the blessed who can zip across the board and tag out for the golem. The only downside is that it cannot be used turn 1 which I guess I understand why but I just wish the golem could be the exception lol. 

Oh and using kill switch to make him into a mini nuke. The only challenge is actually getting him to combat before exploding. 

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10 hours ago, Jordon said:

My issue with toss is that by spending AP doing that your spending even longer to get into the action. Having my 10ss model not see melee until turn 3 or 4 (and in all likelihood, half killed or more) doesn't feel like a good investment. We can get access cheaper pushes without having to sideline our heavy hitters. Besides we have acolytes who can start the game basically where you need them to be anyway.

I agree, but when comparing the ice golem you have to take it into account as to something that he does. I used him in friendly games only, and what I did once is have him throw 2 ice gamin upfield, and then have snowstorm walk forward and do her 8" place on on rasputina so she's in position to cast. That way you have some ice gamin upfield who can put up there aura for the acolytes or take position. Then snowstorm can do the place again in turn 2 and have the ice golem charge. Also, when comparing him to the other beaters, he does benefit from the ice gamins aura giving him a min damage 4 with slow.

However, thats not how i like to play rasputina, and I generally prefer to have the (0) action to reposition rasputina or to get her safe. Df2 definetly hurts him too much as everything is going to hit him, as said you can get around the slowness as snowstorm has that 8" place, which including her base is more 10" of movement. When looking at 10ss models, I'd rather take the emissary and he'll perform better in almost any if not all situations. I also always take snowstorm so there's not always room for another 10 stones, as I also like to take an acolyte. You can even take a december acolyte with imbued energies for 10 stones. He's extremely mobile, and he does less damage but ml7 is nice and he has a decent defensive stat + eat your fill. His mobility allows him to be relatively safe and also allows him to pick his target more easily, making eat your fill more reliant. So yeah, as stated before, I think there are just too many better options out there.

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I think in a summoning list, you choose to summon the Golem for the explosion damage. Hopefully it can do some damage beforehand, but 3 dg on death is pretty good, it's a half Papa Loco :)

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Once again then though, the real problem comes down to Rasputina and finding a space to put this upgrade in with her crowded selection of upgrades. I just don't feel like the potential to summon 1-3 models during the game comes close to the things that other upgrades give her. I would have been happier to see this upgrade come in the form of a support model for her that could do the same thing. I need Raspy to drop Ice Pillars and rain icy death on the competition. 

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I feel like it's a bit of a gamble and it warrents a bit of a tailored list to make the most out of but I do think you'll see it on certain schemes.

If I only summon a couple of gamin then it might not be worth the slot. However even if I can summon the golem just once, then it's probably a good investment.

It wont be an always include but it will be a high consideration for certain schemes/strats which I feel is the perfect balancing spot for an upgrade. It's just good enough to offer occasional diversity which is just where I like my upgrades to be.

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Also of note: Vogel may not have a model yet, but his rules are finalized and official. If he tears apart something that has armor with his trigger, he drops extra scrap. This means that he could potentially get you three scrap out of a sacrificial construct (like an Ice Gamin). Per GGxx, if you want to use him in organized event play, talk to the TO in advance and have your proxies on hand for review.

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Oh one thing to mention, from my experience the best list an Ice Golem goes into is a Henchman Hardcore one.  Teleport it to the front lines with Snow Storm with an Ice Gamin's buff up and you're laying the pain down early, and with only 4 enemy models if you kill one they're going to have a real hard time keeping it down.

In a standard game though, I hired them very rarely with Raspy but since getting Snow Storm and the Emissary I've never looked twice at it.  Being able to summon it in should change that nicely at least :) 

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17 hours ago, retnab said:

Oh one thing to mention, from my experience the best list an Ice Golem goes into is a Henchman Hardcore one.  Teleport it to the front lines with Snow Storm with an Ice Gamin's buff up and you're laying the pain down early, and with only 4 enemy models if you kill one they're going to have a real hard time keeping it down.

In a standard game though, I hired them very rarely with Raspy but since getting Snow Storm and the Emissary I've never looked twice at it.  Being able to summon it in should change that nicely at least :) 

Enforcer Brawl with Kill Switch

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I've used the put Ice golem a few times, and I've never felt it was wasted points. Granted, a one of those was with pre-nerf Colette (where he Smashed Perdita after killing Santiago. Good turn!). Even after that however, I've found value taking him with Raspy. Is he the best choice? Pretty much never. But he is fieldable. I accidentally used a DA to pull him into Smash range of a very surprised Chumpy one time, so that was a fun. 

He's still terrible, but I just wanted to show a little love for the big guy. ;-)

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My personal opinion: he was designed at the very beginning of M2E, and that was pretty much another era. As you say, further models have come out that fill that role A LOT better (in a Raspy crew, i find the Emissary really shines) plus more and more models are armor ignoring..

So yeah he suffers because when he came out Df 2 and Armor +2 plus a lot of Wds MAYBE KIND OF made some sense. It makes no sense at all - I find Df 4 models are already quite easy to kill...

The summon was an attempt to make him more useful but perhaps the designer were scared he'd be OP and they went too careful with it IMHO. Summon details:
- 1SS
- 1 Scrap Marker
- 1 of only 4 cards in the deck 11,12,13:tome and red joker
- Range 6
- It comes in with 4 damage already, and Slow (so no Smash)

It seems like it is even unlikely to happen once per game...

So I'd say the difference the summon makes is minimal. Most of the times, even if you can pull it off, it'll die horribly and hopefully blast something. Mind you, explosive demise 3 is not even THAT good compared to other similar effects (like Papa Loco or Pere) - it has only range 2" and 3 dmg.

So he's still sadly bottom of the faction...

Here's hoping for some Errata love. Not sure what can be done to encourage hiring him (if anything at all), but at least he could be made a bit more decent as a summon. Remove the extra :tome?

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3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

My personal opinion: he was designed at the very beginning of M2E, and that was pretty much another era. As you say, further models have come out that fill that role A LOT better (in a Raspy crew, i find the Emissary really shines) plus more and more models are armor ignoring..

So yeah he suffers because when he came out Df 2 and Armor +2 plus a lot of Wds MAYBE KIND OF made some sense. It makes no sense at all - I find Df 4 models are already quite easy to kill...

The summon was an attempt to make him more useful but perhaps the designer were scared he'd be OP and they went too careful with it IMHO. Summon details:
- 1SS
- 1 Scrap Marker
- 1 of only 4 cards in the deck 11,12,13:tome and red joker
- Range 6
- It comes in with 4 damage already, and Slow (so no Smash)

It seems like it is even unlikely to happen once per game...

So I'd say the difference the summon makes is minimal. Most of the times, even if you can pull it off, it'll die horribly and hopefully blast something. Mind you, explosive demise 3 is not even THAT good compared to other similar effects (like Papa Loco or Pere) - it has only range 2" and 3 dmg.

So he's still sadly bottom of the faction...

Here's hoping for some Errata love. Not sure what can be done to encourage hiring him (if anything at all), but at least he could be made a bit more decent as a summon. Remove the extra :tome?

I think I would have liked to have seen the Ice Golem Summonable with an 11+ of Tomes. Require that  it be summoned within 2 inches of an Ice Gamin and then sacrifice the Ice Gamin after summoning. Only allow a single Ice Golem to be summoned per turn.

That would make Raspy a bit less dependent on scrap but keep her from being able to spam summons.

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11 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I think I would have liked to have seen the Ice Golem Summonable with an 11+ of Tomes. Require that  it be summoned within 2 inches of an Ice Gamin and then sacrifice the Ice Gamin after summoning. Only allow a single Ice Golem to be summoned per turn.

That would make Raspy a bit less dependent on scrap but keep her from being able to spam summons.

That is a possible solution. I mean, the current amount of resources needed for summoning him are almost not even worth it...sure he can be a distraction piece but it's quite situational. Dunno, have to test it a few more times.

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A really cool (though maybe OP) mechanic to add to the Ice Golem would also be to replace his explosive demise with turning him into 1-2 (probably damaged) Ice Gamin once he dies. That would really fit thematically IMHO.

That would also go well with the idea of letting Raspy summon an Ice Golem off of Ice Gamin which I read somewhere else in the forums.

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9 hours ago, cktAvatar said:

A really cool (though maybe OP) mechanic to add to the Ice Golem would also be to replace his explosive demise with turning him into 1-2 (probably damaged) Ice Gamin once he dies. That would really fit thematically IMHO.

That would also go well with the idea of letting Raspy summon an Ice Golem off of Ice Gamin which I read somewhere else in the forums.

It might even be worth taking him in certain crews if he got an ability like "Whenever this model Wds are reduced by more than 2 during an Attack Action, it may drop a scrap marker in base contact with itself".

That will make the Ice Golem drop a minimum of 3 scrap each game. He'll probably end up with a bit more in most games though. 

He's an early threat that draws some fire that ends up providing plenty of scrap for the likes of Rasputina, Ramos, and even Mei Feng. 

I kind of chuckle at the idea of Joss breaking off chunks of Ice Golem for Ramos to turn in to spiders that the Golem then hurls up the board.

Or the Ice Golem tossing a couple of Metal Golems up field for Mei to Rail Walk herself and her crew members to.

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I would prefer the golem being worth hiring over allowing easy summoning of it. Just my two cents. Spliting into gamin wouldn't be OP at all I think. The sow does that already and if you don't want it to happen you can kill ir in tricky ways or deny it in aome other fasion.

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Allowing the Golem to place scrap markers like the new TT model Obsidian Statue (I think that's what its called) would be interesting but I don't think it would solve the issue of making the Ice Golem worth it.  I could see it being thematic to have it "pop-off" an Ice Gamin upon being hit but that Ice Gamin would have to definitely take damage. 

It would be interesting to see that Ice Golem become something like that Swamp Mother.  As the game progresses, the Ice Golem can take an action to hurt itself once per turn to summon the Ice Gamin but perhaps heal from the aura blast when an Ice Gamin dies (maybe a reason to finally bring Kudra?).  This would potentially force the Golem to have to stay up on the midst of combat if it wanted to stay around for a while.  Perhaps even give Ice Gamin within 8+ inches a built in slow trigger on their attacks. 

I could honestly see myself bringing this type of model with Raspy and maybe even Sandeep..  I know this is also playing in to the "everyone has access to activation control" game but I think it would be an interesting change to the Ice Golem.

The scary part would be seeing Rasputina summoning multiple of these per game!!

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