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Immuto that alters range


MackMcWicked

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Hi,

I had a question on change range Immuto.

We ran for the first time the other day.

Here's the scenario 

Casters were lowering thier spell range thus lowering thier spell TN.  They  then added a number of effects until the TN equaled out TN to hit the Fatemaster character.

In essence they reduce the range allowing them to beef up the spell without much consequence, besides less range and also eliminating the problem of shooting into melee.

What am I doing wrong ?

I'm aware of Grimiore rules and how they need to be attuned to use said immutos.

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If the character took the "Alter range" immuto in his grimoire's immutos or gained it from a talent, he can absolutely do that.
Keep in mind that if the spell's range has a :ranged, it must still be in the ranges with a :ranged and same if it has a :melee
You can't go from the :ranged ranges to the :melee ranges and vice versa.
If the spell has no range symbols (like elemental engulf), then there is no limitations this way.

Nevermind it was V1, in V2 you can.

But still, to do what you described, your Dabbler needs to have taken with his 3 starting immutos
-Alter range immuto
-One elemental immuto
-Increase damage immuto (or equivalent immuto to increase damages)

And to properly cast the spell his needs a X of :tome to meet the TN of his opponent's DF/WP, so less than a 1/4 chance.

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2 hours ago, MackMcWicked said:

Hi,

I had a question on change range Immuto.

We ran for the first time the other day.

Here's the scenario 

Casters were lowering thier spell range thus lowering thier spell TN.  They  then added a number of effects until the TN equaled out TN to hit the Fatemaster character.

In essence they reduce the range allowing them to beef up the spell without much consequence, besides less range and also eliminating the problem of shooting into melee.

I think generally, if you're reducing the range of a spell and considering that "without consequence ", you need to be getting in to more gun fights.

Since spells can't be used as weapons (for charging and disengaging strikes), at best you're indirectly trading AP used to walk up to the target for more damage.

So were all of your spell casters fixated on having grimoire that were just:

  • Some magia
  • Increase Damage immuto 
  • Alter Range immuto
  • Some other immuto

?

 

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4 hours ago, MackMcWicked said:

Hi,

I had a question on change range Immuto.

We ran for the first time the other day.

Here's the scenario 

Casters were lowering thier spell range thus lowering thier spell TN.  They  then added a number of effects until the TN equaled out TN to hit the Fatemaster character.

In essence they reduce the range allowing them to beef up the spell without much consequence, besides less range and also eliminating the problem of shooting into melee.

What am I doing wrong ?

I'm aware of Grimiore rules and how they need to be attuned to use said immutos.

Would help our evaluations to know which Magia were being used for this... but in general, yes, cutting the Range is a valid way to drop a spell's TN, thus allowing damage or duration to be increased or something else to be added, etc.

However, I don't know that I'd refer to having to be at 1-yard range to pull this off as being a "little-consequence" situation: that's within engagement range of, well, pretty much everything... so....

I also concur with Solkan on the "more gunfights" thing... especially against Gunfighters, who also don't randomize when firing into engagements... >:)

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I think your players are missing one important part about how magic works in this game (for a starting character).
If they want to successfuly cast a spell, to hit, let's say a DF 8 minion and they ajust the TN accordingly with their immutos, and they have an AV of 5 with Int+Sorcery, they need to flip a 3:tome, not any other 3. Only a  :tome with a value of 3 or more will result in a succesful spell, any other suit will have the action wasted.
So it works, it's powerful, but it will force them to cheat a lot to get the right suit, or focus to increase the chances of getting a :tome, but then it's only one attack action in the turn.

On the other hand, a melee character with the same AV of 5 with might + melee, will need a 3 of any suit to get more or less the same result, depending on his weapon.

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Also: if being at 1 yard seems to be of little consequence to the spellcaster, you might want to consider bumping the rank level of the things that get that close.

Then again, more gunfights will also make the consequence more noticeable-it doesn't take more than 2 min damage hits from stock firearms (pistol or rifle) to put a Fated character in danger of critical effects, if you have to break cover to get in close to a gunfighter or rifleman team, you might not make it.

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7 hours ago, MackMcWicked said:

2 of four players.

As far as I can tell, there's a lot of the magic system which is balanced using "opportunity cost".  The player has chosen to get a magic gun they can use as a melee weapon (but not completely as a melee weapon), instead of all of the other things they could do.  And keep in mind that an enlarged hunting knife is 2/4/5, and a 3 scrip pistol is 2/3/4.

Elemental Engulf is two points harder than Elemental Projectile but doesn't have :ranged on its range (so it doesn't randomize, and doesn't suffer cover), but that opens up a different immuto slot.  Summon Gamin with the choice of two or three elemental immuto would have a lot more utility while still being able to cause damage.  And then there's mind control...

Anyway, don't forget the downsides for magic use, such as weakness to Counter Spell and attracting Witch Hunters.  Every damned fool that picks up a spell book seems to think that the law and the Guild no longer matter.  :ram

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8 hours ago, solkan said:

Anyway, don't forget the downsides for magic use, such as weakness to Counter Spell and attracting Witch Hunters.  Every damned fool that picks up a spell book seems to think that the law and the Guild no longer matter.  :ram

...and the ones who get away from Malifaux City don't understand that the people who control places like Ripley or Promise are quite ruthless in making sure that nothing and no one threatens their hold.

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What seems imbalanced about Alter Range is that when you have a ranged attack, being engaged is supposed to be a drawback. Instead your spell becomes more powerful because you are able to drop the TN via Alter Range, then compensate for the lowered TN with other immutos. Is this correct or am I misunderstanding how it works? 

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16 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

What seems imbalanced about Alter Range is that when you have a ranged attack, being engaged is supposed to be a drawback. Instead your spell becomes more powerful because you are able to drop the TN via Alter Range, then compensate for the lowered TN with other immutos. Is this correct or am I misunderstanding how it works? 

Being in engagement range IS a draw back, but the spell becomes easier to cast. 

Example: Fated is attempting to cast Elemental Projectile (TN 3T). Because it's an Elemental Spell, the Fated adds Spirit (+4 TN, total TN 7T) However, the Fated only has a Sorcery skill of 1, meaning she needs to flip at least 6T to cast the spell. The Fated decides to remedy this by applying Alter Range to reduce the spell's range from 5:ranged to 3:meleeand thus reduce the TN by -2 (Total TN 5T). Now the Fated only needs 4T to cast the spell making it about a 1/4 chance unless she has the card she needs in her hand. The only downside to this is that now she is at risk of getting hit by The Killer Bunny. 

In this scenario, the Fated is sacrificing her already limited range, to make the spell easier to cast. She could also apply Increased Damage once to increase the spell's damage to 1/2/4 but the TN returns to 7T.

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4 hours ago, Steamtastic Vagabond said:

Being in engagement range IS a draw back, but the spell becomes easier to cast. 

Example: Fated is attempting to cast Elemental Projectile (TN 3T). Because it's an Elemental Spell, the Fated adds Spirit (+4 TN, total TN 7T) However, the Fated only has a Sorcery skill of 1, meaning she needs to flip at least 6T to cast the spell. The Fated decides to remedy this by applying Alter Range to reduce the spell's range from 5:ranged to 3:meleeand thus reduce the TN by -2 (Total TN 5T). Now the Fated only needs 4T to cast the spell making it about a 1/4 chance unless she has the card she needs in her hand. The only downside to this is that now she is at risk of getting hit by The Killer Bunny. 

In this scenario, the Fated is sacrificing her already limited range, to make the spell easier to cast. She could also apply Increased Damage once to increase the spell's damage to 1/2/4 but the TN returns to 7T.

I understand how the immuto works ( I think ). It just seems too powerful to completely counteract the disadvantage of not being able to attack AND then additionally you free up 6TN worth of other immuto modifiers. Removing the inability to attack because you had a ranged attack is a benefit, not a drawback. 

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3 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

I understand how the immuto works ( I think ). It just seems too powerful to completely counteract the disadvantage of not being able to attack AND then additionally you free up 6TN worth of other immuto modifiers. Removing the inability to attack because you had a ranged attack is a benefit, not a drawback. 

You're glossing over the bit where magic users typically don't want to be in close combat. The people that like to be in close combat tend to have better damage spreads, higher accuracy, and no reliance on suits. Sure, they go from not being able to attack (provided they have the immuto) to having an attack option, but they're still not exactly in a happy place. Getting up to 6 knocked off of of the TN doesn't solve the suit problem, and if they're using up all of that discount to bump up their spell effects they're still not in their happy place. It becomes even nastier if the Fatemaster uses the tools available to them and puts the spellcaster on a negative.

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8 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

You're glossing over the bit where magic users typically don't want to be in close combat. The people that like to be in close combat tend to have better damage spreads, higher accuracy, and no reliance on suits. Sure, they go from not being able to attack (provided they have the immuto) to having an attack option, but they're still not exactly in a happy place. Getting up to 6 knocked off of of the TN doesn't solve the suit problem, and if they're using up all of that discount to bump up their spell effects they're still not in their happy place. It becomes even nastier if the Fatemaster uses the tools available to them and puts the spellcaster on a negative.

It just felt wrong to me that adding a benefit to a spell ( Hey look, I can attack now instead of not attack ) would lower the target number of a spell instead of raise it. 2/4/5 is a solid spread ( 1/2/3 raised by 3 steps ), or you could add a variety of other effects depending on your immuto options. And you still have the bonus of being able to raise your range with spells. It seems like a lot of flexibility/power for one immuto to offer.

 

 

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2 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

It just felt wrong to me that adding a benefit to a spell ( Hey look, I can attack now instead of not attack ) would lower the target number of a spell instead of raise it. 2/4/5 is a solid spread ( 1/2/3 raised by 3 steps ), or you could add a variety of other effects depending on your immuto options. And you still have the bonus of being able to raise your range with spells. It seems like a lot of flexibility/power for one immuto to offer.

It still ends up having a TN of 7:tome, on top of being resisted by Wp (so when targeting a Fatemaster character also need to beat their Wp + Rank). Let's say your AV is a respectable 5 (to cast), and you're facing a Zombie Swordsman. Normally, just to get the spell off you need a 2:tome, but because the Wp + Rank of the ZS is 11, you need a 6:tome and to be at 1 yard from that ZS just to tie it.

Compare that to your group's brawler with the Rail Hammer (similar damage spread). Let's say that their AV is also a 5 to put you on equal footing on TN. They get to hit the ZS for any 6+, which is roughly four times more likely (33 success cards versus 9).

 

The thing is, as I mentioned before, the magic user doesn't want to be in close combat. Zombie Swordsmen force you to defend on a negative flip against an 11, and they can flurry (attack 3 times for 2 AP). If you don't go defensive (which costs a card and AP) or do something similar, you're much more likely to get hit than not, and that Zombie Swordsman is likely to chew straight through you. Your starting gear and Pursuit focus is about spells and spellcasting.

Where you (as a magic user) don't want to be in close combat, the brawler does. Their starting equipment includes armor. Their low level Pursuit Talents are combat oriented. Guards reduce damage on a defensive trigger, Scrappers get to the fight faster, Drudges don't start with armor unless they took a pneumatic limb, but they can outright ignore critical wounds/passing out from critical wounds (or gain 2 wounds to their profile). The magic user gets better with their spell, to include potentially getting the suit built in (which lets you hit as often as the others).

So not only is the brawler much more likely to hit in close combat, they also don't care about the Zombie Swordsman's attacks in the same way that your magic user does. The ZS might flurry and hit the guard 3 times and do a total of 0 damage. Where it can flurry and drop a magic user in a single round, it needs two or three rounds to get the Drudge to the point where the Drudge is taking critical effects that would normally knock Fated characters out of the fight--and the Drudge can ignore those effects unless they involve instant death. The Scrapper, just for charging in and swinging a couple of times might have increased their Df value (attack trigger for their Pursuit), making it easier for them to avoid being hit back.

Edited by spooky_squirrel
updated for card count info and low level magic pursuit info
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3 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

It just felt wrong to me that adding a benefit to a spell ( Hey look, I can attack now instead of not attack ) would lower the target number of a spell instead of raise it. 2/4/5 is a solid spread ( 1/2/3 raised by 3 steps ), or you could add a variety of other effects depending on your immuto options. And you still have the bonus of being able to raise your range with spells. It seems like a lot of flexibility/power for one immuto to offer.

One way to look at it is that the character knows Immuto that allows her to manipulate the energy of the spell.

Your average spell requires a certain amount of magical power, but a character with Alter Range can either add more power to the spell (represented by a higher TN) to increase its effective range, or she can dial that power down (represented by a lower TN) from a bolt of power into something more akin to a knife-like stab.

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I think part of what I didn't explain is that I wasn't saying Alter Range makes you into a melee machine or to forget about melee focused characters because of it. I was comparing the utility and power level of Alter Range to other immutos because that is a much more fair comparison. I didn't mean to imply that somehow a caster who took Alter Range would be out fighting melee characters in melee. It would be silly to compare them. I don't think I actually did compare them, but now that is on the table.

My intended focus was that you gain a benefit from reducing the TN of the spell, and you can gain a benefit from reducing the range of the spell with Alter Range. Compare this to Increase AP as an example. Lower the TN ( an advantage ), increase the AP ( a drawback ). Or say Reduce AP. Reduce the AP ( advantage ), increase the TN ( drawback ). Or Reduce Damage. Lower the TN ( an advantage ) , lower the damage ( a drawback). It seemed to be common formula and logic behind immutos, a plus and a minus. In the case of being caught in melee, it is plus/plus for Alter Range. The immuto is plus/plus, not being caught in melee. I agree that is usually not a good time for said caster.

Anyway, sorry for any frustrations anyone has had in replying to this. I understood what people have been saying, I just wasn't specific enough that my issue was that if you are caught in melee ( or with a proper character set up, wanted to be in melee ) , then Alter Range is pure profit, with no drawback unto itself.

 

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10 hours ago, DarthBrooks said:

Anyway, sorry for any frustrations anyone has had in replying to this. I understood what people have been saying, I just wasn't specific enough that my issue was that if you are caught in melee ( or with a proper character set up, wanted to be in melee ) , then Alter Range is pure profit, with no drawback unto itself.

Yes, that's true.

It's a pretty handy Immuto for someone with Elemental spells.

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One thing to also keep in mind is the fact that it does take up one of your 3 Immuto spots in a Grimoire.  It does have a cost to it.  Then you need a Elemental type to go with your Range attack at which point you only have a single slot left in your repository.  Sure that means you have a lot of flexibility in range, but not much in damage unless you go for that immuto too but that means you are full.  What about your other magia?  Sure the Range immuto might help it but a lot of them like Extended Duration.  But if you take something else it means your damage is inflexible.  So you are trading flexibility to make sure you can use your Range attack for possibly less flexibility elsewhere.

The way I see it is as a trade, the dabbler traded the ability to be more diverse to insure their ability to harness their attack spell even up close.  Yay you are not going to be caught flat footed if engaged... but if you had an immuto that complimented your other Magia they might never have gotten into close combat with you or you might have been able to avoid the combat all together.

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Going over some combinations, I think a case could be made that the target number on Elemental Strike should be lower, perhaps as low as 1:tome or 2:tome (the progression suggests 3:tome but that doesn't seem to be worth the two point difference, unlike Engulf removing the :ranged for two points), to  compete better with Elemental Projectile when constructing combos.

That puts Elemental Strike, Focus Object (TN-4) slightly ahead of Elemental Projectile, Alter Range (TN-6 to :melee1), and makes a better case for "Why choose Elemental Strike over Elemental Projectile?" without Elemental Strike, Location Immuto, Increase Damage, Ignore Character (aka "I nuke the room/building I'm standing in") too good compared to Elemental Projectile, Increase Damage, Location Immuto, X ("Nuke a nearby building") which increasing the damage on Elemental Strike would lead to.

Disclaimer: This is presuming a Hedge Wizard, or otherwise taking care of the elemental immuto requirement.  

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