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Joachim

Cyclops vs rougarou

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5 hours ago, -Loki- said:

No, gave them Ice Walls. There’s a big difference - Walls are placed in base contact with the Cyclops while Pillars have (IIRC) a 12” range.

The limitation of base contact while not touching models or markers means they have a much smaller impact on the game than Pillars since they’re harder to position well.

Not that hard in the right crew 

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I am thinking of adding one Cyclop to my collection.

So would like to know how good is he/she? Which scenarios are perfect for this model? Can he/she be used well with other masters except Titania?

Could be great to hear all kind of experience with Cyclop. 

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I'd say the zero actions provide some very decent utility. It's not a no brainer damage dealer but more of a finesse piece.

If you get it down to 5 wounds and have a couple of decent rams in your hand you can start placing some mean blasts. The 0 lets you put up a wall between you and you opponents to prevent retaliation provided you killed the model you were charging or charged past it so you can place the markers. 

Putting retribution's eye on it can give you an awful lot of armor-ignorig blasts.

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I find the cyclops to be really great if you have good positions for ice pillars. Also, if you go against smaller things and you can take a hit and activate when you're enraged you can really hit hard.

It usually has higher priority when I need some budget armor ignore. If you're a thematic Titania crew they are your min 3 budget beaters and their (0) with scheme markers can be really good.

I haven't taken them outside of Titania yet, so I can't judge on their value in that case. In Zoraida I go for the hooded rider now as a beater.

 

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I think every Neverborn player is aware of the Tooth-Rougarou combo and yes it's very good, even though I tend to not field that outside of Titania. I have used Kade to great effect though - yes the threat range is smaller but the damage spread is much scarier (5min damage with Depression!), and I didn't notice a big difference in terms of durability - both of them die if the opponent really want it. Don't underestimate Df 7 and Manipulative...
I've played some lists with Tooth+Rougarou AND Lilitu+Kade, and it was insane.

That being said, the drawback is that obviously you need those models to cluster up. Tooth+Rougarou is 15SS, and if you add the Emissary that's 25SS, so half your crew in just one spot. That's not ideal in a bunch of situations, both for schemes and strats, and against certain blast-crazy opponents (Wong, Rasputina etc.)
Also, to be honest, in some situations this might be overkill. Investing 15 or 25 SS to kill the one model is worth it if it is a crucial model, but can otherwise be a bit of a waste.

So it's great but not the holy grail ;)

Curious instead to hear about Cyclops - don't own them yet and haven't quite figured out exactly what they're good at, apart from the obvious ice wall.

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I'll be honest - I find the Tooth/Rougarou combo much better on paper than in practice. It's very card hungry, and one missed attack can cause a lot of the attack engine to stall. If the Lure fails, it just doesn't go off. If any of the Tooths attacks miss, it also doesn't push to get the Rougarous Pounce. To make it reliable it needs positive flips, which means an Emissary with the generic Conflux, after which you've spent a LOT on that combo, and lost your master specific Conflux.

It's a great threat, but as soon as an opponent figures out how bad it can be they will save a high card to prevent the Lure going off.

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You could do it with Lucius nearby for the :melee aura and extra attacks. No need for the emissary then. You could also put the consition o the enemy so they're not allowed to cheat.

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25 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

But that would mean I'm playing Lucius.

Which one would probably be doing anyway! :D In the one or two games per year when you are playing some other master you can leave this combo at home.

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I dislike the combo because it's 15ss altogether and my personal playstyle likes to have individually useful pieces, or pieces that do more than one thing at any given time. Lately I've been enjoying Kade in a list that includes Tooth, Barbaros, Lilitu (looooots of pushes), but the 1" engagement is definitely a downside. But Kade also hits hard by himself when he has to, which the Rougarou does not, is a Woe, which is a more useful keyword in the lists that need it than Fae is in the lists that need that, and costs 2ss less. The Tooth is useful by itself with a number of schemes, Lilitu is easily a Neverborn all-star, and Barbaros is.. I dunno where I stand on him yet. Anyways, all the models are useful for more than one thing. The Rougarou, however, kinda only does one thing... so I've dropped him.

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1 hour ago, chryspainthemum said:

I dislike the combo because it's 15ss altogether and my personal playstyle likes to have individually useful pieces, or pieces that do more than one thing at any given time. Lately I've been enjoying Kade in a list that includes Tooth, Barbaros, Lilitu (looooots of pushes), but the 1" engagement is definitely a downside. But Kade also hits hard by himself when he has to, which the Rougarou does not, is a Woe, which is a more useful keyword in the lists that need it than Fae is in the lists that need that, and costs 2ss less. The Tooth is useful by itself with a number of schemes, Lilitu is easily a Neverborn all-star, and Barbaros is.. I dunno where I stand on him yet. Anyways, all the models are useful for more than one thing. The Rougarou, however, kinda only does one thing... so I've dropped him.

I agree in part, but rougarou can put out a lot of damage if you hit the ram trigger. Also his zero pulse to push models in and then place can be really nice. He is also a minion so gets protected by gorar.

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7 hours ago, -Loki- said:

I'll be honest - I find the Tooth/Rougarou combo much better on paper than in practice. It's very card hungry, and one missed attack can cause a lot of the attack engine to stall. If the Lure fails, it just doesn't go off. If any of the Tooths attacks miss, it also doesn't push to get the Rougarous Pounce. To make it reliable it needs positive flips, which means an Emissary with the generic Conflux, after which you've spent a LOT on that combo, and lost your master specific Conflux.

It's a great threat, but as soon as an opponent figures out how bad it can be they will save a high card to prevent the Lure going off.

I want to second the idea that the combo is much better on paper than in practice. I found the biggest hardship with the combo is it requires a lot of positioning and set-up. Because Tooth's attack is "Push away" its directly away which means you have to have an enemy model between Tooth and Rougarou in pretty specific distances in relationship to eachother. I found this put one or both Tooth and Rougarou in very exposed mispositioned parts of the board. Also, to position for the legendary 7AP for the price of 1 attack the set-up usually required a turn of wasting AP walking and not charging or attacking. This could not be more telegraphed and easily countered. Also, if there's a slip in the order of operation then usually the enemy model in base to base and doesn't push which doesn't proc pounce. 

 

Still fun when it happens, just not as strong of a combo with the skill-set I have.

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Its not that hard to get off either. You can charge something with rougarou first and then charge it with tooth.

Barbaros and titania also have ways to move opponents and you can bring lures. I dont find it very hard to make it work.

 

15 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

I want to second the idea that the combo is much better on paper than in practice. I found the biggest hardship with the combo is it requires a lot of positioning and set-up. Because Tooth's attack is "Push away" its directly away which means you have to have an enemy model between Tooth and Rougarou in pretty specific distances in relationship to eachother. I found this put one or both Tooth and Rougarou in very exposed mispositioned parts of the board. Also, to position for the legendary 7AP for the price of 1 attack the set-up usually required a turn of wasting AP walking and not charging or attacking. This could not be more telegraphed and easily countered. Also, if there's a slip in the order of operation then usually the enemy model in base to base and doesn't push which doesn't proc pounce. 

 

Still fun when it happens, just not as strong of a combo with the skill-set I have

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9 minutes ago, Joachim said:

Its not that hard to get off either. You can charge something with rougarou first and then charge it with tooth.

Barbaros and titania also have ways to move opponents and you can bring lures. I dont find it very hard to make it work.

 

The double charge works well as long as the three models are perfectly in line with each other. but the lure I've found extremely hard because having the enemy model end perfectly in between the Tooth and Rougarou is hard and at that point I have to invest AP positioning to get that perfect straight line 

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1 hour ago, Joachim said:

I agree in part, but rougarou can put out a lot of damage if you hit the ram trigger. Also his zero pulse to push models in and then place can be really nice. He is also a minion so gets protected by gorar.

But you're not wrong, it is still very doable. Perhaps I came across as over skeptical and I shouldn't have. I just was taken aback the first time I tried the combo out in practice and found it was trickier than I first had thought. Still a good combo, I would love to hear more tips and tricks.

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34 minutes ago, Thimblesage said:

The double charge works well as long as the three models are perfectly in line with each other. but the lure I've found extremely hard because having the enemy model end perfectly in between the Tooth and Rougarou is hard and at that point I have to invest AP positioning to get that perfect straight line 

It doesn't have to be perfectly in between the two of them at all. It just has to end somewhere that isn't exactly 2" away from the Rougarou. The push away is up to. .1" is still a push that triggers pounce.

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3 hours ago, Thimblesage said:

The double charge works well as long as the three models are perfectly in line with each other. but the lure I've found extremely hard because having the enemy model end perfectly in between the Tooth and Rougarou is hard and at that point I have to invest AP positioning to get that perfect straight line 

You're not luring for the pounce. You lure or audience them out of position to get off your challenge or get charge lanes.

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Finally I tried Tooth+Rougarou combo in a serious game yesterday. I agree that it quite card dependent. For example, Tooth wasn't able to cast her (0) for a couple of turns. 

However, the main drawback for me was low surviability of Rougarou. Tooth got serious pressing from opponent, but her armor, HtW and some healing from Titania kept her alive for some time. Unfortunatelly, the fae wolf was killed in one turn without big efforts.

On 11.02.2018 at 12:45 AM, Joachim said:

You can charge something with rougarou first and then charge it with tooth.

I found this point as the main utility of the combo!

I think the perfect scenario when the wolf charges and engages two enemy models (not very strong models). It hits one model with his 2 attacks uses one of his (0) actions. The Tooth charges another model, tries to hit it and provoke some pounce attacks from the Rougarou. Her (0) pseudo lure can be used in order to finish one of that two models.

 

Despite of some difficulties, anyway I am really exited to try Lelu/Kade+Lilitu+Tooth combo one day^_^

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19 minutes ago, le_sphinx said:

Finally I tried Tooth+Rougarou combo in a serious game yesterday. I agree that it quite card dependent. For example, Tooth wasn't able to cast her (0) for a couple of turns. 

However, the main drawback for me was low surviability of Rougarou. Tooth got serious pressing from opponent, but her armor, HtW and some healing from Titania kept her alive for some time. Unfortunatelly, the fae wolf was killed in one turn without big efforts.

I found this point as the main utility of the combo!

I think the perfect scenario when the wolf charges and engages two enemy models (not very strong models). It hits one model with his 2 attacks uses one of his (0) actions. The Tooth charges another model, tries to hit it and provoke some pounce attacks from the Rougarou. Her (0) pseudo lure can be used in order to finish one of that two models.

 

Despite of some difficulties, anyway I am really exited to try Lelu/Kade+Lilitu+Tooth combo one day^_^

I played lilitu dopple tooth rougarou in two tournament games yesterday and it actually worked pretty well.

Titania acts as a disruption piece to audience opponents in, taunt them and that way protect rougarou. I managed to get out a very close win against a nasty nicodem list. And they worked wonders in a collect the bounty game vs kaeris. Getting 3vp from setup turn 2 on kandara and just killing off models with toot/rougarou. I audienced the emissary, put a taunt on him. Tooth then just attacked models close to rougarou, getting pounces and healing titania with the markers. If you get your pieces in the right positions it can get really powerfull.

Also with the right hand rougarou can dish out a lot of damage when you need him too. I was able to get a ram trigger when holding the red joker, giving me the plus flip and hitting the emissary for 8 damage.

I always now play primeval conflux with titania cause it is really good, but earlier I played the general conflux and that makes the combo extremely brutal. I also usually have some changelings hanging around and you'd be surprised how effective a changeling copying tooth's attack can be. It is the perferct attack to copy, since the push is built in. Agreed it is ml4 but there are only so many things the opponent can cheat, it tends to hit regularly, and you don't really care if it misses, either you need you changelings to run schemes, and if you can't and you're taking potshots you never cheat in cards for them.

 

You also mention tooths (0). It is true that if you need it for your entire combo to start rolling, you're going to probably need a 12 or 13 depending on opponents wp. Alternatively if you don't have the hand for it you can try and wait for later in the turn, or you make sure you position yourself to charge them and still get 2 attacks in at least. I've noticed a huge increase in efficiency of these models after learning to position them and titania better. It's not the craziest combo I've seen, but it can be damn ap efficient.

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4 hours ago, Joachim said:

I played lilitu dopple tooth rougarou in two tournament games yesterday and it actually worked pretty well.

Titania acts as a disruption piece to audience opponents in, taunt them and that way protect rougarou. I managed to get out a very close win against a nasty nicodem list...

That's quite funny cause I played at almost the same conditions:lol: I didn't took Doppel, but my plan was exactly the same. The problem was that Nico took Sybelle and 3 belles = 6 lures per turn!! This put a real mess at my set up and my plan in general.

The strategy was "ply for info". My first chosen scheme was Titania's auto pick - "set up".

My main mistake was that I chose "public demonstration" as my second scheme. I got only 3 minions in my list, which are Tooth, Rougarou and Myst. Effigy. Opponent hardly focused and killed the fist two and I scored only one point from this scheme at round 3. Also Sybelle was his only one henchman and he didn't take any enforcers. I should took "show of force" and score it by Emissary with conflix or at least "take prisoner".

My morale was hit really hard, because opponent scored his both schemes (6 points!) at round 1 - also "set up" and "public demo". It was really hard, but I managed to take a draw 7-7.

Quote

I've noticed a huge increase in efficiency of these models after learning to position them and titania better.

Yeah this is the key for sure:)

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@le_sphinx

 

Lol, I played into a nicodem with 1 belle and summoning 2 on turn 1. He lured my rougarou 6 times, failing once, but my dopple and lilitu lured him right back. Since nico invested 3 stones and his corpses into those belles and one punk zombie I consider that a win. Titania then had time to audience in izamu and a zombie. 

Rougarou then put in great damage against izamu putting him down to 3 wounds. Turn 2 dopple lured the punk zombie into my crew allowing me to kill it and pick up the head. He then use one belle to get izamu out of there. It was a very hard crew to go up against but this titania crew by deploying defensively put a lot of pressure onto his resources, I threw titania onto the first head marker in the centre of the table, forcing him to use more ap on titania to mover her around and pick it up. I then focused on accusation and search the ruins to just score my points, which got me a close 8-7 win. 

Technically he had the win, though I discovered at the end of the game that he did a double walk of 10 with a punk zombie to pick up a search the ruins marker to deny 3vp. That was literally the last activation of the game, and while the models where still on the board I checked with him if he could actually get there. He said yes, I can move 10" with a double walk. I then checked the stat card and said no, punk zombie has wk4. I also showed this to the to. The opponent reasoned that he could have removed the marker with another model instead, which was simply untrue. The to preferred to not get involved and force a decision, I'm also not the kind of player to argue about these kind of things and the opposing playere was clearly very competitive, so I made the agreement that we wouldn't change the vp but that I technically won, which I'm fine with. That player ended up winning the tournament which did feel quite unfair, but oh well.

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2 hours ago, Joachim said:

Technically he had the win, though I discovered at the end of the game that he did a double walk of 10 with a punk zombie to pick up a search the ruins marker to deny 3vp. That was literally the last activation of the game, and while the models where still on the board I checked with him if he could actually get there. He said yes, I can move 10" with a double walk. I then checked the stat card and said no, punk zombie has wk4. I also showed this to the to. The opponent reasoned that he could have removed the marker with another model instead, which was simply untrue. The to preferred to not get involved and force a decision, I'm also not the kind of player to argue about these kind of things and the opposing playere was clearly very competitive, so I made the agreement that we wouldn't change the vp but that I technically won, which I'm fine with. That player ended up winning the tournament which did feel quite unfair, but oh well.

Oh man that's sad. It's not just a competitevenes. It's a real cheating from that guy! 

I think the TO should protect the thruth and try to favor fair games. In my opinion that greedy ultra competitiveness kills hobby, but everyone see it (hobby) at their own way.

Anyway you won that game! Also your approach is really wise. I understand it!

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@le_sphinx thanks, i was indeed glad i pulled out a win though it was very hard. I had to cheat initiative several times to go first with titania, accuse stuff and tie them up, while not being accused back.

@whodares also had a negative experience against this player. It is indeed sad for the gaming community. Its all about having fun in the end for me. Luckiliy my next two games were against great players and i had a close loss and a win. So it turned out to be a great tournament anyways.

Sorry for the off-topic talk. 

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