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OneLittleThunder

Sun Quiang's King of Medicine on a dying model

Question

Sun Quiang's King of Medicine ability reads: 

Whenever another model within LoS suffers damage, this model may reveal a card from its hand and then place it on the bottom of its deck to push up to its Wk toward the model that suffered damage. If this model pushed at least 3", it may take a (1) Interact Action.

The Mark for Death scheme reads, in relevant part:

All non-Peon models in this Crew may take a (1) Interact Action to give a target non-Peon enemy model they are engaged with the following Condition for the rest of the game:

Marked: This Condition may not be removed or ended.”

Reveal this Scheme once an enemy model gains the Marked Condition. When an enemy model with the Marked Condition is reduced to 0 Wounds or leaves play, gain 1 VP and remove this Condition from that model.

This suggests that the following sequence is possible:

  1. Sun Quiang begins ~3.5" from Some Enemy Model (SEM).
  2. Another Friendly Model (AFM) activates and makes an attack that damages SEM and reduces it to 0 wounds.
  3. Once the damage has been dealt but before SEM is removed, Sun Quiang activates King of Medicine, pushes 3" towards SEM, and uses the free (1) Interact action to give it the Marked condition since they are now engaged.
  4. SEM dies, leaving play and thus giving Sun Quiang's player a point for Mark for Death.

Anyone see a reason why this wouldn't work?

For that matter, he could use the (1) Interact action to drop a Scheme marker instead (assuming there wasn't another friendly one within 4") and score Dig Their Graves in the same manner. (He has Don't Mind Me, so he could interact even next to the enemy model.)

Edited by OneLittleThunder
Added Dig Their Graves

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Abilities that happen "when" damaging etc. should be resolved bofore removing models in mu opinion. They happen during the application of damage.

The term immediately is used pretty sloppily since abilities already happen immediately on the conditions being met most of the time.

The way I've understood it after damaging triggers don't delay the death, they move themselves up in the resolution chain to happen during step five before the removal of the model.

Seema like he'll be able to mark for deathbecause of the removed from play wording but won't have time to dig their graves after the fact.

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Malifaux's death wormhole strikes again.

Interesting interaction. I probably agree closest with Ludvig, though uncertain about being able to Mark for Death the model.

On 9/11/2017 at 5:03 PM, Ludvig said:

Abilities that happen "when" damaging etc. should be resolved bofore removing models in mu opinion. They happen during the application of damage.

The term immediately is used pretty sloppily since abilities already happen immediately on the conditions being met most of the time.

The way I've understood it after damaging triggers don't delay the death, they move themselves up in the resolution chain to happen during step five before the removal of the model.

Seema like he'll be able to mark for deathbecause of the removed from play wording but won't have time to dig their graves after the fact.

I definitely believe you get to push towards the model, given that the Ability would trigger during Step 5 when the model takes damage before the model is removed as killed. There are plenty of other interactions that delay the removal of the physical model (often until after Step 5) so that they can be resolved.

Being able to interact with the model I'm less sure about. Because the interact targets an enemy 'model', and even when 'killed' the model is temporarily on the table while effects resolve it could be argued that the model is still there, therefore can be interacted with. However as a regular Thunders player I'd be conservative with this until proven otherwise and argue the model being 'immediately' removed as killed trumps the non-immediate Interact with what is a killed model. You could say the model stays on the table for resolution of abilities etc but doesn't exist therefore you're not actually engaged with it to resolve an action, engaged being a requirement of Mark for Death. This is a death timing wormhole until we get an official FAQ to my mind.

I can't see Dig Your Graves working as the model is already killed before you've dropped the Scheme marker, even if the model hasn't been removed.

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This won't work because as soon as the model hits 0 wounds it is dead and having Sun Quang put Marked on it is too late.  Basically the same issue with Dig Graves.  You can't kill a model than push it to a scheme marker to score that scheme.

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This could only potentially work if there's something keeping the model around after suffering damage(like an after damaging trigger). Sun Quiang's king of medicine would normally not resolve until after the model gets removed. Mark For Death he might be able to score because of the "leaves play" part of the scoring conditions, but Dig Their Graves would not work because the model is dead before the scheme marker would get placed.

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24 minutes ago, Littlewicked said:

This won't work because as soon as the model hits 0 wounds it is dead and having Sun Quang put Marked on it is too late.

I'm not sure it's that simple. The sequence of events around damaging, dying, etc. is fairly complex; @Khyodee's Master Timing Chart (not official, but has historically been pretty accurate and thorough) have "Passive abilities set off by taking damage" as a step that happens after "Damage is applied to the model" but before "Remove the killed model from the table." This is why Sun Quiang can't use King of Medicine to pick up a Head marker dropped by an enemy that was just killed; the Head marker hasn't been dropped when his effect resolves, because markers are placed immediately before the model is removed.

15 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Sun Quiang's king of medicine would normally not resolve until after the model gets removed.

Then it couldn't resolve at all, because if the model has already been removed, there's nothing for Sun Quiang to push toward.

General Timing (pocket rulebook p. 51) tells us that "Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first." We know that "after damaging" Triggers are resolved before the damaged model is removed (p. 26); Sun Quiang's Ability would happen after that, but I don't think there's any reason to remove the enemy model after such a Trigger but before the corresponding Ability.

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8 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

I'm not sure it's that simple. The sequence of events around damaging, dying, etc. is fairly complex; @Khyodee's Master Timing Chart (not official, but has historically been pretty accurate and thorough) have "Passive abilities set off by taking damage" as a step that happens after "Damage is applied to the model" but before "Remove the killed model from the table." This is why Sun Quiang can't use King of Medicine to pick up a Head marker dropped by an enemy that was just killed; the Head marker hasn't been dropped when his effect resolves, because markers are placed immediately before the model is removed.

Then it couldn't resolve at all, because if the model has already been removed, there's nothing for Sun Quiang to push toward.

General Timing (pocket rulebook p. 51) tells us that "Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first." We know that "after damaging" Triggers are resolved before the damaged model is removed (p. 26); Sun Quiang's Ability would happen after that, but I don't think there's any reason to remove the enemy model after such a Trigger but before the corresponding Ability.

Firstly, head markers being dropped is one such effect that delays removing a model. If no such effects exist, then a model that gets reduced to 0 wd is immediately removed as killed. Abilities that happen on a model taking damage don't by default delay the model being removed, only ones that are specifically called out as doing so do it. Additionally, you have the timing of King of Medicine and after damaging triggers reversed. Abilities happen as soon as their tI ming condition is met, which in this case is during step 5 when damage is applied. After Damaging triggers happen after step 5.

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26 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

I'm not sure it's that simple. The sequence of events around damaging, dying, etc. is fairly complex; @Khyodee's Master Timing Chart (not official, but has historically been pretty accurate and thorough) have "Passive abilities set off by taking damage" as a step that happens after "Damage is applied to the model" but before "Remove the killed model from the table." This is why Sun Quiang can't use King of Medicine to pick up a Head marker dropped by an enemy that was just killed; the Head marker hasn't been dropped when his effect resolves, because markers are placed immediately before the model is removed.

Then it couldn't resolve at all, because if the model has already been removed, there's nothing for Sun Quiang to push toward.

General Timing (pocket rulebook p. 51) tells us that "Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first." We know that "after damaging" Triggers are resolved before the damaged model is removed (p. 26); Sun Quiang's Ability would happen after that, but I don't think there's any reason to remove the enemy model after such a Trigger but before the corresponding Ability.

That document you're referring to makes a distinction the FAQ says doesn't exist:

88) If a model with the Burning Condition and the Explosive Demise Ability is killed within range of Sonnia’s Violation of Magic and she chooses to summon a Witching Stalker, is the Witchling Stalker summoned before or after the Explosive Demise Ability occurs? Violation of Magic occurs “when the target is reduced to 0 Wounds.” When a model is reduced to 0 Wounds it is “immediately killed” (Core Rulebook pg. 51) so Violation of Magic and Explosive Demise have the same timing point. In this instance, see the General Timing rules on pg. 46 of the Core Rulebook:

  • The Acting model resolves its Abilities
  • The Defending model resolves its Abilities
  • Any models controlled by the first player resolve their Abilities (in an order of the player’s choosing)
  • Any models controlled by the second player resolve their Abilities (in an order of the player’s choosing) If Sonnia is the Acting model (i.e. if she killed the model with Explosive Demise with one of her Actions), then she would resolve her Abilities first and summon a Witchling Stalker and it would then take damage as the Defender’s Abilities are triggered. However, if another model killed the Defender, then Sonnia would resolve her Abilities in either step 3 or 4 (depending on whether her player was first or second player) which would be after the Defender resolved its Explosive Demise in step 2.

----

In other words, there's no separate damage step for "model suffers damage" and "model is killed".  

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On 9/10/2017 at 4:14 AM, santaclaws01 said:

Sun Quiang's king of medicine would normally not resolve until after the model gets removed.

On 9/10/2017 at 4:44 AM, OneLittleThunder said:

Then it couldn't resolve at all, because if the model has already been removed, there's nothing for Sun Quiang to push toward.

I feel like this is a bigger question, which would determine the outcome of this one: Does King of Medicine's timing work for models that are killed?

If King of Medicine doesn't resolve until after the model is removed (and therefore doesn't resolve at all on a model that is killed), then obviously this whole question goes away.

If King of Medicine resolves before the model is removed, then I see no reason why this wouldn't work. The fact that the Marked condition is applied after the model has already been reduced to 0 Wds doesn't matter, because the scoring has a second timing point: when the Marked model leaves play.

Personally, I would expect that King of Medicine simply doesn't resolve when a model is killed, because it doesn't give any specific instruction to resolve before removing the model from play... but I'm sure it could be argued the other way as well.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Abilities that happen "when" damaging etc. should be resolved bofore removing models in mu opinion. They happen during the application of damage.

Hard to argue with that, since it's a similar timing point to abilities like Black Blood that most people would say still happen if the Black Blood model is killed. It's just a lot of stuff to cram into the middle of an action's resolution - reveal a card, put it on the bottom of the deck, push and interact, all of which happens in between reducing the target's Wds to 0 and removing them as killed (not to mention that the interact can prompt additional duels and game effects under some circumstances, and the push probably can too). It potentially makes the resolution really complicated.

What I should have said was "I would expect that King of Medicine wasn't intended to resolve when a model is killed". It's just messy for it to work that way, as well as a bit thematically weird (there's not much left for the King of Medicine to do when his patient is already dead). But yes, in the absence of any official FAQ or errata, I'd agree that this does work, and it's possible for Quiang to Mark for Death as a result.

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6 hours ago, scarlett fever said:

Being able to interact with the model I'm less sure about. Because the interact targets an enemy 'model', and even when 'killed' the model is temporarily on the table while effects resolve it could be argued that the model is still there, therefore can be interacted with. However as a regular Thunders player I'd be conservative with this until proven otherwise and argue the model being 'immediately' removed as killed trumps the non-immediate Interact with what is a killed model. You could say the model stays on the table for resolution of abilities etc but doesn't exist therefore you're not actually engaged with it to resolve an action, engaged being a requirement of Mark for Death. This is a death timing wormhole until we get an official FAQ to my mind.

 

They are still in the game until removed so interacting should be fine. You can for example attack dead models with Rasputina's trigger to get more blasts on other models.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

They are still in the game until removed so interacting should be fine. You can for example attack dead models with Rasputina's trigger to get more blasts on other models.

I agree, that seems like a solid interpretation. I'd just be reluctant to use it until it's qualified with an FAQ or at least general consensus. 

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