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Wave 5 Master Upgrades: Gremlins


WWHSD

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Just now, WWHSD said:

But you guys kind of needed some borderline broken shit so that  a master other than Nellie would be competitive, right?

Possibly. Although Hoffman is going to be absolutely bonkers and he was really only weak to a few outcast lists and I think suffered from people overloading on expensive models instead of picking the right tools for the job. I think Hoffman and Viks are looking like strong contenders for public outcry and ragequits.

I think that many of the most depraved players who could have taken guild to tournament wins just don't fancy the faction so we don't always see the most devious combos played. 

If gg-18 lessens the appeal of summoning and brings back killing in style I think guild will climb up the ladder considerably.

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24 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Don't have book on me but:

book 2 they came out with their own upgrades to interact with the master/henchmen (ironsides) upgrades.

They were cost 6 so everyone complained

 

Book 3 they got a 1ss reduction upgrade down to 5ss, they suddenly became great!

Book 4 they all got a free 0 upgrade that lets them prevent even more damage.

 

there is a lot of models that we have that need a free 0 upgrade, although that does not always work.

(warpig still will never be hired) 

Book 4 they got an upgrade that prevents 2 damage, and reduces their cost to 15  if you hire 3 of them. Its all on the same upgrade. 

(I hire warpigs as Marcus, and win. But thats a small aside)

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2 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Don't have book on me but:

book 2 they came out with their own upgrades to interact with the master/henchmen (ironsides) upgrades.

They were cost 6 so everyone complained

 

Book 3 they got a 1ss reduction upgrade down to 5ss, they suddenly became great!

Book 4 they all got a free 0 upgrade that lets them prevent even more damage.

 

there is a lot of models that we have that need a free 0 upgrade, although that does not always work.

(warpig still will never be hired) 

??  The SS reduction and prevent damage is all on the same upgrade that came out in book 4.  

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sorry, don't play the faction.

All I know is either of the buffs would make them worth 6ss, but they got both ss reduction and damage reduction.

 

In general what I am trying to say, many factions got multiple abilities per card from the new upgrades, when 1 or 2 would be more than sufficient.

Majority of our upgrade cards grant 1 - 2 at most( many are new abilities that cost actual AP from our masters)

Somer upgrades are so bad that if you put both upgrades on 1 card for 0SS I would still take dirty-cheater/stilts/do-over/pull my finger over wasting a slot on my master with a useless upgrade.

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14 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

I do not think this is favoritism.  Seriously I do not.  If these upgrades prove to be lack luster *more on this further down* I suspect it was more lack of ideas or problems with what Gremlins already have.  I know this is an unpopular opinion but what already exists with Gremlins might have been the problem.  Maybe because of what was already present, in models or upgrades, they could not come up with ideas that fit.  They could have been ones that threw the balance off due to existing model or upgrade selection.  Or they were to strong at the beginning of testing and faces multiple revisions before the current point.  Or they could not come up with good ideas on what directions they wanted to take things and despite their best efforts they might have failed *Again More below on this*.  I HIGHLY doubt this is favoritism.  Seriously.  Wyrd has show they put effort into trying to do things that are healthy for the game, even if they are unpopular decisions. 

Now something of a history lesson, when the Wave 5 masters came out, Sandeep was labeled as the weakest by many right out of the gate *though Parker got throw there not long afterwards but Sandeep was kept low on the charts*.  First there was a lot of shouting about Titania, then about Nellie, then Reva, a hair of Zipp mixed in here and there, and THEN Sandeep.  Now he is being praised as a top tier tournament master.  Simple put all we are doing now is making a guess, perhaps an educated guess but still a guess, about what these upgrades will mean to masters.  There will be obvious stuff, there will be stuff that later surprises us, and there will be stuff that just takes time to show its true colors for better or worse.

 

Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side and sometimes it just looks that way when you are looking across the breach at it.

In all honesty remember when Wave 4 came out it was GG16 and all the beta-testing was in GG16 schemes. That also could have changed perspective. I also know that the community and player count grew rapidly and for example (I was one of the PT) my game knowledge and skill improved rapidly between testing Book 4 and 5.

 

As for Gremlins: 
I think Mah got a BIG boost.

I think Som`er doesn`t really deserve anything earthshattering unless he gets an errata. Wong`s Limited for me is probably good when you play him in a Single Master tournament. Ulix has at least one good upgrade (I think he`s underrated IMHO, non-suit summoning is super strong right now). I don`t know about Brewmaster and Zipp. Ophelia got a lot of mobility with the Coat (which can be attached to her despite the 2SS cost)

 

The reason Gremlins don`t get anything groundbreaking is that it would have to top things like Francois, Burt and Tavish and I don`t think anyone wants that :P

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I'm really hoping Mah and Ophelia get some buffs in January. 

If Ophelia can ignore normal upgrade restrictions when reloading guns I think with her upgrades that will bump her back into seeing some table.

Mah still needs a rewrite imo. Her Manifest Destiny upgrade seems like errata disguised as an upgrade. 

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2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

I'm really hoping Mah and Ophelia get some buffs in January. 

If Ophelia can ignore normal upgrade restrictions when reloading guns I think with her upgrades that will bump her back into seeing some table.

Mah still needs a rewrite imo. Her Manifest Destiny upgrade seems like errata disguised as an upgrade. 

Lady Justice welcomes to the club. I doubt they will get an errata (at least Mah). I don`t know about Ophelia. I think Alex had a podcast about her and he didn`t think she`s that bad. I think her main issue is not that she doesn`t work but that Somer exists.

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2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

I'm really hoping Mah and Ophelia get some buffs in January. 

If Ophelia can ignore normal upgrade restrictions when reloading guns I think with her upgrades that will bump her back into seeing some table.

She really, really could use a fourth Upgrade slot at the very least. I don't understand why they didn't have Useless Junk not taking an Upgrade slot.

2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Mah still needs a rewrite imo. Her Manifest Destiny upgrade seems like errata disguised as an upgrade. 

This is true but I think that she should be very playable now. Tara and Ironsides also have these "patch" style Upgrades (though, admittedly, both of them received some errata onto their card as well).

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Just now, trikk said:

Lady Justice welcomes to the club. I doubt they will get an errata (at least Mah). I don`t know about Ophelia. I think Alex had a podcast about her and he didn`t think she`s that bad. I think her main issue is not that she doesn`t work but that Somer exists.

This is true. Both Mah and Ophelia are fine but the problem is that Somer and Zipp simply make them obsolete. It's a shame.

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Just now, trikk said:

Lady Justice welcomes to the club. I doubt they will get an errata (at least Mah). I don`t know about Ophelia. I think Alex had a podcast about her and he didn`t think she`s that bad. I think her main issue is not that she doesn`t work but that Somer exists.

I disagree with Lady J. Lady J at least still synergies really good with Guild (cough Abuela, Frank, Recruiters) got a good conflux upgrade with the emissary and got 2 good upgrades. 

 

I do agree that Ophelia is a solid master, but she is over shadowed in every way by Somer and mainly because imo her niche (reloading and the gun upgrades) need a buff. 

Mah is also over shadowed by Zip is every way, but imo her basic mechanics just don't work or set her apart as a master. 

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Just now, wizuriel said:

I disagree with Lady J. Lady J at least still synergies really good with Guild (cough Abuela, Frank, Recruiters) got a good conflux upgrade with the emissary and got 2 good upgrades. 

 

I do agree that Ophelia is a solid master, but she is over shadowed in every way by Somer and mainly because imo her niche (reloading and the gun upgrades) need a buff. 

Mah is also over shadowed by Zip is every way, but imo her basic mechanics just don't work or set her apart as a master. 

Lady Js Swordfighter is an errata-type upgrade. Thats what I was refering too. The Conflux might be good but the Emissary isn`t IMHO.

 

I think what the upgrades did is:

If you start and buy 1 master box and you happen to like Mah Tucket, you`re not that far behind the top as you would be without the upgrades. And they fulfill that role pretty well. Some masters will always be overshined. This happens to Guild Lucius and Guild McCabe (because Nellie).

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57 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

I do agree that Ophelia is a solid master, but she is over shadowed in every way by Somer and mainly because imo her niche (reloading and the gun upgrades) need a buff. 

I sort of disagree. Som'er and Ophelia does quite different things after these upgrades. Although they both seem to be able to do a lot of different things, including helping the rest of their team, Ophelia does so (mostly) without hurting them, and she provides a lot of mobility while Som'er has his summoning as well as Encouragement and do it like dis, but the former damages the beneficiaries and the latter puts some pressure on your hand. Meanwhile, depending on how useless junk is to be interpreted, the young can in one activation force the opponent to hopefully take a horror duel (or maybe even several, if Lenny is around) and at the same time leave a trash marker for others to benefit from. 

After the Lenny "incident" we all (I guess) considered Ophelias shooting to be plain worse than Som'ers, but with these new upgrades she has so many options that her opponent will have a very hard time guessing what she wants to do. 

I really don't think Ophelia and Som'er have that much in common, and since Ophelia will have less focus on shooting her main gun now, it doesn't really matter that much that Som'ers gun can be considered better than Ophelias. Many (?) consider her to be very one-dimensional because those rough riders were really blinding when she could use Lenny to get thinkin luck on every shot.

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1 hour ago, Runeman said:

. Many (?) consider her to be very one-dimensional because those rough riders were really blinding when she could use Lenny to get thinking luck on every shot.

The funny thing is we got hit with the "no Rams for masters" 

But Guild still kept its Franc and Loco giving the mega buffs to their faction masters ( we all know it should not be given to non-Family masters ).

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Just now, PolishSausage said:

The funny thing is we got hit with the "no Rams for masters" 

But Guild still kept its Franc and Loco giving the mega buffs to their faction masters ( we all know it should not be given to non-Family masters ).

I don't know that. Papa Loco rarely sees play now anyways and the whole faction is designed around Frank. Give Sonnia and Justice Df6 and we can talk about it.

Lennies aura is constant and affects multiple models. I don't know if the change to Lenny was necessary but the restrictions on Frank and Papa are pretty risky/limiting

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2 hours ago, Runeman said:

Meanwhile, depending on how useless junk is to be interpreted, the young can in one activation force the opponent to hopefully take a horror duel (or maybe even several, if Lenny is around) and at the same time leave a trash marker for others to benefit from. 

Nada. Only the model with the upgrade can create trash markers. So unless you reload or plink during Ophelia turn your not going be generating many trash markers

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10 hours ago, anumberone said:

  I agree that since gremlins have the least number of players and playtesters it seems like the other factions got great upgrades and ours (besides Ulix's and Mah's) are meh. We should be as vocal as we can, without being outright negative of course, about what we'd like to see for our underplayed faction. 

 There's a ton of potential for cool looking models to get buffs come January's errata. There's been a lot of out cry against reckless so I'd say maybe that's not the direction they would like to go. Maybe moonshinobi can synergize better with Brewie by giving out free poison or having a less impressive drinking contest of their own?  Maybe bushwhackers get a card cycling effect like Mah's new upgrade? Maybe slightly overcosted but cool looking  models like Mancha Roja or the Whiskey golem become cheaper or get extra loving like Montressor did? 1 inch melee on Whiskey Golem??

Any thoughts on being vocal to help steer the faction? My initial thought was to document things via battle reports so the developers can get a real world, non theory sense of how the faction is doing in the field.

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12 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

The funny thing is we got hit with the "no Rams for masters" 

But Guild still kept its Franc and Loco giving the mega buffs to their faction masters ( we all know it should not be given to non-Family masters ).

Loco can hardly buff anything without the bury so if he sees play it is because of his attack, the buff will be on a master maybe turn one but rarely after that.

I'd happily trade Francisco's buff for squeal on all my masters. That survivability buff is needed since our masters have zero abilities or triggers geared towards survival while often needing to be in the enemy's grill since we can't chill in the backfield and summon.

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12 hours ago, the tick said:

Any thoughts on being vocal to help steer the faction? My initial thought was to document things via battle reports so the developers can get a real world, non theory sense of how the faction is doing in the field.

 Tick, I think documenting battle reports is a great idea. We should attempt to use some of the more sub par models against stronger crews and be very specific about what does and doesn't work for the offending models. 

 Roosters got Cuddled because they witnessed first hand how trivial something like Stake a claim was when taking a few of them. I think we'd get better results if some of our strongest players attempted to use our bad models but I'm guessing it's up to mediocre players like myself, haha.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

 

I'd happily trade Francisco's buff for squeal on all my masters. That survivability buff is needed since our masters have zero abilities or triggers geared towards survival while often needing to be in the enemy's grill since we can't chill in the backfield and summon.

 To be fair, only half our masters have squeal or Zipp's better than squeal and only Somer and Ulix summon. Zoraida has some good defensive abilities but Mah and Brewie's are pretty sub par and likely need Trixibelle the way guild need Francisco.

  Guild's book one masters have very situational defenses based on specialty, it's true. Mcmourning is the most tanky with tons of wounds, hard to wound and the ability to heal 5 wounds a turn. Hoffman has access to armor and can heal as well as buffing his def. Lucius requires cards to give negatives so his costs resources to use. Mccabe doesn't have a high def or wounds but can become another model and has easy access to healing. And Nellie can be frustrating to take out as you can cheat down damage, so it does take resources, but often a deterent in case Nellie holds the black joker. 

 I certainly don't begrudge your feelings about gremlin defenses compared to guild's. Guild deserved some buffs this book and I'd say most of their masters got some to a degree, some better than others.

 

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14 minutes ago, anumberone said:

 To be fair, only half our masters have squeal or Zipp's better than squeal and only Somer and Ulix summon. Zoraida has some good defensive abilities but Mah and Brewie's are pretty sub par and likely need Trixibelle the way guild need Francisco.

  Guild's book one masters have very situational defenses based on specialty, it's true. Mcmourning is the most tanky with tons of wounds, hard to wound and the ability to heal 5 wounds a turn. Hoffman has access to armor and can heal as well as buffing his def. Lucius requires cards to give negatives so his costs resources to use. Mccabe doesn't have a high def or wounds but can become another model and has easy access to healing. And Nellie can be frustrating to take out as you can cheat down damage, so it does take resources, but often a deterent in case Nellie holds the black joker. 

 I certainly don't begrudge your feelings about gremlin defenses compared to guild's. Guild deserved some buffs this book and I'd say most of their masters got some to a degree, some better than others.

 

Not sure how Brewie forcing every action being declared around him to take a duel or be something else, and then coming back when he dies if Wesley is around is considered sub par defense.

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25 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Not sure how Brewie forcing every action being declared around him to take a duel or be something else, and then coming back when he dies if Wesley is around is considered sub par defense.

 Sure sounds great when you put it like that. His aura is 3 inches and requires him to activate first, which is why he needs Trixie. Outside of that bubble he is very easy to kill with def 5 and 12 wounds. Wesley is def 4, 4 wounds and needs to be 6 inches away to save Brewie. He doesn't need line of sight so can potentially hide but not hard to kill Wesley first. Brewmaster can take his new 2 stone upgrade to summon another Wesley for a zero, which means no drinking contest that activation. Sounds like he could be more survivable but is likely only slightly harder to kill from range than he was before. And his You're drunk, go home trigger requires two suits and is still on def 5.

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4 minutes ago, anumberone said:

 Sure sounds great when you put it like that. His aura is 3 inches and requires him to activate first, which is why he needs Trixie. Outside of that bubble he is very easy to kill with def 5 and 12 wounds. Wesley is def 4, 4 wounds and needs to be 6 inches away to save Brewie. He doesn't need line of sight so can potentially hide but not hard to kill Wesley first. Brewmaster can take his new 2 stone upgrade to summon another Wesley for a zero, which means no drinking contest that activation. Sounds like he could be more survivable but is likely only slightly harder to kill from range than he was before. And his You're drunk, go home trigger requires two suits and is still on def 5.

Killing him from range usually means either dealing with randomization/cover or targeting his Wp. And you bring up some guild masters have access to healing, but Brewmaster has plenty of access to that as well, and more than any of the guild masters, especially now with the Tanuki.

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  Tanuki require another 2 stone upgrade to hire in gremlins.Not sure if they're worth 7 stones or 2 for 12, but maybe? Brewmaster in 10 Thunders is probably a whole different animal than gremlins, what with the Yasunori and  double drinking contest contest with Sensei Yu amoung other things. 

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44 minutes ago, anumberone said:

 Sure sounds great when you put it like that. His aura is 3 inches and requires him to activate first, which is why he needs Trixie. Outside of that bubble he is very easy to kill with def 5 and 12 wounds. Wesley is def 4, 4 wounds and needs to be 6 inches away to save Brewie. He doesn't need line of sight so can potentially hide but not hard to kill Wesley first. Brewmaster can take his new 2 stone upgrade to summon another Wesley for a zero, which means no drinking contest that activation. Sounds like he could be more survivable but is likely only slightly harder to kill from range than he was before. And his You're drunk, go home trigger requires two suits and is still on def 5.

If you think Df 5 and 12 wounds is easy to kill, you probably don't want to play Guild masters. 3 of them only have 10 wounds, and one of those only has Df3!

Another has Df4 and 12 wounds. 

Of the the 3 masters with Df 5, they get 2 with 14 wounds, and one sort of with 13. 

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