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A couple frustrations about Brewmaster


anumberone

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1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Even if Wyrd improve Moon Shinobis this change won't improve Brewie himself... I guess he is sitting now somewhere and drinking heavily his moonshine out of despair...

 Yeah, I picked up Sensei Yu the other day as he was the only model I was missing to play Brewie in 10 Thunders. I certainly don't want to play 10 Thunders at the moment but I do want to use Brewmaster more and I know he's better in that faction currently . Or at least can take a Yasunori, haha.

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7 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

So maybe... I'd personally support the idea that Monks are possibly better versus less enemy models, and Shinobi are better versus the swarm. Each are better in different ways against different masters, which is always the issue in this game.

Shinobi's are better against heavier enemies (HTW, stubborn models or nasty Df triggers)

i usually field them against Arcanist only to counter the Mechanical Rider.

the new A Friendly Ear is a nice upgrade to an already strong Master, it'll give him other nice tricks to play around

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17 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

I assume you are talking about Hangover and not Binge. While this is definitely an option those :-fate modifiers are generally better served on an opponents model (where it benefits the entire crew) than your Moon Shinobi (which are the only beneficiaries).  Additionally, Wesley isn't nearly as good at throwing out Swill as the Brewmaster, can only provide 2 :-fate modifiers per activation, and is a fairly squishy high priority target. The Moon Shinobi need a method of generating their own :-fate modifiers independent of the Brewmaster.

Basically reinforcing your point, but note that Wesley can cast Brewie's actions only once per turn so it's just one :-fate modifier per activation.

I have had a Nurse put Downers on a Moon Shinobi and use one to hold up a choke point extremely well keeping half the enemy crew occupied but that is expensive, complex, and cannot be done using Brewmaster. (And most of the time the Nurse is better used just for Paralyzing enemies.)

I do very much agree that Moon Shinobis could do with a bit of a boost and especially when taken with Brewmaster.

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Wesley getting swill onto even a relenting target is less than 50/50 because of the TN 12. Pick Your Poison is a better use of his copy cast imo.

 

Although I am a moon shinobi apologist. One thing everyone seems to gloss over in discussions of them is how they have a slightly weaker version of one of the best defensive triggers in the game.

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7 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Wesley getting swill onto even a relenting target is less than 50/50 because of the TN 12. Pick Your Poison is a better use of his copy cast imo.

 

Although I am a moon shinobi apologist. One thing everyone seems to gloss over in discussions of them is how they have a slightly weaker version of one of the best defensive triggers in the game.

On a 6 wound model that isn't that hard to one shot it's not actually that great also when it's not on fingers / somer / zipp who can stone it's also way less reliable.

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17 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

6 wounds is pretty hard to one shot on a model with 6 Df that's never on negatives.

Plus it's not always about soaking the damage. They're really helpful vs Belles for example, just drop any mask in to basically counteract a lure.

Also: the ability to change what you're targeting is priceless when you're concerned about triggers, conditions, or raw stats.

I'd also like to point out that if you're one-shot removing a 6 wound model that has Df 6, you're doing it with a model that has very valuable AP and/or you're burning some valuable cards to do it. If that high quality AP and/or card is not being used to complete the scenario, that's even more of a win for me.

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2 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Also: the ability to change what you're targeting is priceless when you're concerned about triggers, conditions, or raw stats.

I'd also like to point out that if you're one-shot removing a 6 wound model that has Df 6, you're doing it with a model that has very valuable AP and/or you're burning some valuable cards to do it. If that high quality AP and/or card is not being used to complete the scenario, that's even more of a win for me.

I'm not saying it's always one shot but for a 6ss model it kind of leaves you in a shitty position where you have to burn your one mask (unless your using somer and then the question is why?) And then your important model ( fingers / masters) have to blow soul stones to use their trigger. Lastly you guys are again trying to defend a model that as is is behind at least 18 models in the 5-7 stone cost.....(lightning bugs, slop haulers, wrastlers, meris, bayou smuggler, iron skeeters, rooster riders, pere ravage, burt, Francois, Sammy, big brain brin, gremlin crier, mech pork chop, Sparks, swine-cursed, Raphael, taxidermist). Of these I'd say there are quite a few that do everything better meris, swine-cursed, etc.

Does it have a good def trigger? Yes. Is it worth taking a 6 stone non reckless model with a weak ml 4-5 attack........? Nope.

What I hate about errata threads and the like is that I give my honest opinion that something is so and then the opposite is fought tooth and nail when the truth is out there... That model needs a big buff to see the table. 

Literally if the moon shinobi had reckless it still would feel kinda weird. Would it see the table more? Yes. It would be a more resilient pere with less damage. 

Now I'm not saying give it reckless because then cries of op would be out there but I think giving him an ability first to the bottom, making him 5ss would do nicely. "First to the bottom: At the beginning of this models activation this model and another model within 4-8(not sure on the range) flip a card. The winner of the flip gains the poison +2 condition. If either flipped card was a crow the loser may choose to gain the poison +1 condition." This helps brewmaster and stuff while also making the moon shinobi's that's the stuff and his (0) way more reliable. Also this would make the whole poison crew work better (easy to feed akaname etc.). 

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@lame0, couple of things, since you decided to quote me on it:

1. Defending? Eh. Pointing out some things that will come up during design and testing of tweaks for these guys.

3 hours ago, lame0 said:

On a 6 wound model that isn't that hard to one shot it's not actually that great also when it's not on fingers / somer / zipp who can stone it's also way less reliable.

2. If you want your honest opinion to be received as such without push back from someone like me, make sure that your argument points aren't hyperbolic. Claiming that a 6 wound model can be removed from the game in a single shot without thinking about it is being hyperbolic. Are there things that can? Yeah. Are they that common and cheap where having them use their AP on this model is a good use of AP? Not unless the scenario calls for it.

I understand that you're responding to a "don't forget about this trigger"--but something that is far more common than a single AP removing a 6 wound model is a relatively cheap model that ignores defensive triggers. If the only issue with the trigger was the lack of suit, it's something that could potentially be built into the model as a tweak to make it better fit its stone cost. One of the reasons to not gloss over the trigger is related to how the Moon Shinobi interact with other abilities and effects in the game, which means that if you set up for it they're flipping on positives and have a better chance of getting that defensive trigger. Currently the set up for it is a little odd, arguably not worth it, but that's yet another angle that could be tweaked.

Again, it's something that will come up during design and testing of tweaks/changes for these guys. What's not going to come up during design discussion and expected play testing is a high frequency of 6+ damage per AP attacks. After all, there's a lot more to this game than doing damage and killing things.

That's my recommendation. Dial back the sky is falling and focus on things that fall in the more likely range.

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Variation that I think feels more reasonable

Despite their good defense and reasonable number of wounds, they often feel *very* fragile to me since they very much seem to want to have some poison stacked on them to boost movement with 'thats the stuff' (serving as their pseudo-reckless).  With no in-built heal, they're often wandering into the fight with effectively 3-4 hp unless you're dedicating extra resources to an already expensive model.

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18 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

@lame0, couple of things, since you decided to quote me on it:

1. Defending? Eh. Pointing out some things that will come up during design and testing of tweaks for these guys.

2. If you want your honest opinion to be received as such without push back from someone like me, make sure that your argument points aren't hyperbolic. Claiming that a 6 wound model can be removed from the game in a single shot without thinking about it is being hyperbolic. Are there things that can? Yeah. Are they that common and cheap where having them use their AP on this model is a good use of AP? Not unless the scenario calls for it.

I understand that you're responding to a "don't forget about this trigger"--but something that is far more common than a single AP removing a 6 wound model is a relatively cheap model that ignores defensive triggers. If the only issue with the trigger was the lack of suit, it's something that could potentially be built into the model as a tweak to make it better fit its stone cost. One of the reasons to not gloss over the trigger is related to how the Moon Shinobi interact with other abilities and effects in the game, which means that if you set up for it they're flipping on positives and have a better chance of getting that defensive trigger. Currently the set up for it is a little odd, arguably not worth it, but that's yet another angle that could be tweaked.

Again, it's something that will come up during design and testing of tweaks/changes for these guys. What's not going to come up during design discussion and expected play testing is a high frequency of 6+ damage per AP attacks. After all, there's a lot more to this game than doing damage and killing things.

That's my recommendation. Dial back the sky is falling and focus on things that fall in the more likely range.

Fair enough about the 6 damage thing but since the moon shinobi wants to be taking 1-2 points of poison damage getting in a 4 damage moderate out from most models is totally possible. I will say that it is an honest concern to an extent if you are saying that the models saving grace is it's trigger because one shoting it/ignoring it is definitely in the realm of possibility. Especially with a bunch of the ranged shooting around. (Trappers, McTavish, etc). 

One issue I have is that I feel like most minor changes will do basically nothing to make him more playable and that's why I pointed out how bad and behind I really felt it was.

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1 hour ago, lame0 said:

Fair enough about the 6 damage thing but since the moon shinobi wants to be taking 1-2 points of poison damage getting in a 4 damage moderate out from most models is totally possible. I will say that it is an honest concern to an extent if you are saying that the models saving grace is it's trigger because one shoting it/ignoring it is definitely in the realm of possibility. Especially with a bunch of the ranged shooting around. (Trappers, McTavish, etc). 

One issue I have is that I feel like most minor changes will do basically nothing to make him more playable and that's why I pointed out how bad and behind I really felt it was.

That gets us closer to the realm of workable. What if instead of ticking poison damage, they had some other effect? I don't think we could justify the mithridatism healing effect, given the availability of poison in a Brewmaster crew, but some other non-negative effect on normal poison burn. Maybe make them a little closer to the Fermented River Monks in their reaction to poison. Drop their Df one point and make it so that the poison condition boosts it, on top of not actually ticking for damage? If that route is taken, there would need to be a cap on how much drunkenness helps their defense.
I get the desire to elevate an under-utilized model, but we've got to temper it with the desire to not create a new problem where the model is autotake or notably over the curve.

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I hate to bring up a mcmourning comparison again but why not a mithradization effect? McMourning has access to Mithradization and/or Embalmed on several models and he can throw out poison with ease. Gremlins normally have access to the slop hauler and wong can easily run 2 swine cursed and another beater with regeneration, i don't think effectively regen 1 but only with setup is that strong on this kind of model.

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Embalmed would be cool. End of turn give them the option of either healing from poison, or take the damage and push from that's the stuff.

Though I feel if they had from the shadows that would greatly help them. Problem I find isn't so much they get 1 shot, as much as they get torn up too quickly just trying to engage.

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That would be a fine solution, athough it would probably be slightly less complicated to just change That's the Stuff to also avoid the poison damage. Though that would require a change in the name, as McMourning has the same ability.

Has anybody else tried to take Moon Shinobi in a Som'er crew and have a piglet charge it turn one? Sometimes you can get 14" of push for 2 damage and one piglet AP, even allowing the piglet to charge an enemy on its second AP and bringing the Shinobi into charge range as well. It probably isn't too competitive against good opponents but the few times i've tried it, it really messed with my opponents. And that really is part of the complexity. They have a very good defensive trigger that can be used with both Df and Wp and can be used on friendly attacks as well as enemy attacks, and regardless of success or failure. On top of this they have two rules that are only (?) otherwise available to particular masters, and that interacts in interesting ways with either a lot of defensive abilities or the strategies and schemes. Giving them the mask inbuilt on defense would in my opinion make them too good, though I would be happy to try it out.

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7 hours ago, lame0 said:

 a model that as is is behind at least 18 models in the 5-7 stone cost.....(lightning bugs, slop haulers, wrastlers, meris, bayou smuggler, iron skeeters, rooster riders, pere ravage, burt, Francois, Sammy, big brain brin, gremlin crier, mech pork chop, Sparks, swine-cursed, Raphael, taxidermist). Of these I'd say there are quite a few that do everything better meris, swine-cursed, etc.

most of those models are in no way better  than the shinobi.

sure, the slop hauler is better than the shinobi as a  healer, but you don't take the shinobi for his healing ( ??? )

i personally hire the shinobi to deal with specific threats that no other model can effectively counter

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 I'd say the Slop Hauler is better in combat and as a scheme runner too for one stone less than the moon shinobi. Reckless, bayou two card, a long charge range, a ranged attack and the ability to drop a model's defense to 4 are fantastic. You hire him for healing but he can fill other roles. As is, I don't see myself taking a shinobi in a competitive list. Too many stones for niche abilities.

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2 hours ago, Dominion said:

most of those models are in no way better  than the shinobi.

sure, the slop hauler is better than the shinobi as a  healer, but you don't take the shinobi for his healing ( ??? )

i personally hire the shinobi to deal with specific threats that no other model can effectively counter

A lightning bugs, slop haulers, wrastlers, meris, rooster riders, pere ravage, burt, Francois, mech pork chop, Sparks, swine-cursed, Raphael, and taxidermist are all for sure better in combat than the moon shinobi. The other models I had there actually provide very special effects that support the rest of the crew and are almost or are equally as killy as a moon shinobi (95% of them at least). Either way when would I want a moon shinobi over any reckless model for damage? Both the slop hauler and lightning bug at a stone less do more damage and provide nice effects. (Give def 4 for slops and all the triggers for bugs) also the slop with bayou two card is a psudo + flip because who wants to waste high cards from hand on 5ss models (card efficient).

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Personally would rather have moon shinobi over spark or wrastlers. Wrastlers require an additional model to be useful and are nearly as squishy and Sparks imo requires a lot of resources for little payoff in most gremlin lists.

I would say Raphael and pere are more or less on the same level, but they play a bit better with other gremlin/kin models giving them the edge

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