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A couple frustrations about Brewmaster


anumberone

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  The topic of Brewmaster's short comings have come up before and I've read through people's postings about various tactics with him. I realize he's getting 2 upgrades that will be a boon to him but I want to talk about a few frustrations I will still continue to have. 

 Number one, Drinking contest lasts until end of the turn. I understand you can take Trixibelle but you essentially have to in order to have that protection and you are locked in to activating Brewie first. I realize that aura can be potentially insanely frustrating for the right models but can be ignored with ranged attacks and ruthless models. Your opponent has plenty of chances to come at Brewie sideways either way, this would just avoid having to activate him first and save him from just dying to a charging Yasunori like a chump.

 Number 2, neither suit is built into his defensive trigger. He has to use a card and a stone to trigger it. On defense 5. It will likely come into play a bit more often now that one of his upgrades gives masks to his obey vs poisoned models but it's still quite expensive to use. I will likely take both new upgrades and Binge because it's awesome so not much space for hide in the mud or stilts to protect him a bit. Guess I could take Sammy to put one of those upgrades on but that's 7 more stones to add to my Trixi tax.

 Number 3, mostly for fun. Why not give him infiltration Tri Chi? Change his infiltrate upgrade to do something else besides the scheme heal the way Tara's upgrade  change. Not really a game changer but running drunken monks and the new book Trash pandas (Tanuki) without extra cost sounds fun.

  Side note about a model in his crew box, the moon shinobi. I don't hate it, I've tried a couple of them with Brewmaster. My critique is basically they feel like a stone over costed for what they do. Defense 6 and 6 wounds isn't bad and making your opponent think more about cheating is good. But 5 stones and maybe a slight change in something would make them interesting, a change akin to the Guardian last January. Every stone counts after all.

  I hope some people agree with some of my points. I'm going to continue to play with him from time to time and consider the advice I've read in the forums. 

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I agree with most of your points. I would also add that neither of the new upgrades really does much to make him more viable: both keep insisting on the poison theme, which just doesn't work. What he needs is a more reliable and consistent way to spread poison around, not more options as to what to do with poison - he already has those. I'm extremely disappointed for a beautiful and fluffy master which is severely underwhelming to play and one more lost chance to fix him.

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 True, maybe they can give Moon Shinobi a second zero for poison flinging which would be hilarious and in theme. I'd argue that he's more viable in 10 Thunders, as he was before, being able to easily obey a likely fast Yasunori.  Much scarier than a Burt or Francois team up in my opinion. I guess Shen Long could pull off a similar effect and still be Shen Long.

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22 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

I agree with most of your points. I would also add that neither of the new upgrades really does much to make him more viable: both keep insisting on the poison theme, which just doesn't work. What he needs is a more reliable and consistent way to spread poison around, not more options as to what to do with poison - he already has those. I'm extremely disappointed for a beautiful and fluffy master which is severely underwhelming to play and one more lost chance to fix him.

No reason to play him over zaroida. Easier & stronger obey, better condition play (voodoo doll), better model selection (nurse). He's one of the coolest models thematically  and yet it doesn't translate at all. His other upgrade could of been

1-2 ss experimental cask 

(1) "it's in the air!" (Ca: 7 Tn: 14:mask) All non tri-chi models within 8 must pass a tn 14wp duel or gain the poison +1 condition. All other friendly tri-chi models within 8 flip a card if the result is equal to or greater than the models wp it gains fast (may be cheated). This action can only be taken once per turn.

I think this would make it so brewie has something special and would make him actually pretty decent. It would make his fellow tri-chi way more playable and it would let him hand out poison to enemy's easier (the drunker and closer they are the easier it is). Also giving Wesley and/or fingers:

(0) "shape the drunk" target a friendly model with the poison +2 condition (or greater). It gains the tri-chi characteristic till the end of the game"

would be fluffy and would allow more synergy with brewie.

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 Lame0, you're probably right about not taking him over Zoraida. I just find her boring to use. I really love Brewie's theme. I love Binge, I love Swill. I think attacking an opponent's hand and giving them negatives is an incredibly useful set of powers and fun to use. I can see the potential for a crew of elite gremlin badasses supported by a master who is putting real pressure on the opponent's resources. 

 Unfortunately, his survival potential prohibits him being the monkey wrench I want him to be. Even with Wesley, who can be killed quite easily. I'm sure being able to summon another Wesley will help but it's not at all hard to just kill that Wesley again. 

 I guess any game plan I have for Brewmaster can just substitute Zipp, who is an incredibly effective monkey wrench who can get around the board and be extremely hard to put down if you're careful. 

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One thing - if you're trying to plan around using the Brewmaster's aura, you're probably not using him to his fullest.
The aura is ok, but not his best thing.

The most powerful thing in his deck of tricks is Swill.
You'll notice his casts and ML are all 7's. Makes it pretty easy to pull off targeted strikes.
Hit something (anything!) with three Swill based attacks (Hangover or Swig o 'Shine with crow trigger) and it becomes an easy target to the end of the turn.

Swill is a stackable neg flip to ALL flips and duals. That's everything. Duals, healing flips, everything. A triple negative flip on an enemy master is brutal - I've used it to kill McMourning on turn 2 at a recent tournament. 

Engage the targeted model, and it's not doing anything at all that turn. It won't disengage, it can't cheat, it's probably going to lose every dual you throw at it.

Swill is also fantastic on Moon Shinobi - it means a stackable positive flip for those guys. Hit a target with triple neg flip, then have Wesley juice up your Moon Shinobi with Swill, and send them in for the kill. I once used a juiced up Moon Shinobi to tie up 4 enemy models over two turns. Extra great if that Moon Shinobi is also Framed for Murder.

(If you pair Moon Shinobi with Akaname, they can move crazy fast. Two Akaname, one poisons the other and moves forward, the other poisons two Moon Shinobi. Both Moon Shinobi get their "where'd you get that", move twice, and then Stumble Around Drunk. That's 17" if you do it right)

 

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3 minutes ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

One thing - if you're trying to plan around using the Brewmaster's aura, you're probably not using him to his fullest.
The aura is ok, but not his best thing.

The most powerful thing in his deck of tricks is Swill.
You'll notice his casts and ML are all 7's. Makes it pretty easy to pull off targeted strikes.
Hit something (anything!) with three Swill based attacks (Hangover or Swig o 'Shine with crow trigger) and it becomes an easy target to the end of the turn.

Swill is a stackable neg flip to ALL flips and duals. That's everything. Duals, healing flips, everything. A triple negative flip on an enemy master is brutal - I've used it to kill McMourning on turn 2 at a recent tournament. 

Engage the targeted model, and it's not doing anything at all that turn. It won't disengage, it can't cheat, it's probably going to lose every dual you throw at it.

Swill is also fantastic on Moon Shinobi - it means a stackable positive flip for those guys. Hit a target with triple neg flip, then have Wesley juice up your Moon Shinobi with Swill, and send them in for the kill. I once used a juiced up Moon Shinobi to tie up 4 enemy models over two turns. Extra great if that Moon Shinobi is also Framed for Murder.

(If you pair Moon Shinobi with Akaname, they can move crazy fast. Two Akaname, one poisons the other and moves forward, the other poisons two Moon Shinobi. Both Moon Shinobi get their "where'd you get that", move twice, and then Stumble Around Drunk. That's 17" if you do it right)

 

You're right - in fact, this currently seems the most successful way to play him, probably the only way if you wanna be competitive. I had a game with him focusing only on Swilling enemies and occasionally using obey on my own models and it was a pretty solid win.

But I don't think this is how he was intended to work in the first place. In fact, designers keep insisting on the Poison mechanics, which, currently, is unexistent. He has an aura effect that simply doesn't work. Similar I think happened to Hamelin who is one of the top tier masters currently but hardly every relies on the Blighted mechanics, relying instead simply on out-activation and elite models. Similar, again, for Ophelia who was meant to cycle upgrades and hire lots of Kin, and instead was only successfully used with Kin-less crews (apart maybe from Frank) and by bringing Lenny around (at least pre-errata). I think designers are actively trying to fix this and encourage these masters to go back to their (at least partially) intended mechanics. I personally tried Ophelia with her new upgrades and she now is a lot more viable both with her gun cycling and her Kin. Hamelin himself got those Traps to encourage using Blighted. So it would be nice to see Brewmaster do Brewmaster things and happily get people drunk. Then yes, he can still use Swill, but he's not limited to just that.

As another parallel, when it was pretty clear that Colette's most powerful trick was Prompt and only Prompt, they cuddled it to prevent Colette players to just triple-Prompt every turn and encourage using other actions on her card...of course, this was only partially successful IMHO since they didn't improve any of the other actions on her card, so this just plain made her weaker, but that's another matter :)

As for Moon Shinobi, I love their theme, the models, everything...I'd love to see them more on the table. They feel (probably are) overcosted, and they shouldn't rely exclusively on their master to become useful. The (many) times I've tried using them, they were simply too slow to keep up and accomplish anything. Akaname might help, but again, why not fix the actual model, rather than "fixing" the model by forcing you to hire another one? It feels similar to the Zoraida "fix" with Will o Wisps...

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37 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

You're right - in fact, this currently seems the most successful way to play him, probably the only way if you wanna be competitive. I had a game with him focusing only on Swilling enemies and occasionally using obey on my own models and it was a pretty solid win.

But I don't think this is how he was intended to work in the first place. In fact, designers keep insisting on the Poison mechanics, which, currently, is unexistent. He has an aura effect that simply doesn't work. Similar I think happened to Hamelin who is one of the top tier masters currently but hardly every relies on the Blighted mechanics, relying instead simply on out-activation and elite models. Similar, again, for Ophelia who was meant to cycle upgrades and hire lots of Kin, and instead was only successfully used with Kin-less crews (apart maybe from Frank) and by bringing Lenny around (at least pre-errata). I think designers are actively trying to fix this and encourage these masters to go back to their (at least partially) intended mechanics. I personally tried Ophelia with her new upgrades and she now is a lot more viable both with her gun cycling and her Kin. Hamelin himself got those Traps to encourage using Blighted. So it would be nice to see Brewmaster do Brewmaster things and happily get people drunk. Then yes, he can still use Swill, but he's not limited to just that.

As another parallel, when it was pretty clear that Colette's most powerful trick was Prompt and only Prompt, they cuddled it to prevent Colette players to just triple-Prompt every turn and encourage using other actions on her card...of course, this was only partially successful IMHO since they didn't improve any of the other actions on her card, so this just plain made her weaker, but that's another matter :)

As for Moon Shinobi, I love their theme, the models, everything...I'd love to see them more on the table. They feel (probably are) overcosted, and they shouldn't rely exclusively on their master to become useful. The (many) times I've tried using them, they were simply too slow to keep up and accomplish anything. Akaname might help, but again, why not fix the actual model, rather than "fixing" the model by forcing you to hire another one? It feels similar to the Zoraida "fix" with Will o Wisps...

Yeah that's probably all fairly true.

 

I mean, the crew was my first when I (recently!) got into Malifaux, and for ages I was trying so hard to make the poison thing work.

It was like an epiphany when I figured out spamming Binge was the best bet - but it's a departure from what it seems the model/tri chi are trying to do, and clear that it might not be as intended originally.

 

For Moon Shinobi, I've had nothing but awesome results from these guys. I find there's an element of skills overlap in Tri Chi (I try a thematic crew), and most models are rarely great on their own - but can stand out when supported.

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 I absolutely agree with you that swill is  great ability. I think a lot of my issues are based on survival, which is why I was focused on hid aura. My particular problem also stems from my most common opponent playing 10 Thunders so a Yasunori plus Mccabe, Asami or whatever future master he picks up. I have no desire to really focus on that aura but facing that flying chainsaw who is as good as immune to swill at more than 6 inches away with smoke grenades (negative from stubborn, negative from smoke grenades  for a net value of straight from a successfully focused and stoned swill) means I do so to keep my master alive.

 I should really make a post about an s.o.s. for dealing with Yasunori, haha. So far it's been hire a strong arm and Zipp or maybe just Zipp.

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11 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

Yeah that's probably all fairly true.

 

I mean, the crew was my first when I (recently!) got into Malifaux, and for ages I was trying so hard to make the poison thing work.

It was like an epiphany when I figured out spamming Binge was the best bet - but it's a departure from what it seems the model/tri chi are trying to do, and clear that it might not be as intended originally.

 

For Moon Shinobi, I've had nothing but awesome results from these guys. I find there's an element of skills overlap in Tri Chi (I try a thematic crew), and most models are rarely great on their own - but can stand out when supported.

I just find Moon Shinobi are not usually worth it when you compare them for example with the drunken monks. Or a rooster rider. Just a little nudge would make them shine again!

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On 19/08/2017 at 11:50 PM, lame0 said:

1-2 ss experimental cask 

(1) "it's in the air!" 

You gave me an idea there - it might be a nice little boost to both Brewmaster and the Pigapult if Brewy had an upgrade ability to turn said 'Pult into a barrel-slinging trebuchet, so as to spread that Poison around...

(1) "Eating's Cheating": target friendly Pigapult gains the following Attack Action until the end of the Turn: "(1) Keg Party!!! (Sh 5 :crow/ Rst: Df / Rg: 24): Target suffers 1/2:blast/4:blast:blast Damage. This Action does not require LoS to the target and ignores Cover.

     :crowAll models damaged by this Attack gain the Poison +1 Condition a number of times equal to the number of :crowin the final dual total."

 

Any good? Or too good? It would have the potential to spray a LOT of Poison around each turn, and there's not a lot the blasted models could do to protect themselves.

Then again, the Pigapult is an expensive piece, and if you're doing Keg Party with it, you're not doing Bacon Loads or Flinging, so...

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Usually, I think it is best to be somewhat conservative when making changes to existing models, so I would start small if I were to update anything from Brewmasters thematic crew. But I do agree that he is the most struggling master we have, and his crew does need something. I would probably start by changing That's the Stuff on the Shinobi to allow them to push instead of taking poison damage as opposed to the current in addition to taking poison damage. When paired with the new A Friendly Ear upgrade, Brewmaster could use a low crow to give a nearby Moon Shinobi +-flips and poison, allowing him to obey it much more easily, maximising the value of those +-flips.

I would also suggest changing the Angry Drunk upgrade. Perhaps allow the Whiskey Golem to ignore armor if it has the upgrade.

And of course Brewmaster himself has two upgrades that are never used and one that is very situational. On top of that, I really consider A Barkeep Never Sleeps to be a Sammy only upgrade, as the (0) would allow Brewmaster to have a third life in extreme cases. I had hoped that the mask from A Friendly Ear would be applied to all opposed duels with a model with posion, that would at least have made his defensive trigger slightly relevant, as it is, it will never be used when an enemy controlled model attacks him, and in all other cases it is really too expensive.

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@Runeman The Moon Shinobi definitely need some changes.

I would start by lowering their points cost to 5SS so they better compete with the Ten Thunders Fermented River Monks (yes I know the upgrade to hire them in Gremlins is 2 SS so a pair of monks costs the same as a pair of Moon Shinobi but I still consider the Fermented River Monks the superior option). Following that, I would give the Moon Shinobi either an immunity to Poison Damage and remove That's the Stuff (replacing it with their 0 action Where'd you get that into a once per activation ability) or change That's the Stuff to provide :-fate modifiers instead of a push. The latter is probably a better solution as it makes them more viable outside of the Brew Master's crew without making them over the top.

This would put the Brew Master in a more competitive spot within the faction as his crew would then fit more in line with the denial/debuff, tarpit, slow attrition concept they seem to be intended for.

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I think moon shinobi need higher stats more than anything. Base 4 or 5 attack and glass cannon, they will die easily and not hit often. Perhaps let them give a :-fate flip for one duel to themselves and a nearby poisoned foe? Or let them give :+fate to themselves and :-fate to an enemy by spending a poison during a duel, penalizing you both but if they have swill they have the advantage.

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On 9/23/2017 at 1:06 AM, edopersichetti said:

I just find Moon Shinobi are not usually worth it when you compare them for example with the drunken monks. Or a rooster rider. Just a little nudge would make them shine again!

 

Rooster rider, sure, although it depends on what you're looking for.

As for Drunken Monks, I don't really see it. Moon Shinobi are incredibly fast (17" first turn? :D) 

The Moon Shinobi have better stats, as it takes a bit of a buildup of poison for the Monk to get to the same DF.
The Monk can look like it has better damage with the poison addition, but then it loses DF again. In contrast, the number of times you can have a double positive flip for Moon Shinobi for damage is ridiculous, so they are a lot more consistent.

Monks can have reactivate, but it needs a lot of work, and then you're losing your DF6 again. Which the Shinobi always have. 

Where'd You Get That is also fantastic, if you're throwing poison all over the shop with Akaname and Oiran etc, pushes are great!

On 9/24/2017 at 6:08 AM, Nukemouse said:

I think moon shinobi need higher stats more than anything. Base 4 or 5 attack and glass cannon, they will die easily and not hit often. Perhaps let them give a :-fate flip for one duel to themselves and a nearby poisoned foe? Or let them give :+fate to themselves and :-fate to an enemy by spending a poison during a duel, penalizing you both but if they have swill they have the advantage.

Moon Shinobi already have great Df and reasonable Wp. They attack Df or Wp, and it's rare for me that they miss both of their attacks. Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu is too great, especially when you cheat in a card to have exactly the same score as your target - triple flips for damage anyone? :D

Models can't use defensive stance against them, or hard to wound, or anything similar. I'm sounding like a Moon Shinobi fan boy, but I think they're fantastic and underrated on the 'net. So do my opponents.

 

On 9/23/2017 at 5:30 AM, Omenbringer said:

I tend to agree with you @edoperischetti the Moon Shinobi really need something outside of the Brew Master' actions to provide the all-important :-fate modifiers for them to pull their weight over other options.

I use Wesley more than any other to apply Binge to the Moon Shinobi. With Brewmaster, that's a lot of sources for the :-fate ! 

Edited by Cadaver_Junkie
speeeeelllllinggg
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On 23/9/2017 at 10:08 PM, Nukemouse said:

I think moon shinobi need higher stats more than anything. Base 4 or 5 attack and glass cannon, they will die easily and not hit often. Perhaps let them give a :-fate flip for one duel to themselves and a nearby poisoned foe? Or let them give :+fate to themselves and :-fate to an enemy by spending a poison during a duel, penalizing you both but if they have swill they have the advantage.

It sounds like you haven't tried them. Their Tiny Green Fists of Fury connects most of the time in my experience. But you are right that the Roundhouse could have increased Ml.

People tend to underestimate the value of some of the more complex models, and overestimate the difference between models that are used a lot and those that are rarely used. And Moon Shinobi are really some of the most complex models in the game. This means that they will need some more skill to get the most out of. Even so, I think they could use a small tweak, and in particular I would prefer if none of their abilities required them to take damage to give a bonus.

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It seems like the consensus is that Moon Shinobi need a bit of a tweak (and there are several excellent ideas here) to at least be competitive with models in the same SS range, and possibly be the prime choice in a thematic Brewie crew.

As for Brewie himself, just the one change with an :pulse effect would be enough to make him a lot more viable on the Poison road...

It is not out of the question: masters like Lucius and Ironsides which were universally considered underwhelming have been adjusted and improved greatly!

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Agreed. One of the problems with Brewmaster as with some masters that have received an errata, is that there is one action that will be taken around 90% of the time currently. Perhaps that will change slightly with the new upgrade(s) (really only one of them has the potential), but if not, he is probably the most worthy master around for a bit of a makeover.

Edit: They could consider fixing Burt at the same time as Brewmaster, as he is clearly too good currently. Perhaps just changing Reckless to Nimble or give him a push of some sort instead.

Edited by Runeman
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14 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

I use Wesley more than any other to apply Binge to the Moon Shinobi. With Brewmaster, that's a lot of sources for the :-fate ! 

2

I assume you are talking about Hangover and not Binge. While this is definitely an option those :-fate modifiers are generally better served on an opponents model (where it benefits the entire crew) than your Moon Shinobi (which are the only beneficiaries).  Additionally, Wesley isn't nearly as good at throwing out Swill as the Brewmaster, can only provide 2 :-fate modifiers per activation, and is a fairly squishy high priority target. The Moon Shinobi need a method of generating their own :-fate modifiers independent of the Brewmaster.

@Runeman I don't agree that Moon Shinobi are that complicated really, they just pale in comparison to other options available. Particularly those that don't require a ton of additional support to make work. This is why the Fermented River Monks are often the superior option. Even when you add in the potential support from the Brew Master, the Fermented River Monks come out ahead. Sure the Brew Master and Wesley could throw out potentially 5 :-fate modifiers on a pair of Moon Shinobi but have they really improved that much? Defense wise they might be more difficult to hit (because they get to draw up to 4 cards and can cheat) and offensively they might hit more often (again because they can potentially draw up to 4 cards and cheat) but your opponents models can still cheat and the damage profile is exactly the same. The Fermented River Monks in the same situation (though with Brewmaster and Wesley throwing :-fate  modifiers on two key enemy models instead) can have more effect, particularly if they have built up some Poison on themselves. The Monks are more difficult to hit (because affected opponents models won't be able to cheat and have to take the lowest card unless they can somehow generate enough :+fate  modifiers to offset it. This is before you consider that Poison 2 gives them Df 6) and will do more damage at the valuable weak and moderate levels than the Moon Shinobi (before you even consider the in-built Drunken Strength trigger damage addition). We don't even need to discuss the Monks ability to generate their own reactivate, which can be huge in a lot of situations.

As I have said in other threads, I really want to like the Moon Shinobi, absolutely love the models, but as is they just aren't a good option in a lot of circumstances.

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7 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

I assume you are talking about Hangover and not Binge. While this is definitely an option those :-fate modifiers are generally better served on an opponents model (where it benefits the entire crew) than your Moon Shinobi (which are the only beneficiaries).  Additionally, Wesley isn't nearly as good at throwing out Swill as the Brewmaster, can only provide 2 :-fate modifiers per activation, and is a fairly squishy high priority target. The Moon Shinobi need a method of generating their own :-fate modifiers independent of the Brewmaster.

I tend to aim Brewmaster at enemy models, and Wesley at the Moon Shinobi, so it's a real mix. He'll never really fail a hangover targeting a Moon Shinobi as they just relent, and I like certainty in this game.

 

7 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

 

@Runeman I don't agree that Moon Shinobi are that complicated really, they just pale in comparison to other options available. Particularly those that don't require a ton of additional support to make work. This is why the Fermented River Monks are often the superior option. Even when you add in the potential support from the Brew Master, the Fermented River Monks come out ahead. Sure the Brew Master and Wesley could throw out potentially 5 :-fate modifiers on a pair of Moon Shinobi but have they really improved that much? Defense wise they might be more difficult to hit (because they get to draw up to 4 cards and can cheat) and offensively they might hit more often (again because they can potentially draw up to 4 cards and cheat) but your opponents models can still cheat and the damage profile is exactly the same. The Fermented River Monks in the same situation (though with Brewmaster and Wesley throwing :-fate  modifiers on two key enemy models instead) can have more effect, particularly if they have built up some Poison on themselves. The Monks are more difficult to hit (because affected opponents models won't be able to cheat and have to take the lowest card unless they can somehow generate enough :+fate  modifiers to offset it. This is before you consider that Poison 2 gives them Df 6) and will do more damage at the valuable weak and moderate levels than the Moon Shinobi (before you even consider the in-built Drunken Strength trigger damage addition). We don't even need to discuss the Monks ability to generate their own reactivate, which can be huge in a lot of situations.

Well, you don't have to use the Moon Shinobi. Variety is the spice of the game.

But as I said - Brewmaster targets enemies, Wesley targets friendly Moon Shinobi. Affected models attacking either Monks or Shinobi often can't cheat due to :-fate as you say, however Shinobi don't need any poison to be DF6, and are better when there's a lot of enemy models to contend with, with all the :+fate  they have from Wesley. 

Potential monk reactivation can be weighed against all the free pushes available to the gremlins, so that can go either way.

So maybe... I'd personally support the idea that Monks are possibly better versus less enemy models, and Shinobi are better versus the swarm. Each are better in different ways against different masters, which is always the issue in this game.

Each to their own though! And I'm definitely still working on building more game experience here. Just... pretty much every time I've used Moon Shinobi, they shine bright on the table. Fermented Monks, less so. The Moon Shinobi are just so mobile!

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