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Delude by Broken promises (for the moment)


EpicWaffle

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Footnotes are the enemy of clarity, when it comes to reading. Proximity is better. Proximity is not optional reading. Also, Malifaux formatting does not currently do more than capitalize a condition, which is not enough of a signal to look for a footnote. Maybe it works in the video game @Dogmantra wrote about, with extra formatting for the name of every condition. But then, looking at Malifaux 1.5 cards with only the names of abilities on the front of the card effectively making every ability described in a footnote elsewhere on the card, I would say the other way has been tried and found lacking!

12 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

They do appear to be gaining more text with each new wave. The mind abhors empty space.

Unfortunately, unstandardized brevity has also been tried and found lacking. I prefer the older, longer text of Hard to Kill, for one. Cards will probably get wordier until all game terms are standardized. (Heck, even Swordfighter got wordier--there's two different iterations of it in Wyrd Chronicles and we have word-of-Aaron that the longer, more specific version is the final one.)

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On 8/10/2017 at 9:55 PM, Omenbringer said:

I agree that they have really lost their way with the faction. Most of our model release from the last few books have been out of sorts and really seemed to be more useful out of faction than in. I would blame the initial synergistic and self-destructive designs. Most games seem to really struggle with implementing synergy on a wide scale. Generally, you tend to either require so much of it to make your models function that it defeats the purpose (what I typically refer to as "Menoth Syndrom") or you have to either omit or counter it with future options. The issues with the self-destruction piece should be obvious but just in case...when your models have to hurt themselves to do what they do, then you either have to provide a healing mechanic, a replacement option, or make them cheaper than their contemporaries. We see each option implemented in Gremlin's and each comes with it's own opportunity cost (these often exacerbate "Menoth Syndrom" and also make the onion more fragile).

I think Gremlin's are at a point where these limitations are becoming very noticeable. Some great examples of these can be found in the Pigapult (which is expensive and always seems to work flawlessly in battle reports... wish mine was half as reliable) and models that lack the crucial key words "Gremlin" or "Pig" in their characteristic line (In a faction that is built heavily around those two words, models that don't have them tend to be shelf sitters).

I also agree that the current "hate" targeting the faction is really more attributable to the current Gaining Grounds Strats and Schemes than anything else. I might also add that it could also likely be due to the skill of players currently piloting Gremlin's in high profile events.

Unfortunately, what is competitive is usually sedated. With most factions this isn't usually an issue, they tend to be singular models or at the high end of the hiring pool (Think of that wonderful Mechanical Rider whi has had some work over the years). With ours, the complaints are generally targetted at our staple models which we need to function at all (Bayou Gremlin's who always seem to have 3-4 AP due to the perfect and consistent positioning of support models like the Slop Hauler and Iron Skeeters) or Slop Haulers (who always seem to be able to pass out the maximum amount of healing, remain highly mobile, and protected without support models tending them).

Sorry if this feels like a rant, it isn't intended to be but I have grown "crotchety" over the years.

Complaints tend to come from players who don't actually play Gremlin's and have only seen them work spectacularly (i.e. near perfectly).

If you remember the old Red Joker debate it is a similar argument. The Red Joker's appearance is memorable because it is typically seen and does great things (perhaps on a damage flip) where as a lot of players rarely see the Black Joker cause many issues. Despite having the same card rarity (1 in 54), the Black Joker tends to pop out a lot less because if a player draws it into their control hand then it tends to sit there the rest of the game where as the red Joker is allowed to run. The appearance of the Red Joker is usually very memorable because it is either spectacular or pulls victory from defeat. The Black Joker tends to be less memorable because it's appearance is far from spectacular ;)

I really hope that they don't alter much for the faction with the next errata. The complaints seem to be more related to the current batch of Strats/ Schemes than anything else really. Let the Strats and Shcemes shift and see if the issue remains. I doubt it will.

So the problem with Gremlin's is the handful of models that can be hired out of faction and played with upgrades they were very likely never really tested with (yes I am confident in saying this). Again the faction is not the issue it is the models that can be cross pollinated out of faction. Easy errata there, remove the Mercenary Characteristic or restrict key abilities to only when hired in faction.

Without trying to sound condescending, I think once you start actually running Gremlin's yourself, your opinion on their power level will change dramatically. They really tend to be "feast or famine" (yes even the competitive ones). I have played Gremlin's since first edition and consider myself fairly adept with them. My community doesn't consider them broken or a NPE. Now if you want to talk about models needing serious errata's let's head on over to some of those Book 4 crews. That would be a pretty good place to start working on toning things down.

This is a very accurate analysis and I wish the guys at the Wyrd design team would listen to some of this. The situation with Gremlins is really getting out of hand. I just got Broken Promises and now I can confirm that none of the upgrades improve our masters in any significant way (except perhaps for Ulix) and none of the new models is going to be particularly attractive. This is not the same as what happened to other factions with a larger and louder fan base.

There are lot of complaints and I feel few of them are justified since they come from non-Gremlin players who don't necessarily know all the mechanics of the faction, plus they mostly seem to come from the current strat/scheme pool as you say. Besides, everybody complains about Somer, Wong or Zipp, but what about Mah, Ophelia, Brewmaster and yes, even Zoraida? Despite repeated appeals from the Gremlins community, I can't see that much is being done to help these guys out, so the erratas feel very one-way. IMO, if you cuddle Stuffed Piglets, Roosters, Lenny etc, then you also have to give something back and improve underperforming models such as Moon Shinobi, Gators, Bushwackers, most of the Kin which is not Francois etc.

I'm particularly in favor of removing the Merc characteristic from the likes of Burt and McTavish, or at least limit key abilities to when in-faction. After all, something similar already exists, for example, with Coryphee Duet.

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3 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

This is a very accurate analysis and I wish the guys at the Wyrd design team would listen to some of this. The situation with Gremlins is really getting out of hand. I just got Broken Promises and now I can confirm that none of the upgrades improve our masters in any significant way (except perhaps for Ulix) and none of the new models is going to be particularly attractive. This is not the same as what happened to other factions with a larger and louder fan base.

There are lot of complaints and I feel few of them are justified since they come from non-Gremlin players who don't necessarily know all the mechanics of the faction, plus they mostly seem to come from the current strat/scheme pool as you say. Besides, everybody complains about Somer, Wong or Zipp, but what about Mah, Ophelia, Brewmaster and yes, even Zoraida? Despite repeated appeals from the Gremlins community, I can't see that much is being done to help these guys out, so the erratas feel very one-way. IMO, if you cuddle Stuffed Piglets, Roosters, Lenny etc, then you also have to give something back and improve underperforming models such as Moon Shinobi, Gators, Bushwackers, most of the Kin which is not Francois etc.

I'm particularly in favor of removing the Merc characteristic from the likes of Burt and McTavish, or at least limit key abilities to when in-faction. After all, something similar already exists, for example, with Coryphee Duet.

Didn`t Mah, Zoraida and Ulix get decent upgrades? People are also suggesting the Bayou Zipp upgrade is also quite good.

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Just now, trikk said:

Didn`t Mah, Zoraida and Ulix get decent upgrades? People are also suggesting the Bayou Zipp upgrade is also quite good.

Ulix, definitely (I mentioned him as an exception). Mah: upgrade helps a bit, haven't tested it yet TBH, but she was so uncompetitive before that I doubt an extra 1" range and some card drawing would make her competitive now - she needs much more than that. As someone above said, Zipp can do just about everything Mah does, better. I think Mah's upgrade is more like a "fix" that should have been incorporated in her original card, rather than something that adds to her.
Zoraida: yes, one upgrade (powerful obey and bewitch) is decent, even though it's hungry for suits. Also she gets quite a few new models. So I have the feeling that with her they are trying a bit more (perhaps because of her Neverborn half? ;) ). Her mechanics are so unique that she is a niche choice any way - could work great in the right matchup and scheme pool, but not always.

As for the Zipp upgrades: one is awful, the other one is so weird that I don't really know what it's meant to achieve. Giving Bayous a possible Incite, and trying to add mobility to a master who is already VERY mobile. I could see it only on Sammy, but then it's really a Sammy upgrade, not a Zipp upgrade. And still, the mechanics are so weird...for instance, I didn't yet understand what happens if at some point you run out of Bayous (which, you know, is very likely seeing how easily they tend to die).

End of story: unfortunately at the moment I still think you'll mostly see the infamous trio Somer Wong Zipp at any given tournament.

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I have no idea what kind of twisted logic you have to use to convince yourself that Burt is fine in Gremlins but broken in other factions costing 1ss more. What are the best things he can access outside Gremlins? Debt to the Guild, Fast, :+fate for attacks? He can get Fast with Gremlins as well, although maybe not quite as easily. He has critical strike, so :ram for all duels is as good as +1 damage, and there are several ways of getting that. He also has access to cheap healing and armor ignore when playing Gremlins, which is pretty damn good in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Myyrä said:

I have no idea what kind of twisted logic you have to use to convince yourself that Burt is fine in Gremlins but broken in other factions costing 1ss more. What are the best things he can access outside Gremlins? Debt to the Guild, Fast, :+fate for attacks? He can get Fast with Gremlins as well, although maybe not quite as easily. He has critical strike, so :ram for all duels is as good as +1 damage, and there are several ways of getting that. He also has access to cheap healing and armor ignore when playing Gremlins, which is pretty damn good in my opinion.

Slippery is also a bit easier because you have spammable 3SS models.

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Just now, trikk said:

Slippery is also a bit easier because you have spammable 3SS models.

I guess that's debatable since I might prefer to slip the attacks on a nearby Peacekeeper rather than Bayou Gremlins.

He does greatly benefit from outactivating the opponent, though, because he is relatively fragile compared to how big a threat he is otherwise.

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On 8/11/2017 at 4:00 PM, trikk said:

 

2) I had Burt and Tavish with Nellie. I played against them in a Shenlong crew. I just sold all my Guild and those 2 with the rest. I will probably continue playing with them more

3) I`m having my first two games with Somer next thursday ;)

BETRAYAL!  Inform the Witch Hunters!

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11 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I guess that's debatable since I might prefer to slip the attacks on a nearby Peacekeeper rather than Bayou Gremlins.

He does greatly benefit from outactivating the opponent, though, because he is relatively fragile compared to how big a threat he is otherwise.

It is not MY logic (see comments from @Omenbringer@trikk and several others) and it's certainly not twisted: it's one of the Gremlin models everyone likes to complain about. Hiring out of faction is not all about upgrades, but about internal balance, too. Factions are thankfully still different from each other and so, by design, each faction has several unique aspects, and lacks other. If Burt and McTavish get hired out of faction so often, it's because they provide something the factions don't have. It would be equally as bad if, say, Neverborn got access to mass healing, for example. Seeing him in a Nellie crew feels...wrong. And it probably puts Nellie's crew, which is already over the top, in an even more unbalanced place. I'm sure Gremlins would love to hire a Peacekeeper, or Yin...

By the way, Burt's critical strike is built-in so he can get it in any faction...In Gremlins, he most of the times takes Dirty Cheater, which does help him survive a bit, but that's about it. I can think of a lot of other upgrades that can be better than that, adding in Fast or positives is something he can't get in Gremlins, for example.

He sure benefits from out-activation (but then, most things do...).

I'm gonna stop here as I don't want to go into a lengthy argument, since you're heavily biased against Gremlins as a faction, so it'd be pretty pointless. Just please enjoy whatever faction you like to play, and let us enjoy ours without constantly crying for "cuddle this" and "Gremlins are OP" and the like.

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3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

I'm gonna stop here as I don't want to go into a lengthy argument, since you're heavily biased against Gremlins as a faction, so it'd be pretty pointless. Just please enjoy whatever faction you like to play, and let us enjoy ours without constantly crying for "cuddle this" and "Gremlins are OP" and the like.

I'd like to point out I already had my first Somer game :P

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Hilariously stupidly good. The card draw aura and thinkin luck damage combined with Do It Like Dis is super silly. Merris is the best scheme runner I played in Malifaux and mass reckless and (nonmass) bayou two cards are super good.

 

I'm with you on merris. You just gotta make sure she doesn't die in the middle of your crew, but that's relatively easy to ensure

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6 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

It is not MY logic (see comments from @Omenbringer@trikk and several others) and it's certainly not twisted: it's one of the Gremlin models everyone likes to complain about. Hiring out of faction is not all about upgrades, but about internal balance, too. Factions are thankfully still different from each other and so, by design, each faction has several unique aspects, and lacks other. If Burt and McTavish get hired out of faction so often, it's because they provide something the factions don't have. It would be equally as bad if, say, Neverborn got access to mass healing, for example. Seeing him in a Nellie crew feels...wrong. And it probably puts Nellie's crew, which is already over the top, in an even more unbalanced place. I'm sure Gremlins would love to hire a Peacekeeper, or Yin...

By the way, Burt's critical strike is built-in so he can get it in any faction...In Gremlins, he most of the times takes Dirty Cheater, which does help him survive a bit, but that's about it. I can think of a lot of other upgrades that can be better than that, adding in Fast or positives is something he can't get in Gremlins, for example.

He sure benefits from out-activation (but then, most things do...).

I'm gonna stop here as I don't want to go into a lengthy argument, since you're heavily biased against Gremlins as a faction, so it'd be pretty pointless. Just please enjoy whatever faction you like to play, and let us enjoy ours without constantly crying for "cuddle this" and "Gremlins are OP" and the like.

If only Gremlins had access to models which gave out fast, or models which gave suits to duels, or models which gave +1 damage, or positives to attack flips. 

That might be as bad as Neverborn having a master that had an aura of regen 3 for mass healing. 

Glad I don't live in a world where this is possible...

 

(I don't think I'm biased against gremlins, I think they are ok. there are some models which are not as good as I think they ought to be, and they suffer a lot of mental inflexibility in the player base (not the only faction that has this issue though) meaning only a small core of models is used which I think does the faction a huge mis-service. There are also things in the faction which are on the upper end of the balance scale. I do dislike blatantly wrong statements)

 

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25 minutes ago, Adran said:

If only Gremlins had access to models which gave out fast, or models which gave suits to duels, or models which gave +1 damage, or positives to attack flips. 

That might be as bad as Neverborn having a master that had an aura of regen 3 for mass healing. 

Glad I don't live in a world where this is possible...

 

(I don't think I'm biased against gremlins, I think they are ok. there are some models which are not as good as I think they ought to be, and they suffer a lot of mental inflexibility in the player base (not the only faction that has this issue though) meaning only a small core of models is used which I think does the faction a huge mis-service. There are also things in the faction which are on the upper end of the balance scale. I do dislike blatantly wrong statements)

 

I agree with you. People tend to think 'why should I take model A, when I can take model B which is cheaper/have better or more abilities/i take every time'. And of course highly competitive play style attitude is not helping either.

 

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Gremlins have internal balance issues, outside of few marginal players using very narrow lists and placing in top of tournaments, gremlins don't show up in casual play.

The game mechanic problem that gremlins are a culprit to is we do not have many good models, people playing other factions look at our rules/models and after a hard deciding factor they chose to start another faction that is non-gremlin.

Players that do pick up Gremlins and want to play "in theme"  and for "funzies" quickly drop the faction as they found out they lose every single game to other "funzie" list ( I have that word, does not apply to Malifaux).

 

I would say out of 30 people in Chicago-land area there is me and another henchmen that have been playing gremlins for couple years now.

If neither of us play gremlins at local tourney, 0 gremlin presence. (This is very very bad)

 

This goes back to, we need ore buffs for under performers to make them viable option as opposed to cuddling our good choices.

At this point in time new players getting into gremlins are in line to get a "hat in the bag" treatment

 

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59 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Gremlins have internal balance issues, outside of few marginal players using very narrow lists and placing in top of tournaments, gremlins don't show up in casual play.

The game mechanic problem that gremlins are a culprit to is we do not have many good models, people playing other factions look at our rules/models and after a hard deciding factor they chose to start another faction that is non-gremlin.

Players that do pick up Gremlins and want to play "in theme"  and for "funzies" quickly drop the faction as they found out they lose every single game to other "funzie" list ( I have that word, does not apply to Malifaux).

 

I would say out of 30 people in Chicago-land area there is me and another henchmen that have been playing gremlins for couple years now.

If neither of us play gremlins at local tourney, 0 gremlin presence. (This is very very bad)

 

This goes back to, we need ore buffs for under performers to make them viable option as opposed to cuddling our good choices.

At this point in time new players getting into gremlins are in line to get a "hat in the bag" treatment

 

Well said: this photographs the problem exactly. I am also the only Gremlin player in my meta - if sometimes I decide to play Neverborn, or something else, 0 Gremlins in the scene... :(

On the buffs side, I'm please to report that I had a good time with some of the new stuff in my latest game - I'll write a post soon in the Gremlins faction discussion.

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

@Math Mathonwysaid I need 3 games. Since Somer x3 would be easy mode I`ll go Somer/Ulix/Zipp. When he paints up Mah I`ll probably play her too.

;)

Still, Som'er/Ulix/Zipp are 3 very good masters...the community usually rates Wong higher than Ulix, but I personally have had always more success with the pig horde. So yeah, you might conclude that Gremlins kick ass...until you play Mah, Pheela and Brewie.

Mind you, it is totally possible to win games with Mah/Ophelia/Brewie, but they generally tend to suffer a bit and I'm curious to see what an expert player like you can get out of them.

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