What to buy next?

[emiba]

It's that time again, the time to decide what to buy next! Based on the information below, could you please help me rate my suggestions (and feel free to make your own!), preferably with a 'why' so I can weigh them all together.

What I have:

• Mother of Monsters (Lilith)
• Dark Debts (Jakob Lynch)
• The Queen's Return (Titania)
• Mr Graves

What I want to achieve:
Variety - I'm trying to collect two factions in order to be able to demo the game to other players in the area to lure (yes, lure) them into playing Malifaux.
Synergy - with the existing models and between suggested additions.

What I'm considering:

• Generalist Upgrade Deck 1 (the second one is unfortunately out of stock)
• Changelings - for scheme running option beside tots, with ability to copy nasty attacks
• Doppleganger - for being so versatile
• Mysterious Effigy - for durable scheme running and versatility
• Primordial Magic - Synergy with Lilith (and Titania?)
• Rougarou - Pouncing and beating things up
• Widow Weaver - For debuffing WP and being generally annoying
• Johan - for beating things up and removing conditions

Thanks in advance!

[dancater]

I'll be honest, not a huge NB player but thought I'd add some views anyway.

Now this is totally left field but have you considered Lucius box since his cuddle he has become very interesting and you already have some models he likes in NB and are thinking of others he works well with.  Lucius loves the Illuminated which are in Dark Debts, he likes the Tots and also Mr Graves as well.  

Now I'd add (regardless of Lucius)

• Doppleganger because its just that good.
• Primordial Magic also superb model

Also like 

• Changelings (especially for Lucius)
• Widow Weaver because she is immensely aggravating
• Johan is a very useful model
• Depleted are first class sticky models and synergize with Jacob (and Lucius)
• Mr Tannen is a good model for Jacob (excellent for Lucius)
• Mysterious Effigy is a solid little fellow
• Seriously consider Young Nephlim, Mature Nephlim and Black Blood Shaman to run Lillith spawn lists

Any of the upgrade decks are useful if you don't have them, but not essential as you can print on demand the cards.

My understanding of the Rougarou is it is good but not amazing.

 

[emiba]

11 minutes ago, dancater said:

Now this is totally left field but have you considered Lucius box since his cuddle he has become very interesting and you already have some models he likes in NB and are thinking of others he works well with.  Lucius loves the Illuminated which are in Dark Debts, he likes the Tots and also Mr Graves as well.

I have actually had my eyes on Lucius for a long while, however, since I'm rather new to the game, I think I'll stick to the 3 masters I already have for now.

11 minutes ago, dancater said:

Now I'd add (regardless of Lucius)

• Doppleganger because its just that good.
• Primordial Magic also superb model

These are the ones I think I'm more or less guaranteed to include.

11 minutes ago, dancater said:

Also like 

• Changelings (especially for Lucius)
• Widow Weaver because she is immensely aggravating
• Johan is a very useful model
• Depleted are first class sticky models and synergize with Jacob (and Lucius)
• Mr Tannen is a good model for Jacob (excellent for Lucius)
• Mysterious Effigy is a solid little fellow
• Seriously consider Young Nephlim, Mature Nephlim and Black Blood Shaman to run Lillith spawn lists

While the Depleted, Tannen and Nephilim are all interesting, they're simply too far down on the list to make budget for this round.

11 minutes ago, dancater said:

My understanding of the Rougarou is it is good but not amazing.

Rougarou look really interesting on the card, but they are a bit pricey and with quite a few other things on my list being in the same SS cost range, maybe I'm better off chosing something else...

[Sybaris]

Since you have Lilith and Titania, might i suggest Nekima, as she works very well with both of those masters.

If you're seriously considering Young Nephilims and a Mature and a Black Blood Shaman...she is going to fit even better.

[emiba]

3 minutes ago, Sybaris said:

Since you have Lilith and Titania, might i suggest Nekima, as she works very well with both of those masters.

If you're seriously considering Young Nephilims and a Mature and a Black Blood Shaman...she is going to fit even better.

I am considering her, though not in this order. I'll probably end up getting the alt Nekima from Wyrd website during GenCon. That's why she's not on the list. But she definitely fit in with Lilith in particular an as a beater in general.

[Sybaris]

Agreed entirely, the new model is on my list too. Don't underestimate her capacity with Titania, i've used her a few times and was surprised.

[(Keenan)]

Seconded for the Neverborn All Stars: Doppelganger, Johan, Nekima, Primordial. Beyond them maybe a Lilitu for lures and 4 inch engagement. Rougarou for Titania. 

[catbat07]

1 hour ago, (Keenan) said:

Seconded for the Neverborn All Stars: Doppelganger, Johan, Nekima, Primordial. Beyond them maybe a Lilitu for lures and 4 inch engagement.

This.

[emiba]

What about changelings? How often do they make it onto your lists?

[Angelshard]

Is nekima worth it if you don't have young or mature? Her personal upgrade will be useless and she won't be carrying the nephilim specific ones either I'm guessing

[Adran]

13 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

Is nekima worth it if you don't have young or mature? Her personal upgrade will be useless and she won't be carrying the nephilim specific ones either I'm guessing

Yes. Her personal upgrade lets her summon tots, so you don't need young or mature anyway.

And the reason you hire Nekima is normally because she does huge amounts of damage with her 3 AP and minimum 4 sword with  flips. The upgrade is a side effect that you may or may not want. Its certainly not compulsory on her

[esqulax]

21 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes. Her personal upgrade lets her summon tots, so you don't need young or mature anyway.

And the reason you hire Nekima is normally because she does huge amounts of damage with her 3 AP and minimum 4 sword with  flips. The upgrade is a side effect that you may or may not want. Its certainly not compulsory on her

Her attack doesn't have + flips. I think you are thinking of the mature.


As for the question in the post, I would go with Doppel and Primordial as must buys with Widow Weaver, Lelu&Lilithu and Changelings after that. A lot of people sing Nekimas praise, but recently I have begun discovering that I might actually prefer the Mature, but that is probably just me. 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, esqulax said:

Her attack doesn't have + flips. I think you are thinking of the mature.


As for the question in the post, I would go with Doppel and Primordial as must buys with Widow Weaver, Lelu&Lilithu and Changelings after that. A lot of people sing Nekimas praise, but recently I have begun discovering that I might actually prefer the Mature, but that is probably just me. 

You're right. I think I was mixing her up with Lileths 2 swords. 

I like the Mature as well, and its a really solid beater.

To the original poster, I  personally wouldn't go Primordial magic, unless you have a master whose totem you never use. In the early stages of building forces, buying a model that means you can't use a model you already own is not always popular. The Magic is good, but its not as good in gaining grounds as it was in the rulebook schemes (due to their end of game scoring, and ability for 1 scheme marker to earn you 2 VPs). Rush of magic is still a great ability. 

I also would not suggest the doppleganger, because I think ill omens is an ability that if you  have access to as you learn to play, teaches you to rely on it. Once you start making plans that only work if you go first, you have to start putting her in every list to support them. 

Upgrade Deck is really useful. 

Effigy is awesome, and all crews are happy to run an effigy. (its stas are very good for a 4 point model)

After that I wasn't sure are you trying to be able to run 2 neverborn crews at the same time, or are you also planning on starting a different faction. If you are going for more than 1 faction, then Johan goes up in value. You have enough to build a variety of neverborn crews at the moment, but yo may struggle to field 2 at the same time.

The nephilm box isn't a bad shout. The Mature is a good top end beater, and the young are reasonable minions

[emiba]

Thank you so much for your input, I truly appreciate it!

2 hours ago, esqulax said:

As for the question in the post, I would go with Doppel and Primordial as must buys with Widow Weaver, Lelu&Lilithu and Changelings after that. A lot of people sing Nekimas praise, but recently I have begun discovering that I might actually prefer the Mature, but that is probably just me. 

That's pretty much were I ended up too, I just struggle with the priorities after doppelganger and primordial.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

To the original poster, I  personally wouldn't go Primordial magic, unless you have a master whose totem you never use. In the early stages of building forces, buying a model that means you can't use a model you already own is not always popular. The Magic is good, but its not as good in gaining grounds as it was in the rulebook schemes (due to their end of turn scoring, and ability for 1 scheme marker to earn you 2 VPs). Rush of magic is still a great ability. 

I also would not suggest the doppleganger, because I think ill omens is an ability that if you  have access to as you learn to play, teaches you to rely on it. Once you start making plans that only work if you go first, you have to start putting her in every list to support them. 

Upgrade Deck is really useful. 

Effigy is awesome, and all crews are happy to run an effigy. (its stas are very good for a 4 point model)

After that I wasn't sure are you trying to be able to run 2 neverborn crews at the same time, or are you also planning on starting a different faction. If you are going for more than 1 faction, then Johan goes up in value. You have enough to build a variety of neverborn crews at the moment, but yo may struggle to field 2 at the same time.

The nephilm box isn't a bad shout. The Mature is a good top end beater, and the young are reasonable minions

So refreshing with a differing view! The primordial is there as an alternative to the cherub and the gorar. I see what you mean but what I hear is people use either only when they don't have primordial. I'll give all of them a try but I think I want the option to field the primordial. Same goes for the doppelganger. Almost everyone seems to recommend it and I think I'll rather take care not too rely on ill omens than deny myself the other abilities it has.

Nephilim is a good suggestion, I'll look into them. It's a pretty pricey box though if I'm only using it for the mature, how good are the young?

I am building a collection of Resurrectionists alongside the Neverborn so it's enough to be able to build one crew at the time, although I'd be happy to be able to build varied crews from each faction.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, emiba said:

So refreshing with a differing view! The primordial is there as an alternative to the cherub and the gorar. I see what you mean but what I hear is people use either only when they don't have primordial. I'll give all of them a try but I think I want the option to field the primordial. Same goes for the doppelganger. Almost everyone seems to recommend it and I think I'll rather take care not too rely on ill omens than deny myself the other abilities it has.

Nephilim is a good suggestion, I'll look into them.

I am building a collection of Resurrectionists alongside the Neverborn so it's enough to be able to build one crew at the time, although I'd be happy to be able to build varied crews from each faction.

Thats alriight. I like being contrary.  After all people on the internet can be wrong too.  I can give an argument for almost any of the range as being a good purchase, because almost all of it is of use. So at the end of the day, get what you like. You have to use it. and what works for me may not work for you. 

I honestly think much of the primordial magic love occurred during rulebook schemes and people never bothered looking elsewhere even when he doesn't do what he was hired to do anymore. He isn't bad, and still worth considering in a crew, but I honestly believe if people were to start playing Lilith or Pandora now with a fresh mindset, there would be a lot fewer primordial magics sold because he isn't better then their totems. I can't comment on gorar, I haven't seen it enough or used it myself but I know a lot of people don't like it.

[esqulax]

9 hours ago, emiba said:

how good are the young?

Honestly, not very. 

 

Although they do allow you to run grow lists with Lillith. It seems to vary a ton how viable people find that though. 

[emiba]

25 minutes ago, esqulax said:

Honestly, not very. 

 

Although they do allow you to run grow lists with Lillith. It seems to vary a ton how viable people find that though. 

That's what I was afraid of. While fluffwise really cool, I think a grow list with Lilith is a bit too situational. You have to make sure not only that an enemy dies but that the right model does it. "For the brood" pretty much sums up what I don't like about grow lists. I could kill this model with 1AP, but I'm going to spend 3 instead (the last one being the AP that the newly grown young/mature loses from being summoned). I think I'd rather hire a mature to begin with. But to pay that amount for a box where I'll likely only use one model regularly? Maybe later, I think I'll pick something with more utility for now.

Thanks for the input!

[catbat07]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

I honestly think much of the primordial magic love occurred during rulebook schemes and people never bothered looking elsewhere even when he doesn't do what he was hired to do anymore. He isn't bad, and still worth considering in a crew, but I honestly believe if people were to start playing Lilith or Pandora now with a fresh mindset, there would be a lot fewer primordial magics sold because he isn't better then their totems. I can't comment on gorar, I haven't seen it enough or used it myself but I know a lot of people don't like it.

An interesting viewpoint, and now that I think about it, you're quite right. In most scenarios the Prim magic is a 2ss activation with RoM, while the cherub makes it easier to accomplish schemes, can move around enemy models, and can put hazardous terrain down. For only one stone more, I feel that the variety that gives you will be much more valuable in GG17.

[emiba]

Alright, you've convinced me to at least consider leaving out the Primordial Magic. The Cherub is good, and since the meta here is, well, doesn't really exist so it isn't all that cut throat, I could try to make do with the Gorar for now.

So, I think I'm set on Mysterious Effigy, Doppleganger and Johan (while not a Neverborn, should still be mentioned for context). What's being weighed against each other is Primordial and Widow Weaver against Changelings. Thoughts?

[-Loki-]

11 hours ago, Adran said:

Thats alriight. I like being contrary.  After all people on the internet can be wrong too.  I can give an argument for almost any of the range as being a good purchase, because almost all of it is of use. So at the end of the day, get what you like. You have to use it. and what works for me may not work for you. 

I honestly think much of the primordial magic love occurred during rulebook schemes and people never bothered looking elsewhere even when he doesn't do what he was hired to do anymore. He isn't bad, and still worth considering in a crew, but I honestly believe if people were to start playing Lilith or Pandora now with a fresh mindset, there would be a lot fewer primordial magics sold because he isn't better then their totems. I can't comment on gorar, I haven't seen it enough or used it myself but I know a lot of people don't like it.

The Gorar is an interesting piece, but it doesn't really do scheming or strategies. In fact it's detrimental in some like Reckoning. It's also hard to pull off, needing to be in the 6" center bubble when the minion dies. It can be a good surprise to the opponent bringing back a full health Rougarou or Autumn Knight in the middle of the board, but whether or not that alone is worth it along with the difficulty to pull it off is debatable.

At this point, I think the Primordial Magic really is the better choice for Titania.

I really like the Cherub. The ability to make (1) Interacts (0) Interacts, along with Companion, lets you set up something like Claim Jump with 2 Terror Tots really fast, and potentially still have an AP to get the Tot out of harms way.

I'm still not sold on the Poltergeist, but I'm willing to give it more chances to impress me.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, esqulax said:

Honestly, not very. 

 

Although they do allow you to run grow lists with Lillith. It seems to vary a ton how viable people find that though. 

I would say the young is in a similar place to the illuminated. If you are likely to be using Brilliance, then the illuminated will probably hit harder, and is naturally tankier, but the Young can gain extra AP, and get multiple attacks from its AP. (And sometimes the built in push on the trigger is a game winner)Illuminated are naturally more forgiving because of the armour and the multiple healing, but when you know what they are doing, you will probably get a similar job from both. 

But you do already have Illuminated, which will lower the value of the young. 

I can't get grow lists to work, but others do surprisingly often. 

[esqulax]

They do have some things going for them, but the mediocre defensive stats and 0 defensive abilities are just a deal breaker to me. But their biggest drawback is probably all the other great options we have at 6-7ss 

[emiba]

So, which do you think add more value to the collection; changelings or primordial and widow weaver?

[Angelshard]

I'd say changelings. They're fantastic models for only 4 stones and extremely flexible.

Weaver is really good too, but I find she's better with collodi, Pandora and zoraida than your masters

[Da Git]

For me, the only real model that's almost an auto-take is the Effigy.

I'm no expert at Neverborn, but Titania is my main master, I love Lilith's playstyle & I have Lynch for 10T...

Johan is definitely a staple in a lot of my lists, especially when play Ressurs or Nvb.  He's the best Condition removal we've got.  And he's a solid beater.

Graves is amazing for all three Masters you've got.

Then, all you really need is a solid beater, I really like Nekima & would love to hear some support for the Mature as the only reason I see for him is that he can take Ret's Eye.  I also like the Hooded rider Vs Ressurs (to hoover Corpses). 

I've never actually played the Doppelganger, I'm sure she's nice, but I never seem to have room for her.  I've never regretted not taking her and I think she's a bit of a crutch for people.

With those Masters, I really wouldn't worry about the Widow Weaver for now either, other than with Titania, there's no real Wp shenanigans.  She goes much better with the other Masters.  Although you can still build a solid Wp sub-crew with Widow, Teddy, Kade & Wisp for 29ss...

The Primordial Magic is also going to be mostly for Titania, I don't rate the Gorar at all (although my lists don't include many minions, so there's that too), so the Prim is great for a 2ss Activation & Rush.  For Lilith,it's definitely viable, Rush+2 & Wings of Darkness is great, but I really, like the Cherub too and feel Rush +1 & Wings is enough.  Its Interact shenanigans can win games and its bow is amazing too!

Changelings, whilst very good, fill the same role as Tots, so I don't think are really necessary at this point.

Rougarou can be great (esp with Tooth & the Emissary), but I think they're a bit superfluous, same with the Twins... ti just depends how much you're willing to spend.

So for me, the only things I think you really need are:

Effigy, Johan & Alt-nekima/Nephilim

The rest you can add for Flavour.