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July 2017 Errata


Lucidicide

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1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Most of the time, this errata makes no sense. You change my austringer where I can't spend (1) AP to focus to get an 18" range for (1) AP of a measly 1/3/4 attack, yet a Rotten Belle can Lure twice with a Ca 7 with an 18" range with no TN or Focus requirement? See, makes no sense. I'm not saying the Belles should be errata-ed, but just an example to show how these errata do not make sense nor fit the purported purpose Wyrd claims.


Belles were errataed. They used to have 8 Wd and 8 Ca. And Lure does have a TN.

1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said:

One last note: Why does the forum change the word "nurf" (with an "e" instead of "u") to the word "cuddle" when you post on the forum?

Wyrd thinks it's cute.

50 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

going from needing a 6 to an 8 pretty much guarantees you having to cheat a card

Huh? Are you sure?

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9 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Huh? Are you sure?

Yes, ignoring Jokers for simplicity, flipping a 6+ from a deck will occur 62% of the time, where as flipping an 8+ will only occur 46% of the time, thus making it more likely than not that you will have to cheat a card from your hand now, if your lucky enough to have the card in your hand. And if you do have the card in your hand, which would be a pretty high card at an 8+, you will lose that card for other things, such as summoning some spiders with Ramos, etc. 

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Just now, Hot4Perdita said:

Yes, ignoring Jokers for simplicity, flipping a 6+ from a deck will occur 62% of the time, where as flipping an 8+ will only occur 46% of the time, thus making it more likely than not that you will have to cheat a card from your hand now, if your lucky enough to have the card in your hand. And if you do have the card in your hand, which would be a pretty high card, you will lose that card for other things, such as summoning some spiders with Ramos, etc. 

Oh, naturally it makes it more likely. But you said that it "pretty much guarantees you having to cheat a card" which it doesn't seem to do according to those percentages. Or at least I don't think that a thing is guarateed to happen if it happens 54% of the time.

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15 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

If these models are so problematic, then they shouldn't have released them that way in the first place. 

No game with asymmetric forces will release perfectly balanced units that do not need errata. None. Some companies choose not to errata and just leave the imbalance for the next edition, some, like Wyrd, errata during the edition.  Playtesting is done by a handful of people, then fine tuned in a larger open playtest, but even in the open playtest you still only get a small percentage of the overall community, and those smaller groups have their own biases and playstyles which affect how they test units.

Once models hit the greater population with convenient plastic models and unit cards, more issues roll in. A good example is the rat engine. It was in the game for over a year (maybe 2 years?) before it became a problem. It became a problem because the brotherhood of the Rat and Hamelin boxes were released and people had easy access to Rats, Rat Catchers, Rat Kings and the Obedient Wretch. In testing, those models were more limited due to being in limited metal supply, so it likely didn't get looked at as much.

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15 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Un-fun? For the opponent of said model I guess, not the owner of the model. So you errata it and then it becomes "un-fun" for the owner of the model. 

To me it really seems like you can't have fun with a model unless it's too good and creates a negative play experience for your opponent and that's just selfish.

15 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Look, I think everyone is missing the point. The point is, when you purchase an item as a consumer, you expect it to work as advertised. When you spend your hard earned cash to buy something, and then a week later it does not work as advertised, you're going to be pretty ticked off. 

You were made aware that erratas were a thing. You mantained an unrealistic expectation that models would not be errata'd. It's really hard to sympathize with you when people who have played Malifaux and been part of  the Wyrd community for a long time explain why something is the way it is and you argue with them.

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21 minutes ago, necroon said:

To me it really seems like you can't have fun with a model unless it's too good and creates a negative play experience for your opponent and that's just selfish.

I don't see how trying to build a good crew and actually trying to win when playing a competitive game would be selfish. You're from New England, right? What do you think about this: I think Tom Brady is way too good, especially with under inflated footballs. They should errata Tom Brady to only allow one touchdown pass attempt per quarter, because otherwise it creates a negative play experience for my team. 

21 minutes ago, necroon said:

You were made aware that erratas were a thing. You mantained an unrealistic expectation that models would not be errata'd. It's really hard to sympathize with you when people who have played Malifaux and been part of  the Wyrd community for a long time explain why something is the way it is and you argue with them

Not arguing at all. Just voicing greviences and having a healthy debate. Trust me, I am not near the only one that gets irked by these changes. I'm hoping someone at Wyrd actually reads this stuff on here and maybe will consider their customers feedback so they don't end up losing a lot of their customers. 

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No one is happy about Cuddles. Cuddles also get complained about faster than buffs are applauded because Cuddles destabilise the game faster than buffs, because a Cuddle will instantly alter peoples current playstyle, while a buff takes time for people to test and figure out.

However, dragging 'false advertising' into it is a bit absurd.

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I have to say I didn't hear anyone in the polish tournament community complain. Even our local Arcanist players are pretty happy with the changes.

I hate the upgrade idea because it has too many game consequences, slots, bigger they are, Arcanist Assets.

I actually love the errata idea. It touches the most pressing issues without having to wait X years for a new edition. I also think its better for the health of the game.

 

Mech Rider summon is kept in checl with other summons. He needs a 4+ SS cost card to get it off.

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Oh, and imo 'doesn't work as advertised' is an interesting expression at least -you can build, paint and play all the models you like, and that's what wyrd is advertising for a model, not an exact set of rules - that's something they sell too, and they have all the right in the world to change their own product, especially as long as they provide all these changes for free!

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16 hours ago, trikk said:

Nobody gets 2 factionwide activations for 4 SS. Or 3 for 6 SS. For me 2-3 was enough of a reason because it allowed high numbers of very good models combined with a high activation number which isnt possible outside of Gremlins.

Yeah, but there are easy 3ss activations in most of the Factions (Guild Hounds, Arcanist Raptor, Rezzer Night Terrors and Neverborn Alps - Outcasts and 10T don't have any), and all of the above are more useful in general than Stuffed Piglets, right?

The fact is, 5 out of the 7 Factions can easily afford to bring in 2 cheap activations (at 3ss each), and i don't see the extra 1ss per Stuffy being any kind of deterrent to a Gremlin player determined to get activation control - they'll just take Bayou Gremlins instead, because now, there's no point taking Stuffies unless you also have a specific purpose for them. Which occasionally you will, sure. With Wong...

But yeah! I'm stoked to hear that you're considering giving Gremlins a go! Let us know how you find them after a few flings. I'll try to convince one of my regular opponents to use Gremlins for a change so i can get a first hand impression of Reckless etc from the other side. Not so many people play Gremlins round these parts... ;-)

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25 minutes ago, Tris said:

Oh, and imo 'doesn't work as advertised' is an interesting expression at least -you can build, paint and play all the models you like, and that's what wyrd is advertising for a model, not an exact set of rules - that's something they sell too, and they have all the right in the world to change their own product, especially as long as they provide all these changes for free!

Yep - we're in a new era now, where rules are released online for free, can be updated periodically to fix issues that have arisen, and can be (almost) instantly received by most of the player base. It's awesome!!

Aslong as companies realise how it changes the experience for the players, which Wyrd really seems to have. Two errata per year isn't excessive, and the main point is that we all know that they're coming, and when. 

Other companies do it in a haphazard way - as and when they spot a problem - and trickle-feed changes, and that sort of thing makes it difficult for everyone to keep up. 

Sooo - well done, Wyrd :D

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13 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Yeah, but there are easy 3ss activations in most of the Factions (Guild Hounds, Arcanist Raptor, Rezzer Night Terrors and Neverborn Alps - Outcasts and 10T don't have any), and all of the above are more useful in general than Stuffed Piglets, right?

The fact is, 5 out of the 7 Factions can easily afford to bring in 2 cheap activations (at 3ss each), and i don't see the extra 1ss per Stuffy being any kind of deterrent to a Gremlin player determined to get activation control - they'll just take Bayou Gremlins instead, because now, there's no point taking Stuffies unless you also have a specific purpose for them. Which occasionally you will, sure. With Wong...

But yeah! I'm stoked to hear that you're considering giving Gremlins a go! Let us know how you find them after a few flings. I'll try to convince one of my regular opponents to use Gremlins for a change so i can get a first hand impression of Reckless etc from the other side. Not so many people play Gremlins round these parts... ;-)

The fact some factions have "easy 3SS activations" means Gremlins should have "easy 2 SS activations" or what?

I get that they might be worse than Bayous at 3. But my main point wasn't that its not true but that the extra activations didn't require 6 SP to be abusive.

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2 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Not true. With the crew I was running, and the situation I was in,  I needed every card in my hand. Without going into detail on the game I played, which will take too long, going from needing a 6 to an 8 pretty much guarantees you having to cheat a card, which is a huge. Hell, they could have at least lowered the cost to hire from 12 to 10 to make up for what they took away from it. 

Again, the problem wasn't the model. If you NEED the cards in hand you're in a bad situation that you probably shouldn't even be in. And if you think that the Mechanical rider deserves to have it's cost lowered to 12 for the change it got, I really don't know what to say. It can solo complete the always scheme, meaning you can very easily get 3 VP off of just it. It can summon in some good models without a suit requirement after turn 2. Only now 46% of the deck works instead of the 61% that it was before.

NPE? Not familiar with that term. And the belles will lure you almost every time. How many Wp 7 models do you know of? Off the top of my head without looking, I can think of one that I own, and she's a master. A belle will beat you 8 out of 10 times on lure, which will pull you off strategies, pull you out of range of your buffs, and totally ruin your game. If anything needed an errata, it would be them. But I still don't believe they should errata them. Instead, I will find ways to keep them from luring in the first place, as hard as it is. Why should the people that invested time and money in their belle models be punished? I can think of many more things in the game that is way more powerful than needing a 6 to summon or focusing to get 18" on a measly 1/3/4 attack. (Think Seamus' hat trick to deny damage, even on a red joker, the Two Victoria's buffs and killing spree, etc.). 

NPE means Negative Play(er) Experience. Belles are still counter able. You can't counter something that ignores LoS outside of a few edge cases. And the 1/3/4 damage isn't the problem, it's that two of them can spend 4 AP to guarantee that 2/3 of your hand is discarded with the only way to avoid that to not have models in range of either of them, so now 2 models have just blocked off up to 80% of the board if you want to maintain one of your most valuable resources throughout the turn. And they're not being punished. The model is performing above what it should be for it's cost and so it was changed to either bring it inline with what it's cost is or its cost is changed. Seamus's hat trick is also a 1 time use thing unless you jump through some hoops for it, and can even be used by his opponent. The Victoria slingshot is very situational and can be disrupted in quite a lot of ways.

Again, they should compile all this and wait till a new edition. I think they tick off more people than you think. Part of the strategy of this game is trying to find things that work well or defend against the things you mentioned above. Also, the fun part is finding and building a crew you like to play and that works well. I play other games that I worked hard to get a good list for that I could win games with. It took time and money, but I was rewarded when I found out a good one that worked. And I don't have to worry about those companies coming along and changing it! It seems to me that when a good crew or combo is discovered in this game, they come along and destroy it. My guess is because they don't want a "good" crew that works, because then people will quit buying models after they have said crew. I don't think it has anything to do with "health of the game". I think when a crew gets too popular, it is a detriment to the sales of their other models, so they change it to cause people to go buy other stuff.

No, they really don't. Human psychology leads to people being more vocal if they feel negatively about something. There has been very little blowback against errata. Now, either that means that Malifaux players are all psychologically abnormal or it doesn't piss as many off as you would want to believe. As for other games not changing things, every minis game changes their stuff over time in one way or another, with errata being very common.

Now, I italicized that last bit because it's so laughably off base I don't even know where to begin. Lilith, who is widely regarded as one of the best masters in the game, as well as being one of, if not the most popular, hasn't been touched at all. Ever. Nor as any of her core stuff, and in fact her totem has been indirectly buffed which the changing of schemes due to a higher reliance on (1) and (2) AP interact actions. Then we have that very few models have actually been Cuddled, and none that completely invalidate a crew. So yeah, some things that you liked happened to have gotten Cuddled. Too bad, but the vast majority of things haven't been. In fact, we can even go by numbers.

First off, we have Arcanists. They've had 9 things errata'd. Of those 9 things, We have 2 typos, 2 buffs, 1 Cuddle with the intent to remind people she has other actions on her card, 2(1 of which got changed before the card was even available) Cuddles to fix an unintended interaction, 1 just straight up Cuddle, and 1 combination of Cuddle and sideways change to a style that actually works better in the current schemes.

Onto gremlins. We have 9 erratas again. 5 Cuddles, 1 wording change to make the rule less convoluted, and 3 changes that were from before my time and don't know what changed about them.

Guild: 8 Errata. 1 change to add a keyword for more consistency in the game. 3 buffs, 1 Cuddle to buff another model, 1 Cuddle to remove an unintended interaction+remove a big NPE, 1 "Cuddle" that doesn't even really change anything about the model and just makes it the same as it's sister ability, and 1 change to add a keyword that got left out mistakenly.

Neverborn: 11 errata. We have not 1, but 2 typos. 1 buff to allow an interaction that was commonly thought to already be legal, 3 Cuddles, and 1 wording change to make it actually be consistent with the rules and to be able to legally do anything other than exist, and 4 dual factions that have already been covered above.

Outcast: 12 errata. 4 buffs, 1 addition of keyword, 1 wording change, 2 Cuddles(one of which, was again, before the card was commercially available), and 1 change to remove a redundant ability, and 1 I'm unsure of.

Ressers: 4 errata. 2 Cuddles, 2 dual faction that were covered above.

Last, but not least. Ten Thunders at 8 Errata. 1 that was again before my time, and 7 dual faction things covered above.

For a grand total of... 48 things being errata'd. Out of a few hundred models, with a significant portion of those not even being Cuddles. So yeah, your assertion that they just Cuddle popular things to drive up sales of other stuff is just laughably off base. And this all isn't even getting into the fact that a lot of the Cuddles didn't even reduce the crews they affected to a much lower competitiveness, just opened up more counterplay (or any in some cases)

 

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2 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

If these models are so problematic, then they shouldn't have released them that way in the first place. 

Un-fun? For the opponent of said model I guess, not the owner of the model. So you errata it and then it becomes "un-fun" for the owner of the model. 

 

Look, I think everyone is missing the point. The point is, when you purchase an item as a consumer, you expect it to work as advertised. When you spend your hard earned cash to buy something, and then a week later it does not work as advertised, you're going to be pretty ticked off. 

You must truly be the unluckiest person in the world. 

You started playing guild, and then just after you were able to buy austringers, your friend pointed out that they can't go beyond 12" range. And that your plan to bury Papa loco in a death marshalls coffin doesn't permanently give perdita or Sonnia positives to their blast flips. 

So you switch to arcanists, and the first time you use the mech rider, you get told that you need an 8, rather than a 6 to get the summon off (and just to say that on turn 2, the odds go from 16.9% chance of success to 13.0%. turns 3+ you suffer a 14.8% extra chance to fail, so the chances you fail when you would have passed pre-errata on the flip will occur about once every 2 games. )

I said last time, and I'll say again. It is up to you and your opponents if you use the errata or not. If you only play in a small group, and they agree with you, then use which ever errata you like, form None, just using the stats printed in the books to using the most upto date card you have. 

we also warned you in the last thread that there was this errata date due, but there won't be any more until January. So hopefully, any combinations you do see over the next 6 months you get to use. And with your string on luck, I'd be interested to see what you have done well with in December, cause that way I'll have an idea what is about to change :)

 

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As a person who mostly plays Guild and has Arcanists as a second faction I don't think I ever complained about the changes.

I still use Austringers. I still use Loco. I got Sanderp and Wind Gamin yesterday and I believe I will still use Mech Rider as I find all those models viable (but sometimes more situational).

 

Malifaux is a complex system with a lot of models and a lack of general rules. PT every scenario is almost impossible and thats why sometimes things slip through the cracks. I understand erratas can be a pain logistic wise but I absolutely support Wyrd in the changes as it makes the game more fun and diverse.

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On 31/07/2017 at 7:10 PM, Aaron said:

All I can say is that this went through a lot of playtesting with a lot of suggestions proposed. Not everyone is going to be happy with any change that is made. I'm sorry if this change affects you negatively, but I truly believe it will cause more improvements in game quality than it will have negative impacts.

So you play tested stuffed piglets by putting them up a 50% and not taking them? They really aren't worth 3pts with no other changes.

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4 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Or here's another idea. If Wyrd insists on "nurfing" models, then they should offer a refund to those customers that have bought those models they decided to "nurf". That would be a good gesture to their customers.

Miniature games do balance changes; heck basically every game does. That's a given assumption with a game that's "alive". (Besides, you pay for models, not rules. You still own the exact same thing you purchased, is not like Aaron came up to your house and smashed your mechanical rider, who by the way is still fine power level wise.)

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It sounds like you're building one crew very specifically and trying to combo just the right models. Stop it. Malifaux isn't a game where you can do that, and instead asks players to adapt to changing schemes and strats. If there are any balance changes, they are most likely for the good of the game, and as far as mech rider is concerned, wyrd have done that perfectly. 

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@Hot4Perdita

I'm incredibly curious about the crew you were using, what your plan with it was and why you simply needed every card.

How does upping a single TN by 2 (for a -15% chance to top deck a success from a full deck, which is impossible...).  You still have a 46.3% chance of success, which is pretty good odds really for a free summons from turn 3 onwards.

Every time you make a duel you have a chance of failure...  Malifaux's motto is bad things happen...

Whilst I agree to being surprised to see the Mech Rider get Errata'd (there are other things I think are more powerful), I don't disagree with the change at all.  I would like to see Metal Gamin get a buff to Protection of Metal, but that's for another thread!)

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16 minutes ago, Bakunin said:

Maybe Hot4Perdita should parlay his new-found skills into a business opportunity. 

I'll pay $100 US plus the cost of the models if you buy McCabe and Yasunori and give it Recalled Training sometime around December :D

Maybe start Sandeep as well.

Let us take it easy.

 

I was his opponent in this game and I put him in a bad situation with his Ramos summoning engine turn 1 of the game.  The Mech Rider errata was a change he hadn't counted on and was like salt in the wound at that point in turn 2.

 

Please don't let his frustration be reason to heckle him; he is a really nice guy. 

 

**Note, I am in not intending to point the "no heckling" finger at you in particular.

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45 minutes ago, Da Git said:

@Hot4Perdita

I'm incredibly curious about the crew you were using, what your plan with it was and why you simply needed every card.

How does upping a single TN by 2 (for a -15% chance to top deck a success from a full deck, which is impossible...).  You still have a 46.3% chance of success, which is pretty good odds really for a free summons from turn 3 onwards.

Every time you make a duel you have a chance of failure...  Malifaux's motto is bad things happen...

Whilst I agree to being surprised to see the Mech Rider get Errata'd (there are other things I think are more powerful), I don't disagree with the change at all.  I would like to see Metal Gamin get a buff to Protection of Metal, but that's for another thread!)

Good morning. Ill try to answer your question, but I just woke up and need to get some coffee in me. Lol

In regards to needing cards, at the start of the game I went in thinking that as long as I had a 6 in my hand, the summon would go off. When the errata came up, I had to use my last high card (which was a 10 tome) instead of a 6 or 7 I had in my hand for the summon. That caused me to have to choose to use the 10 and get a gamin and lose out on a spider summon later or give up the gamin for the spiders. Had I known, I could have planned for it by keeping an 8 or better in my hand instead of that 6. That's where it kind of screwed me up. We were playing guard the stash, and the belles had lured all my models off the objectives, which is nearly impossible to stop. I was relying on a summon from both Ramos and Mech Rider to get models back on both objectives.

You asked about my crew and what my plan was. So I studied my books for a week, checked the darn errata on the website (which informed me of the metal gamin change. Scratching my head on that one.), and came up with an idea for a crew. I ordered the Ramos box, metal gamin, mech rider, extra box of spiders, two boxes of electrical creation, soulstone miners, and tool kit. Last nights strategy and schemes that I ended up using was Guard the Stash, Eliminate the Leadership, and Claim Jump. My crew that started was as follows:

- Ramos with Electric Summoning, Under Pressure, Sieze the day, 6 ss cache

- Brass Arachnid

- Joss with Bleeding Edge Tech

- Howard Langston with Imbued Energies

- Mechanical Rider 

- Mobile Tool Kit

Like is said before, I put in quite a bit of time to devise that list. It will work great with most strategies as schemes. The only change I might make would be if the schemes were different than what I played last night, I would have changed out Howard for a couple of soulstone miners.

Now to my plan. Everyone knows about the spider summon tactics, so I won't get into that in detail, but to start I was to activate the tool kit, buff Howard with + to damage flips. Then Joss to kill the tool kit for scrap. Then the spiders. Then Brass Arachnid to give Howard Reactivate. 

I am reluctant to reveal this awesome tactic I came up with, but it will get out sooner or later I guess. Once everyone starts doing this, I'm sure Wyrd will come along and errata it. I devised this for use in Eliminate the Leadership and A Quick Murder. Howard gets + to damage from tool kit, and gets Reactivate from Brass Arachnid. I wait till very last activation after opponent has hopefully moved his leader a little closer to activate Howard. On his first activation, he uses his ability Nimble to walk three times, then next activation uses nimble to walk once. At this point, this has moved him 20" and hopefully put him into engagement, which he can discard to gain Flurry and have a very good chance of killing the opponents leader. If he's still a little short, he can charge to get there for 2 attacks, or he can discard Imbued Energies for fast to get the distance. With Ml 7 and + Damage, it's got a decent shot of killing or at the very least badly hurting the leader so he can finish it off at the start of the next turn, which I would most likely get the first activation due to Sieze the Day. 

Here's why it's so card intensive. I need 5 cards in hand to completely guarantee it goes off as planned:

- An 8 to get two spiders on a summon 

- A 10 for Brass Arachnid to Reactivate Howard

- A 6 to pass the horror duel required to target the leader

- 2 cards to discard to be able to flurry and give the buff of + damage from the tool kit.

After killing the leader, my goal was to send some spiders off to one side for claim jump, then park some spiders and gamin on the stash objectives and go defensive to hold them. Joss is there to provide scrap, regenerate the wounds, and deal with nuisance opposition models. 

These strategies and tactics I devised worked fairly well, though not as ideal as I had hoped. The lure Action with the 18" range kind of hurt, but I still managed to score 8 points, even with the issue coming up with the mech rider. Had that not been sprung on me unexpectedly, I would have scored 9.

Now that I've revealed my tactic, watch for a new errata to stop Howard from killing models turn 1.

 

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7 hours ago, -Loki- said:

No one is happy about Cuddles. Cuddles also get complained about faster than buffs are applauded because Cuddles destabilise the game faster than buffs, because a Cuddle will instantly alter peoples current playstyle, while a buff takes time for people to test and figure out.

However, dragging 'false advertising' into it is a bit absurd.

Anyone try a 6 guardian + Lucius list yet :)  I promise, it is  A LOT of fun!

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