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Aaron

July 2017 Errata

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I would like the thank the Gremlin players for adding the salt for my popcorn ;) . Rules change, part of the game. I am sure all of the designers know what is coming better than we do so things might have unforeseen changes. In all reality we should all be more worried about the skill we play in the game and not what models are making that a heck of a lot easier for some than others. Game balance is a huge leading factor to the health of the community. We don't want new players quitting because they picked a faction that they like the look of the models yet have the worst masters.

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31 minutes ago, Freman said:

I think that the Mechanical Rider has a misspelling in her attack. It should be "Chain Spear" not "Chaln Spear".

Good point, I'd better read the actual c...

...Any computer wonks know why my browser's trying to download them as .xml files which they plainly are not? Nobody else is having problems so it's clearly a failure on my end, and possibly associated with my ad blockers and noscript.

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30 minutes ago, retnab said:

Mech Rider one was unexpected, but in theory I like both of the changes. The positioning of the Scheme Markers is more restricted in the early game but better end-game, and being able to do it multiple times per turn is pretty sweet for some schemes. I haven't played it in a while now, and this might convince me to give it another shot. The AV cuddle makes sense seeing as how strong a summon it was, though I hope this means Wyrd will be willing to give us more 4ss Constructs now! :D 

It does potentially open up more design space. I also appreciate that the modification to the Rider's trigger does allow me to still drop up to 2 scheme markers, but in a manner that might actually be more useful in the long run--given that marker schemes tend to have spacing requirements and I've been playing more Dig Their Graves lately. I can spread the markers out to better support schemes, including having an insurance grave-marking scheme marker, trap marker, or just plain old scheme marker for later exploitation.

I'm in a similar boat: I haven't really bothered with Raptors for Leave Your Mark or Covert Breakthrough because I knew it was over the top and needed to change.

@Gnomezilla: which browser? Chrome is acting a little odd when I pull it, but it does download, and Firefox gets a permanent redirect on the initial response, followed up by a nicely encrypted bytestream that becomes the PDF. I'm loathe to start up IE11 on this machine.

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Gremlins are not a particularly powerful faction. While they can seem that way, they can be played around fairly easily. However, in GG17, they are incredibly strong. Take the average schemes pool: Claim Jump, Dig their graves/leave your mark + some other stuff. In any given game, there will be two schemes (on average) that benefit heavily off activation control. Gremlins, being a faction with plentiful activation control were able to score 8-10VP very easily, and have no problems with any of the strategies. This is exactly the same reason why Tara and Sandeep are broken right now. The meta has devolved into summoning and cheap activations. With the right scheme pool, it can be very difficult to win against one of these lists. 

Gremlins will be perfectly balanced in GG18 (hopefully). Also, Gremlins aren't the biggest problem. Hamelin, Collodi, Tara and Sandeep all desperately need fixing, mainly because they do gremlins better. Sort of.

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9 hours ago, wizuriel said:

You can't really claim 

When the discussion was behind  closed doors resulting in most people not being able to take part in the discussion :p.

I don't argue that Stuffed pigs needed a change, my problem with the change is it makes the model all but obsolete which imo is a bad change. Rats were changed from going from a must have in nearly all outcast lists to still being very needed and useful in a themed Hamelin list. That was a good change.

 

Changing stuffed pigs to 3SS without any other changes is going result in Stuffed pigs no longer being hired and the pigapult no longer being considered outside of specific Somer and Ulix lists. That imo is a bad change. 

You fix the issue of the out activation in Gremlins, and in the result condense the viable Gremlin models to an even smaller pooler when people are also complaining they only ever see the same 7-10 models when playing against Gremlins.

Good post.

I agree, and think the Stuffed Piglet rise to 3ss is going to be bad for business. And isn't that a pretty pertinent aspect for Wyrd to consider?

I'd imagine that from now on, any new player asking whether they should buy the Creative Taxidermy box will receive a lot of "Meh" reactions, whereas before they probably would've been encouraged to do so (for whatever reasons...)

I had heard that the proposed change to Stuffies was going to be along the lines of staying at 2ss, remaining Rare 6, but to hire them you would need to bring 1 Taxidermist per 3 Stuffies. This idea is much better. Because:

- it doesn't devalue the Stuffed Piglets. Compared to Bayou Gremlins (the other "suicide model"), they're not worth 3ss.

- to take 3 of them, instead of paying an extra 3ss tax for nothing, you'd have to spend 7ss but still get a good, usable model. That'd be an extra 4ss over this new fix, but you actually get something for it. 

- it keeps the boxed set themed together on the field, and increases the usefulness of Taxidermists.

- it doesn't devalue the Pigapult as much. Makes it difficult to fit in, but again - that Taxidermist can do things for you, whereas a 3ss tax cannot.

But whatever. I'm just very unlikely to ever buy the Creative Taxidermy box now, because: who needs to buy 18ss of Stuffed Piglets?

Edited by Bazlord_Prime
Incompetent mathematics :-(
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In the long run I think a more elegant solution to stuffed piglets and generally spamming low cost models would be a change to Insignificant, something like 'After this model activates your opponent can chose to skip an activation'.

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My $2:

The biggest upset for me is they tried to look at the rules and created "balanced" rulings on 3 out of 4 errata.

The stuffed pig comes across as "they might be to strong, lets up the SS cost by 1" .....

This is 50% increase, how would you like if we bumped everyone favorite doppleganger from 7ss to 10ss?

 

In simpler terms, its like reducing sillurid cost from 7ss to 6ss and not changing anything about their rules, suddenly they are just too good.

I agree with previous posted that the pigs were in the 2.5 SS gray area, too good at 2 and now too poopy for 3 (because bayou gremlins)

 

Also for a "horde" army that gremlins should be, our minions are miffy because of our 7ss enforcer/henchmen are rare 1 over performers ( in some cases)

 

I have played 6x stuffed list in every gremlin lists and there are counters and disadvantages to doing this (outside of clear advantages)

I wish they actually did some "creative cuddling"

 

Stuffed should have always Had to explode and their rare value should be based on taxidermists (+3 rare value)and pigapult (+6 rare value) that you would hired

This way you would most often hire 1 taxidermist and 3 pigs as a side list ( 13ss for 4 activation ~ compared to 12ss for 4 bayous)

Or if you wanted to run a fluffy list of 2 taxidermists and 6 stuffed (26 stones)

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

@Gnomezilla: which browser? Chrome is acting a little odd when I pull it, but it does download, and Firefox gets a permanent redirect on the initial response, followed up by a nicely encrypted bytestream that becomes the PDF. I'm loathe to start up IE11 on this machine.

Firefox browser but now I'm certain that it's noscript add-on kicking up the protest. Why it thinks Firefox wants to request data from chrome://browser/content/browser.xul for any reason is the mystery.

9 minutes ago, Colonel Sanders said:

In the long run I think a more elegant solution to stuffed piglets and generally spamming low cost models would be a change to Insignificant, something like 'After this model activates your opponent can chose to skip an activation'.

Too clunky a rule for use in a game and it reintroduces the NPE of non-alternating activations. It's like free accomplice for you, only it also forces your opponent to submit to giving you that accomplice.

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On 01/08/2017 at 9:20 AM, Auswin said:

I liked to be able to use the Pigapult when I felt like being semi-compeditive but still have a bit of a laugh, because it was never the strongest shooting model -- but that's made more difficult with 3 SS pigs. 

I feel the same. It's a good, fun piece. Maybe to re-balance it now, it shouldn't suffer the effects of "Concussion" when it sacrifices a Stuffed Piglet. After all, the Piglet isn't actually exploding in terms of Bacon Bomb...

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I find it it somewhat interesting that there's only Gremlin players complaining, when Malifaux Raptors probably got hit harder than Stuffed Piglets. You will still be seeing Stuffeds as summons, but you won't really be seeing Raptors except when opposing Marcus uses Alpha on Myranda.

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47 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Good post.

I agree, and think the Stuffed Piglet rise to 3ss is going to be bad for business. And isn't that a pretty pertinent aspect for Wyrd to consider?

I'd imagine that from now on, any new player asking whether they should buy the Creative Taxidermy box will receive a lot of "Meh" reactions, whereas before they probably would've been encouraged to do so (for whatever reasons...)

I had heard that the proposed change to Stuffies was going to be along the lines of staying at 2ss, remaining Rare 6, but to hire them you would need to bring 1 Taxidermist per 3 Stuffies. This idea is much better. Because:

- it doesn't devalue the Stuffed Piglets. Compared to Bayou Gremlins (the other "suicide model"), they're not worth 3ss.

- to take 3 of them, instead of paying an extra 6ss tax for nothing, you'd have to spend 7ss but still get a good, usable model. 

- it keeps the boxed set themed together on the field, and increases the usefulness of Taxidermists.

- it doesn't devalue the Pigapult as much. Makes it difficult to fit in, but again - that Taxidermist can do things for you, whereas a 6ss tax cannot.

But whatever. I'm just very unlikely to ever buy the Creative Taxidermy box now, because: who needs to buy 18ss of Stuffed Piglets?

The proposed change IMHO does not solve the problem of cheap  activations in any way. It just makes you take one 7SS model and swap it for the Taxidermist. The activation count remains the same.

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6 hours ago, Aaron said:

Practiced Production now prevents you from placing Scheme Markers near non-Peon, non-Insignificant friendly models.

Is this sentence not saying the opposite of what was intended?

It says the upgrade prevents you from placing scheme markers near non-peons and non-insignificant friendly models. Thus, you can only place markers near peons and insignificant models

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2 hours ago, catbat07 said:

Gremlins are not a particularly powerful faction. While they can seem that way, they can be played around fairly easily. However, in GG17, they are incredibly strong. Take the average schemes pool: Claim Jump, Dig their graves/leave your mark + some other stuff. In any given game, there will be two schemes (on average) that benefit heavily off activation control. Gremlins, being a faction with plentiful activation control were able to score 8-10VP very easily, and have no problems with any of the strategies. This is exactly the same reason why Tara and Sandeep are broken right now. The meta has devolved into summoning and cheap activations. With the right scheme pool, it can be very difficult to win against one of these lists. 

Gremlins will be perfectly balanced in GG18 (hopefully). Also, Gremlins aren't the biggest problem. Hamelin, Collodi, Tara and Sandeep all desperately need fixing, mainly because they do gremlins better. Sort of.

 

So here's where it might be necessary to be pedantic a bit and make sure that "powerful" is well-defined.

For some, the idea of powerful is that a powerful thing can kill/destroy almost anything in its path. There are game systems where that is certainly the case, and indeed, there are even some strat/scheme combinations (scenarios) in Malifaux where that is the case as well. Some masters are the Red Joker at this, others the Black Joker. Fortunately, not all scenarios are won by the person who brings the biggest gun and/or fastest blades, so this view on powerful does not actually apply--because it does not reliably win games.

For others, myself included on this one, powerful has to do with the ability to achieve victory. What makes Ramos, Ulix, Somer, and Hamelin powerful at attrition-based scenarios is their ability to crank out Activations in an effectively unlimited fashion. What makes Sandeep powerful in general is that he has no weak scenarios and can increase his activations and share effort, giving him considerable flexibility. Being incredibly strong in a scenario set (GG17) fits this view on what powerful is. Being able to set up an undeniable combination to score points for the scenario is extremely powerful.
Balance between factions is very close, and as long as we maintain a reasonably close balance between factions no faction should be particularly powerful when compared to the others. Some factions will be stronger at some kinds of play, some masters will be stronger into some scenarios. That is by design.

 

1 hour ago, Soil said:

Is this sentence not saying the opposite of what was intended?

It says the upgrade prevents you from placing scheme markers near non-peons and non-insignificant friendly models. Thus, you can only place markers near peons and insignificant models

That looks like a typo on Aaron's part. The card itself has the correct wording for the stated intent of only being able to use significant non-peons as targets. Added bonus for people playing against Arcanists: turn our stuff into peons and you shut off Practice Production.

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Why is it that folks seem to think that a bump in SS was the only thing discussed behind closed doors. Anyone who has been involved in Wyrd play testing knows that all kinds of ideas get discussed  before a decision is made. I got to be honest that it rubs me the wrong way when the Malifaux game designers are accused of lazy development, given the complexities designed into the game already.

In this case the ultimate issue with the Stuffed Piglets wasn't their wound count, or their selective self-detonation, or anything else about how the models performed. It was specifically that 2SS is too cheap for a non-totem activation (non-Totem because by and large totems are Rare 1, and the ones that aren't are integral to the associated master's intended play style), complicated with the fact that the designer didn't want to make major changes to the actions and abilities on the card. How do you specifically address the design direction of "1 activation > 2SS"?

All I see is either giving them a Rare limit, which would have to be like Rare 3 to avoid the spamming 2SS activations issue, or bump their SS cost.

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11 minutes ago, KrazyIvan said:

Why is it that folks seem to think that a bump in SS was the only thing discussed behind closed doors. Anyone who has been involved in Wyrd play testing knows that all kinds of ideas get discussed  before a decision is made. I got to be honest that it rubs me the wrong way when the Malifaux game designers are accused of lazy development, given the complexities designed into the game already.

In this case the ultimate issue with the Stuffed Piglets wasn't their wound count, or their selective self-detonation, or anything else about how the models performed. It was specifically that 2SS is too cheap for a non-totem activation (non-Totem because by and large totems are Rare 1, and the ones that aren't are integral to the associated master's intended play style), complicated with the fact that the designer didn't want to make major changes to the actions and abilities on the card. How do you specifically address the design direction of "1 activation > 2SS"?

All I see is either giving them a Rare limit, which would have to be like Rare 3 to avoid the spamming 2SS activations issue, or bump their SS cost.

Exactly this. So far I've only participated in open testing, and from the changes that took place over that it looks like the design team starts with as many things as they can and shake things down to a workable solution. Handling errata and closed testing in the same way is what I would expect--because it lets all of your testing go in parallel and produce results that can be tested and handled in parallel. The reason for closed doors can be many things and it would not surprise me in the least that the testing behind closed doors is related to game design and new content--stuff that Wyrd would like to be in control of.

As for the solutions...  I think the reference to non-Totem is key here, because masters and totems are bound to each other--I'm not bringing the Emberling without Mei Feng (important, because cheap, significant activation), I'm not bringing a wing of Doves without Colette (important, because cheap activations that can sac themselves to be a force multiplier)--and are thus a little easier to account for when designing other models. Mah having a 2ss activation or three is quite different than Wong or Zipp. Rare limit would hamper summoning them (sorry, Taxidermist) and merely cut down on the number of 2ss activations every Gremlin master would have, without addressing the actual problem area as it applies to a handful of masters and model combinations.

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5 hours ago, Auswin said:

As someone who owns every faction (except Arcanists and Outcasts) and love my Malifaux children equally (except Ressers, you know you're my first love boo), the change to Stuffed Pigs is a mixed bag. 

I liked to be able to use the Pigapult when I felt like being semi-compeditive but still have a bit of a laugh, because it was never the strongest shooting model -- but that's made more difficult with 3 SS pigs. That said, the implications for Wong are absolutely warranted and it's an excellent thing for the health of the game as it pertains to him being a master.

Everyone's experience is different, but especially after the release of Swine Cursed it was very difficult to justify being able to run the Gremlin All-Stars (Trixie and Burt), McTavish AND Swine Cursed and still have a way to out-activate most of my opponents, or drop one of those models and get 13 activations with ease. They'd ask post-game how they should adapt to deal with that and I didn't have an answer, to me that says a lot.

Ultimately I think it will lead to more creative list building and less excuses for people to say Gremlins are OP. That is great for the faction. 

Less excuses for people to say Gremlins are OP is probably what is most needed ;)

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IMHO Rare 3 (or even 4) would have solved the problem of hiring too many of them in a much better way - and I've never seen more than 4 Stuffies summoned in the same game, not before exploding at least. How is bumping them to 3SS a better solution? It's like if you have a broken nail, and you decide to solve the problem by chopping off the whole hand. I may be wrong, but I doubt they'll get any table time at all. Time will tell ;)

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I like the changes, even as again some of my plans for certain models crumble again (so far Colette, Lenny, rotten belles, PP, stuffed piglets and counting). I still had not bought the taxidermists box, nor the pigapult (everyone at my community is scared about it even as it has yet to be sold). Right now, I do not see much use on hiring the stuffed dudes if not for a particular reason, but if you are getting them, you have a plan for them, and that seems to me that it is a well ballanced model. Maybe we do not see them out of Wong or pigapults... so be it! I do not see many models out of certain masters and I am not complaining! Sebastian feels awquard without McMourning (despite the idea of using him with nico). The next wave is bringing the flying piglets, who are stuffed companions on the taxidermy summoning so it is good to see them having both particular roles.

I think Gremlins are an awesome faction, maybe not the most competitive, because of their staying power, but the versatility of the models is huge. I still think Gremlins have a good activation advantage in the form of bayou gremlins (I would struggle to pay 2 for an insignificant pig if I could get a significant gremlin by 3 before). Remember the faction tends to have small costs... No riders, 12ss henchmen, etc. Our elites are 7ss enforcers, maybe 8 for henchies (or dirty cheater), so activation advantage is still on our side (untill bullets start to fly).

Not horrified by the changes, will miss the practiced production on a collette totem but hey! the game is evolving!

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6 hours ago, Rosskov said:

In my opinion the stuffed piglets are a 2.5 stone model. They have different roles from a bayou gremlin but can't really compete with them at 3 stones. 

I've always wondered a bit if replacing say stones with scrip and doubling all the costs (and letting you buy soulstones for your pool with 2 scrip then) would solve some of the issues by allowing for more granularity in costs.

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4 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I find it it somewhat interesting that there's only Gremlin players complaining, when Malifaux Raptors probably got hit harder than Stuffed Piglets. You will still be seeing Stuffeds as summons, but you won't really be seeing Raptors except when opposing Marcus uses Alpha on Myranda.

Agree that it is interesting that as an Arcanist I have seen a number of models and a upgrade get cuddled and I'm honestly neither surprised nor particularly distressed.  The cuddles went to models that I had a pretty good feeling needed it because I was considering them to damn often in the style of every list and every opponent and taking them out of proportion to other models in faction.  Always a bad sign.

Disagree that Raptors have become Marcus only niche take.

Still a large base, surprisingly tough to kill (high Df), super fast, cheap model.  They have always been useful to disrupt and frustrate my opponent very economically for a turn (or two if I was lucky) draining AP and cards to kill the feathered buggers.  They still do this.

What they don't do is scheme themselves with the Practiced Production interaction.  This is fine, for their cost this was unreasonable.

I'll still take them to mess up opponents, interfere with their plans (and Interfere) and generally disrupt and aggravate.  Just need a different model to score my points.  Will I see them less often in my lists.... Yes but given how often they appeared that is OK.  Will I still use them in lists.... Yes.

Generally the exact same statement goes for Practiced Production, still great but now you need to consider the list you take it with and you need to work with the models a little more to produce from it.  

Also true for Mech Rider, which honestly should have been cuddled before instead of the poor little Metal Gamin getting heavily hugged by proxy.  This hug also makes the Mech Rider a more finesse piece and brings it in line with the original riders (although the TT rider is simply a beast) in terms of power I think.

As for the Stuffed Piglet cuddle, well.... understand the angst I guess, can't now take a 2SS horde but instead a 3SS mini horde.  The core question is summed up here

3 hours ago, KrazyIvan said:

Why is it that folks seem to think that a bump in SS was the only thing discussed behind closed doors. Anyone who has been involved in Wyrd play testing knows that all kinds of ideas get discussed  before a decision is made. I got to be honest that it rubs me the wrong way when the Malifaux game designers are accused of lazy development, given the complexities designed into the game already.

In this case the ultimate issue with the Stuffed Piglets wasn't their wound count, or their selective self-detonation, or anything else about how the models performed. It was specifically that 2SS is too cheap for a non-totem activation (non-Totem because by and large totems are Rare 1, and the ones that aren't are integral to the associated master's intended play style), complicated with the fact that the designer didn't want to make major changes to the actions and abilities on the card. How do you specifically address the design direction of "1 activation > 2SS"?

All I see is either giving them a Rare limit, which would have to be like Rare 3 to avoid the spamming 2SS activations issue, or bump their SS cost.

Reducing the Rare limit only improves it marginally, Rare 4 means you get 4 activation's for 8SS which yeah is better than 6 for 12 but still powerful and meanwhile it potentially inhibits summoning and such (and the same holds for Rare 3, while Rare 1 or 2 would be unworkable).

Arguments that this cuddle makes Gremlins terrible are really empty (1) because I think Gremlins are still competitive and (2) even if I'm wrong that is a faction wide issue and the use a a single OP model in order to auto-take and correct a wider critical deficiency is abject failure.  If suddenly Gremlins are getting tabled at every tournament and in every game then hopefully Wyrd notices the problem and addresses improving the problem with something other than a horde of pig bombs.

  • Now another argument exists that now Stuffed Piglets do not get taken because they no longer have a valid place in the lists compared to other in-faction models of the same cost/purpose...
  • So here one asks how does the new 3SS Stuffed Piglet compare to other fast and cheap Gremlin models, I think notably Bayou Gremlins and the non-detonation Piglet variety.  Here I'm uncertain, time and study and game play will tell.  But yeah if you NEVER (or really rarely) see Stuffed Piglets outside Gremlin Taxidermy summons and experimental fun games then this is a problem which Wyrd should and hopefully will visit and perhaps slightly buff the Bacon Bombers.

However I think Wyrd has a addressed the core problem of easy to field and quite dangerous value 2SS activation spam lists with 4-6 Stuffed Piglets for less than the cost of a single elite beater.  This is the simplest approach to the identified problem of OP activation economy.  If it has knock on power effects then time will tell and Wyrd can review the results and take further action as necessary (speaking from experience as the Metal Gamin and then Mech Rider cuddles demonstrate).

I personally like the idea of the simplest solutions to the most egregious problems and perhaps fine tuning that simple solution after some in the wilds observation.  

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Maybe they could've upped the cost to 3 and then adjusted something to make them actually competitive compared to the Bayou Gremlins at the same cost bracket?

Somer was already the best Gremlin Master and now he is even more so because he doesn't care one whit about the cost of the Stuffed Piglets. But I guess that seeing even more Somer in tournaments is good for the health of the game :P 

So is that three Factions now that have one Master clearly above the rest? Sandeep, Nellie, and now Gremlins? Arguably Collodi and Hamelin as well, I guess.

Back in the Malifaux 2E beta I said several times that activation control is too good and that the game should have a passing mechanic or something to alleviate it. Now I guess I get to say "told you so" but I really don't get much satisfaction from it, sadly.

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9 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Maybe they could've upped the cost to 3 and then adjusted something to make them actually competitive compared to the Bayou Gremlins at the same cost bracket?

Somer was already the best Gremlin Master and now he is even more so because he doesn't care one whit about the cost of the Stuffed Piglets. But I guess that seeing even more Somer in tournaments is good for the health of the game :P 

So is that three Factions now that have one Master clearly above the rest? Sandeep, Nellie, and now Gremlins? Arguably Collodi and Hamelin as well, I guess.

Back in the Malifaux 2E beta I said several times that activation control is too good and that the game should have a passing mechanic or something to alleviate it. Now I guess I get to say "told you so" but I really don't get much satisfaction from it, sadly.

This is very true. I certainly agree that stuffed were too good, but completely eliminating a model from the game (essentially) doesn't create a healthy environment. 

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Personally i like malifaux so much, that i have almost all miniatures..

I don't know if these Errata were necessary, (honesly the one certainly right was "rat engine" on non-nihilis. masters)

In my area whenever there was change for guild/outcast i saw some players stop playing with their factions, and switch to other factions.. now i fear that by doing so, slowly, all factions will be depowered (why forum change my word??)

 

i've a little experience in Magic (i know is another game) but in one format, depowereds and bans have completely changed (or should i say) lowered game competitiveness, becoming so a game where think lesser.

(i hope you will understand, what i'm trying to say) 

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3 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

IMHO Rare 3 (or even 4) would have solved the problem of hiring too many of them in a much better way - and I've never seen more than 4 Stuffies summoned in the same game, not before exploding at least. How is bumping them to 3SS a better solution? It's like if you have a broken nail, and you decide to solve the problem by chopping off the whole hand. I may be wrong, but I doubt they'll get any table time at all. Time will tell ;)

Rare 4 doesn't change anything except give a lot of people 2 useless models because IMHO the issue starts with 2-3 of them as you are already up 1-2 activations compared to other factions.

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19 minutes ago, trikk said:

Rare 4 doesn't change anything except give a lot of people 2 useless models because IMHO the issue starts with 2-3 of them as you are already up 1-2 activations compared to other factions.

"2 useless models" - really? How many useless models did a lot of people now get?

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