Tokapondora Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 to 3 SS makes them decent choices if you have an actual plan and purpose in mind for them, rather than being 3-4 cheap activations for 6-8 SS. In a game where activations are so hugely important, allowing freely hireable 2 SS is, I feel, a mistake. You could cuddle them to 3's across their statline and I'd gladly take them for 2 SS because it allows me to offset other huge beaters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmantra Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, melkore said: Three buried Wind Gamin can push something 15". So can Zoraida and her Wisps, every turn. No one is up in arms about that. Wind Gamin have a bad leap compared to Gupps for the same cost and meh combat skills. Even with cyclone, ml 4 isn't making it through much. 4ss and cannot be summoned by Mech Rider seemed pretty fair. The reason it was errataed wasn't really to do with the power of the push. It was to do with the fact that since they were not killed, they wouldn't drop heads for Headhunter or give away points for Reckoning, Hunting Party etc, so they were a way of getting cheap spammable scheme runners that were immune to schemes designed to make cheap spammable scheme runners riskier. It does tweak their power level down a bit because you can't save them for the clutch push, but not by very much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 As for the cuddles: Wind Gamin were ridicolous not because the 5" push but because they were immune to most VP aspects to the game. The issue with the push was that it insanely increased threat ranges without needing any activations in between. The fact Stuffed Piglets will be used in Pigapult lists or lists where you can deny points with them (Headhunter, CtB) means they will be used accordingly. Changing multiple stats on them would mean the activation limit wouldn`t change but the quality would. But if you can just walk with them out of sight they Cg and Wds don`t really matter. I support this errata 100%. Good Job! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, melkore said: As an Arcanist player in an arcanist heavy meta, Wind Gamin were never really an issue and Mech Rider was rarely seen. Three buried Wind Gamin can push something 15". So can Zoraida and her Wisps, every turn. No one is up in arms about that. Wind Gamin have a bad leap compared to Gupps for the same cost and meh combat skills. Even with cyclone, ml 4 isn't making it through much. 4ss and cannot be summoned by Mech Rider seemed pretty fair. Their only problem was that they were unkillable making them broken in certain strats and schemes. 7 minutes ago, melkore said: Mech will continue to be too expensive to bring in many lists even more so now with the increase in resources to make her go. The changes to Mech seem pretty minimal to me. +2 to the Push'n'Summon TN (which was silly low) and the Scheme Marker generation works a bit differently but isn't all that much weaker, really. I do agree with you that I don't understand how the Mech Rider adjustment was considered an urgent priority. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, melkore said: As an Arcanist player in an arcanist heavy meta, Wind Gamin were never really an issue and Mech Rider was rarely seen. Three buried Wind Gamin can push something 15". So can Zoraida and her Wisps, every turn. I don't think the push itself was ever a problem, but that they don't count for any schemes that says killed. I think it was a good change because of this. I've never been very impressed with the riders so don't really understand why the Mech Rider needs constant tinkering, but don't really care either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Lots of good changes. 2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: I do agree with you that I don't understand how the Mech Rider adjustment was considered an urgent priority. Compared to the other 3, I agree. I think the remaining peak priority issues really require GG changes. Everything else can wait for the new book as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melkore Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: Their only problem was that they were unkillable making them broken in certain strats and schemes. How is this any different from Nihilism models not being able to be targets in certain strats and schemes? Many models bury on death in other factions but aren't being targeted either. It just strikes me as a little odd that Arcanists were the emergency fix case when so many other models need cuddles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 15 minutes ago, Tokapondora said: 2 to 3 SS makes them decent choices if you have an actual plan and purpose in mind for them, rather than being 3-4 cheap activations for 6-8 SS. In a game where activations are so hugely important, allowing freely hireable 2 SS is, I feel, a mistake. You could cuddle them to 3's across their statline and I'd gladly take them for 2 SS because it allows me to offset other huge beaters. This is what I mean though. If people want an activation control, exploding pig, I'd prefer a 2SS pig with Df 2 than a 3SS pig. I can see why people complain about activation control, but then, other masters can play that way too (Hamelin, Collodi etc.) I feel raising cost from 2 to 3 is the wrong answer to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, melkore said: How is this any different from Nihilism models not being able to be targets in certain strats and schemes? I do think that it is a problem and Nihilism shouldn't work on Scheme Conditions. Just now, melkore said: Many models bury on death in other factions but aren't being targeted either. None of those are cheap Schemers. See Dogmantra's succinct post above. Just now, melkore said: It just strikes me as a little odd that Arcanists were the emergency fix case when so many other models need cuddles. Well, at least your models are still playable. Gremlins lose a key model every errata, it seems (Imagine if the Mech Rider adjustment had been to make her cost 18SS...) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lucidicide Posted July 31, 2017 Author Popular Post Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 The Scheme Condition thing is being addressed in GG18, which will be available after GenCon for people who would prefer to use it. 13 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: This is what I mean though. If people want an activation control, exploding pig, I'd prefer a 2SS pig with Df 2 than a 3SS pig. I can see why people complain about activation control, but then, other masters can play that way too (Hamelin, Collodi etc.) I feel raising cost from 2 to 3 is the wrong answer to this. I think you'll find the game is quickly discovering the base value of an activation. Specifically, we're finding that activations at less than 2 SS only come as a Master specific ability these days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said: I do think that it is a problem and Nihilism shouldn't work on Scheme Conditions. None of those are cheap Schemers. See Dogmantra's succinct post above. Well, at least your models are still playable. Gremlins lose a key model every errata, it seems (Imagine if the Mech Rider adjustment had been to make her cost 18SS...) Surely after a few more of these erratas all Gremlins will be able to hire is Bayou Gremlins... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, edopersichetti said: This is what I mean though. If people want an activation control, exploding pig, I'd prefer a 2SS pig with Df 2 than a 3SS pig. I can see why people complain about activation control, but then, other masters can play that way too (Hamelin, Collodi etc.) I feel raising cost from 2 to 3 is the wrong answer to this. Hamelin and Collodi are specific masters who are balanced around having access to these cheap activations. Giving them to an entire faction is giving an entire faction a huge boost. I wouldn't mind if they got buffed to shit after this, it's still preferable over unaffiliated 2 SS units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Just now, LunarSol said: I think you'll find the game is quickly discovering the base value of an activation. Specifically, we're finding that activations at less than 2 SS only come as a Master specific ability these days. I know very well the value of activation control - it is one of the most powerful tactics to the game. But that's it, it's a tactic: it's not the only way to win the game. If you hire 4 Stuffed Piglets to get activation control, you're sinking 8SS to achieve that, and not much more, especially since they do tend to blow up fairly quickly... As a seasoned Gremlins player I can tell you that this strategy is no longer viable, and I see not many more reasons to hire Stuffed Piglets, when for the same cost you can hire a Bayou Gremlin - making Pigapult also somewhat obsolete. So, they are essentially a summons-only model now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tokapondora said: Hamelin and Collodi are specific masters who are balanced around having access to these cheap activations. Giving them to an entire faction is giving an entire faction a huge boost. I wouldn't mind if they got buffed to shit after this, it's still preferable over unaffiliated 2 SS units. Sure, in fact Gremlins is this scary faction that wins all tournaments hands-down... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tokapondora said: Hamelin and Collodi are specific masters who are balanced around having access to these cheap activations. Giving them to an entire faction is giving an entire faction a huge boost. I wouldn't mind if they got buffed to shit after this, it's still preferable over unaffiliated 2 SS units. I think that Hamelin and Collodi sit comfortably at tier one of Masters in the game while over half of the Gremlin Masters aren't there so I'm not sure whether this balancing has succeeded. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFOmega Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 28 minutes ago, melkore said: As an Arcanist player in an arcanist heavy meta, Wind Gamin were never really an issue and Mech Rider was rarely seen. The issue with Wind Gamin was that them dying didn't count for most strats/schemes. Granted, that's a bit at odds with other models being immune to conditions not getting changed, but I suppose you could argue that's more of a game health issue than a balance issue, which is supposed to be the Jan errata not the July, but that's a bit of a stretch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, edopersichetti said: This is what I mean though. If people want an activation control, exploding pig, I'd prefer a 2SS pig with Df 2 than a 3SS pig. I can see why people complain about activation control, but then, other masters can play that way too (Hamelin, Collodi etc.) I feel raising cost from 2 to 3 is the wrong answer to this. Collodi has 3SS models. Just like every gremlin master out there. Hamelin IMHO is an issue because his summons cost very little. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 In regards to GG18 being available soon, will it be a finalized version or a beta version of the new schemes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said: I think that Hamelin and Collodi sit comfortably at tier one of Masters in the game while over half of the Gremlin Masters aren't there so I'm not sure whether this balancing has succeeded. Again, very few Gremlin Masters are generally considered tier 1 (Som'er, Zipp, Wong perhaps) and the faction as a whole is definitely not tier 1. Note that Som'er can get activation control without hiring Stuffed Piglets (and so can Ulix) and Wong hires them for blowing, rather than for activation control. So not sure who this errata is going to "fix". The likes of Ophelia or Mah Tucket? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: Again, very few Gremlin Masters are generally considered tier 1 (Som'er, Zipp, Wong perhaps) and the faction as a whole is definitely not tier 1. Note that Som'er can get activation control without hiring Stuffed Piglets (and so can Ulix) and Wong hires them for blowing, rather than for activation control. So not sure who this errata is going to "fix". The likes of Ophelia or Mah Tucket? I absolutely believe gremlins to be tier 1. There is no question in my opinion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, edopersichetti said: Again, very few Gremlin Masters are generally considered tier 1 (Som'er, Zipp, Wong perhaps) and the faction as a whole is definitely not tier 1. Note that Som'er can get activation control without hiring Stuffed Piglets (and so can Ulix) and Wong hires them for blowing, rather than for activation control. So not sure who this errata is going to "fix". The likes of Ophelia or Mah Tucket? This is ridicolously high compared to other Factions. Guild has Nellie, Arcanists have Sandep. OC have Hamelin and Leveticus. Gremlins haveing 3 is not really bad. Gremlin faction is pretty high in the rankings. Its definitely not in the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted July 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, Travis said: In regards to GG18 being available soon, will it be a finalized version or a beta version of the new schemes? Beta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, edopersichetti said: Again, very few Gremlin Masters are generally considered tier 1 (Som'er, Zipp, Wong perhaps) and the faction as a whole is definitely not tier 1. Note that Som'er can get activation control without hiring Stuffed Piglets (and so can Ulix) and Wong hires them for blowing, rather than for activation control. So not sure who this errata is going to "fix". The likes of Ophelia or Mah Tucket? It fixes 2 SS models being hireable by an entire faction. Which allows them a bit more leeway in the next models they design, it makes it harder for the already strong masters to make use of them so freely, and keeps the game in a healthier place. And Gremlins are pretty damn strong buddy. Not particularly popular, but very strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Aaron said: Beta Thumbs up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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