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July 2017 Errata


Lucidicide

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It's not about what was errata'd was unbeatable. Very little is in Malifaux, if you play to your schemes and strategy. But they make for unfun gaming experiences for the person on the other side. You end up with, as you experienced, little you can do against it. You can play around it (something you can't do in 40k, and one of the reasons I gave that game up after 20 years), but being able to play around it is not the point.

Balance isn't just there to make the game fair. It's there to make it enjoyable. People defend 40k's imbalance because the game is about 'fun' and not 'competitiveness'. What you experienced is what happens when little effort it put into balance. While effort was done in this new edition of 40k, it's still run by the sales department, and if they want something to be good so it sells well, that's what happens.

When a game is not balanced, it's not fun. You can make it fun by homebrewing the shit out of it, which is what people do to 40k games. Comp, house rules, gentlemans agreements on list composition, etc. A well designed game needs none of that. Unfortunately, even well designed games have problems. Designers and testers don't catch everything.

What makes a good games company is when they look beyond making a box sell well by making it overperform, and make changes for the health of the game as a whole. I'm glad you have some perspective now, but I feel like you learned it the real hard way. 40k is not a fun game when you're on the receiving end of cheese.

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As far as Malifaux is concerned, I would argue that certain things that were nurfed would not classify as "cheese". For example, to stop the Papa Box, just simply kill the Death Marshall. Not too hard to do. As far as the Austringer, yes, 18" range without LOS will be hard to get to, however, the damage is weak and as far as the discard, you must win the duel, and then get/ cheat a mask to get the trigger for that, and an Austringer cannot use a soul stone to get it. I've found it harder to get that trigger off due to the suit requirement. Even if you had the suits in your hand, by the time you force your opponent to discard, your hand is empty from cheating to get it. So, in my opinion, the trade off is not worth it.

Again, I appreciate the errata more now after last night in cases of crews/ armies that are one sided and indefensible. I don't think that the above errata hits that threshhold, but again, I now have a better understanding instead of being adamantly opposed without fail on any and all errata.

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3 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

For example, to stop the Papa Box, just simply kill the Death Marshall. Not too hard to do. As far as the Austringer, yes, 18" range without LOS will be hard to get to, however, the damage is weak and as far as the discard, you must win the duel, and then get/ cheat a mask to get the trigger for that, and an Austringer cannot use a soul stone to get it. I've found it harder to get that trigger off due to the suit requirement. Even if you had the suits in your hand, by the time you force your opponent to discard, your hand is empty from cheating to get it. So, in my opinion, the trade off is not worth it.

Austringers had a 18" range of autokilling a lot of scheme runners. That was huge for 6SS. Was it unbeatable? No. Was it too good? Probably yes.

 

Papa in a Box wasn't as easy as you think. The biggest thing was you had a 2-3 turn buff on Sonnia. It was also pretty easy to charge something with the Marshal. Use Pinebox to get hin out and compaion to blow up a few models

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That's one of the things that's subtly insidious about Austringers. Their damage track is just at the point where it's hard to want to cheat against them to force a miss, which makes the mid-tier Masks in your opponent's hand much stronger, and trading one mid-tier to upper-tier Mask for two cards from your opponent's hand can be very strong, particularly if they've already expended a Soulstone to sculpt their hand at the beginning of the turn. Sometimes your opponent will have a just plain crap hand where two Austringer triggers will eat nothing better than a four, but cutting down to two cards, even if the remainder are both high, can cut off stuff like Defensive Stance, models that have card cycling rather than card drawing, all kinds of stuff.

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16 minutes ago, trikk said:

Papa in a Box wasn't as easy as you think. The biggest thing was you had a 2-3 turn buff on Sonnia. It was also pretty easy to charge something with the Marshal. Use Pinebox to get hin out and compaion to blow up a few models

I have never used Sonnia, but the other tactic you mentioned was my main reason for using Papa. I prefer to put him in the box to get him in position. He is vulnerable by himself, too slow, and if he dies near your own crew, it could be a disaster. So boxing him is almost necessary to be able to unleash his true purpose as a model, to be the suicide bomber. The + for damage would have been a bonus for while he was boxed. Really, that was his best ability. Now, it's not worth taking him for it because you'll get the Hold This turn one, then that's it, because if you keep him close to who he buffed so he can do it again, he could blow up and kill them along with it. 

In exchange for his nurf, they should have improved his Df and or Wk. He's too slow and too vulnerable.

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24 minutes ago, aquenaton said:

Speaking of horrible experiences that decimate your crew from turn one, I think the Victorias can do exactly that, but are also very fragile, so everything they cannot kill will kill them in return. I love that, in Malifaux, you can win the game even if you have no models left (it happens to me a lot with my gremlins), because you just need to make shure your model does what he needs to do to provide VP.

Yes, I have had that happen to me with the Victoria's. They are amazingly strong, but I do not support any errata to their stats. I prefer to find a way to deal with it, which should be attainable and not impossible, unlike above mentioned 40k game.

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19 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Yes, I have had that happen to me with the Victoria's. They are amazingly strong, but I do not support any errata to their stats. I prefer to find a way to deal with it, which should be attainable and not impossible, unlike above mentioned 40k game.

They also work as intended and thats why there is no need for errata

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On 19/8/2017 at 3:25 PM, Hot4Perdita said:

I have never used Sonnia, but the other tactic you mentioned was my main reason for using Papa. I prefer to put him in the box to get him in position. He is vulnerable by himself, too slow, and if he dies near your own crew, it could be a disaster. So boxing him is almost necessary to be able to unleash his true purpose as a model, to be the suicide bomber. The + for damage would have been a bonus for while he was boxed. Really, that was his best ability. Now, it's not worth taking him for it because you'll get the Hold This turn one, then that's it, because if you keep him close to who he buffed so he can do it again, he could blow up and kill them along with it. 

In exchange for his nurf, they should have improved his Df and or Wk. He's too slow and too vulnerable.

So, you are saying  that, your main reason to box Papa Loco was to protect him until you can unleash his power, and the :+fate to damage was a bonus, but now that you don't have the bonus, the main reason is not enough to keep him in your lists? 

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On ‎19‎.‎8‎.‎2017 at 3:43 PM, -Loki- said:

While effort was done in this new edition of 40k, it's still run by the sales department, and if they want something to be good so it sells well, that's what happens.

I dunno - I've mostly heard that the new Primaris Marines are a bit lackluster on the table.

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On 2017-08-19 at 4:52 PM, aquenaton said:

I think now the model has two different, mutually exclusive functions. You can use him as a buffer, but it is dangerous. A :+fate to damage is HUGE in this game, so it has a high price right now.

In fairness there is the toolkit in arcanists that hand out that exact buff for 3ss so it can't be that huge. Arcanists also have Willie who costs 6 soulstones and has a pretty decent damage output as well only ten times more reliable. I would vastly prefer those two models together for 2ss more than Loco since that gives you  an extra activation and a lot more reliability instead of a huge liability. Loco is devastating against people who don't know what he does but any half-decent player will figure out a way to stop him before he causes maximum mayhem, often causing mayhem in your lines while doing so. Even the possibility of a sniper or an obey on the other side of the table invalidates him when I pick a list.

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1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

In fairness there is the toolkit in arcanists that hand out that exact buff for 3ss so it can't be that huge. Arcanists also have Willie who costs 6 soulstones and has a pretty decent damage output as well only ten times more reliable. I would vastly prefer those two models together for 2ss more than Loco since that gives you  an extra activation and a lot more reliability instead of a huge liability. Loco is devastating against people who don't know what he does but any half-decent player will figure out a way to stop him before he causes maximum mayhem, often causing mayhem in your lines while doing so. Even the possibility of a sniper or an obey on the other side of the table invalidates him when I pick a list.

Toolkit only works on Constructs.

As for Loco- Numb solves the obey issue

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Toolkit only works on Constructs.

As for Loco- Numb solves the obey issue

It doesn't solve the issue of needing him to be in one place to buff and another place to attack. I'd happily knock off the buff if he was a stone or two cheaper so he couls focus on one job.

For me a model that kills my own models doean't exactly fit the tag "awesome support piece". :D

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10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

It doesn't solve the issue of needing him to be in one place to buff and another place to attack. I'd happily knock off the buff if he was a stone or two cheaper so he couls focus on one job.

For me a model that kills my own models doean't exactly fit the tag "awesome support piece". :D

I agree. But its harder to drop 9 wds with atracks than with 3 obeys ;)

I think you need Abuela to obey him to move next to Sonnia and companion to give buff and walk away.

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

I agree. But its harder to drop 9 wds with atracks than with 3 obeys ;)

I think you need Abuela to obey him to move next to Sonnia and companion to give buff and walk away.

Something like that yeah which still means there's a 7ss tax on taking your 7ss model to give a 3ss buff to your master. Both Abuela and Loco have about half the range of Sonnia so they are unlikely to want to be in the same place. 

In a Perdita list I think you can still work around it with the shackled nephilim pushing and companioning into Loco if you want the buff. That's a little easier for me to stomach. Perdita can also thrive closer to the enemy so Loco might even get to attack something. Sonnia really wants to keep them at extreme ranges.

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5 hours ago, Zebo said:

So, you are saying  that, your main reason to box Papa Loco was to protect him until you can unleash his power, and the :+fate to damage was a bonus, but now that you don't have the bonus, the main reason is not enough to keep him in your lists? 

I guess I worded that sort of wrong. I meant that if you field him for Hold This as your main purpose, then it's not worth it, because he has to stay close to give it and he is too much of a liability to stay close. I wish that ability was on a different model that doesn't blow up. 

Like mentioned above, + on damage flips is a great buff, but it is far from uncommon in the game. The toolkit was mentioned, but there are several models that have + built in or through some ability or trigger in their card. I fail to see how it was such an issue with the Papa model. I know people think it made Sonnia too powerful, but you can give Howard Langston + damage with reactivate and his damage is way more devastating than what Sonnia can do. Plus, he's much more resilient than Sonnia and her wimpy Df 4. Sonnia would be easy too kill before she causes too much problem.

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2 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Like mentioned above, + on damage flips is a great buff, but it is far from uncommon in the game. The toolkit was mentioned, but there are several models that have + built in or through some ability or trigger in their card. I fail to see how it was such an issue with the Papa model. 

Because a master with multiple blasts on her attack can get it. Sonnia is the reason for the Papabox getting killed. The toolkit doesn't buff 3ap blast models and the rogue necro can only do it's blast attack once per activation.

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Its pretty simple. The 2 masters that use Loco the most are Perdita (big moderate spike) and Sonnia (multiple blasts).

So ya, other models do have positives to damage but they usually are not cheap or have a flat damage spread/no blasts.

Damagewise, Sonnia with Loco tops most models in the game.

Now if we look at Toolkit and big beaters/Masters

Arcanists don't really have a beater construct master, so thats out. Both Joss and Howard have prett flat damage tracks and the only real use is the Rail Golem tbh but he's not seen a lot.

 

So while I agree that the Toolkit and Loco buff are similar, the effects thry have on the game are not

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

Arcanists don't really have a beater construct master, so thats out. Both Joss and Howard have prett flat damage tracks and the only real use is the Rail Golem tbh but he's not seen a lot.

 

So while I agree that the Toolkit and Loco buff are similar, the effects thry have on the game are not

I updated my previous post to elaborate. Here it is pasted from above:

I know people think it made Sonnia too powerful, but you can give Howard Langston + damage with reactivate and his damage is way more devastating than what Sonnia can do. Plus, he's much more resilient than Sonnia and her wimpy Df 4. Sonnia would be easy to kill before she causes too much problem.

 

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Coryphee and Mech rider are decent candidates for that buff. People also forget that it can buff three different things, all of which can be really handy in the right circumstances. Adding a point of armour to something costs our Master Hoffman a full ap and a scrap marker. When you're facing Yin you're going to be really glad that Joss or Langston gets a built in :+fate to his attacks.

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10 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

I updated my previous post to elaborate. Here it is pasted from above:

I know people think it made Sonnia too powerful, but you can give Howard Langston + damage with reactivate and his damage is way more devastating than what Sonnia can do. Plus, he's much more resilient than Sonnia and her wimpy Df 4. Sonnia would be easy to kill before she causes too much problem.

 

Boosting the 4/5/6 of Langston is radically different from the difference between not blasting at all or blasting three markers placed up to 8" away with three damage to each model hit. His damage is already devastating, it's the reactivate and not the :+fate to damage that makes that thing horrible. I would probably rather boost his attack duels than the damage actually. With the Locobox you could often boost her df instead of Ca and throw in Francisco so she was at 6 or 8 through most of the early game since she didn't need to win attack duels with more than one point and started above almost any defence in the game.

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5 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

I updated my previous post to elaborate. Here it is pasted from above:

I know people think it made Sonnia too powerful, but you can give Howard Langston + damage with reactivate and his damage is way more devastating than what Sonnia can do. Plus, he's much more resilient than Sonnia and her wimpy Df 4. Sonnia would be easy to kill before she causes too much problem.

Giving :+fate to damage to Howard will most likely end up with +1 damage per attack.

Giving :+fate to damage to Sonnia usually ends up with +5 damage per attack.

 

Thats a huge difference. I also don't know why you are so obsessed with Howard. Last time I saw him in play the biggest thing he did is made me BJ a Horror on Perdita ;).

I sometimes play Hoffman and I don't even consider him in my crews and IMHO he's a lot better in Hoffman.

The Reactivate schtick works once most of the time and you spend most of those actions walking from my experience

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Howard is just an example. I mention him because of his very high damage spread. Sonnia maxes at 5. Yes, she has the blast marker, but it's easy to counter. Just spread your models out more. I learned that lesson real quick after being annihilated by Victoria of Blood and whirlwind. I will make sure to spread my models out next time to prevent that from occurring again. 

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