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July 2017 Errata

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7 hours ago, -Loki- said:

No one is happy about Cuddles. Cuddles also get complained about faster than buffs are applauded because Cuddles destabilise the game faster than buffs, because a Cuddle will instantly alter peoples current playstyle, while a buff takes time for people to test and figure out.

However, dragging 'false advertising' into it is a bit absurd.

Anyone try a 6 guardian + Lucius list yet :)  I promise, it is  A LOT of fun!

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33 minutes ago, MinionJack said:

Let us take it easy.

 

I was his opponent in this game and I put him in a bad situation with his Ramos summoning engine turn 1 of the game.  The Mech Rider errata was a change he hadn't counted on and was like salt in the wound at that point in turn 2.

 

Please don't let his frustration be reason to heckle him; he is a really nice guy. 

 

**Note, I am in not intending to point the "no heckling" finger at you in particular.

personally I think springing an errata on him part way through the game isn't particually fair (especially since there was already this Errata history)

I play several games, and know errata are quite common, but in the few weeks following changes we normally ask one another if we want to use the new rules, just to make sure people know about them. (My opponent on tuesday had even printed out changed cards ready for me). 

Telling someone part way through a game that what they are using is wrong by 24 hours ad then making them play by rules they didn't know at the start of the game is not really a good way to keep opponents. 

EDIT- PS  Hotforperdita,  the Howard trick isn't a new one. I think you're safe with that one for at least the next 6 months, and almost certainly longer. 

Second edit - As has been pointed out, You didn't make him. He chose to use them (Sounds like a good sport) but I still think for a few weeks we have the responsibility to let our opponents know there have been errata before we start the game if we know about it

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39 minutes ago, Bakunin said:

Maybe Hot4Perdita should parlay his new-found skills into a business opportunity. 

I'll pay $100 US plus the cost of the models if you buy McCabe and Yasunori and give it Recalled Training sometime around December :D

Maybe start Sandeep as well.

Not sure about what you mean on that.

I'm not too familiar with Sandeep or Yasunori. I don't pay much attention to Wave 4 models. I skimmed through them and most don't look too good, minus death Marshall recruiters. I don't know of anyone in our local circle playing those Wave 4 masters. I know someone who bought Nellie and Parker when they came out, but only played them once as far as I know.

Yes, McCabe looks great. Not so much by himself, but what he can take. I plan on getting him soon. Probably my favorite model that I almost always take at least a couple of in a Guild crew are Guild Hounds. They're not much for attacking or resilience, but they are fast and cheap. Gives you a good activation advantage at the start anyway. With Luna, oh boy! I can't wait to field my dogs then! 

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3 minutes ago, Adran said:

EDIT- PS  Hotforperdita,  the Howard trick isn't a new one. I think you're safe with that one for at least the next 6 months, and almost certainly longer. 

A'yep. Yasunori is more abusive, IMO, and hasn't been hit yet. 

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9 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Anyone try a 6 guardian + Lucius list yet :)  I promise, it is  A LOT of fun!

I'll look into it. Lucius never really appealed to me, and he looks pretty weak. He doesn't look like he can do much, but I'll look again. Thanks.

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20 minutes ago, Adran said:

personally I think springing an errata on him part way through the game isn't particually fair (especially since there was already this Errata history)

I play several games, and know errata are quite common, but in the few weeks following changes we normally ask one another if we want to use the new rules, just to make sure people know about them. (My opponent on tuesday had even printed out changed cards ready for me). 

Telling someone part way through a game that what they are using is wrong by 24 hours ad then making them play by rules they didn't know at the start of the game is not really a good way to keep opponents. 

EDIT- PS  Hotforperdita,  the Howard trick isn't a new one. I think you're safe with that one for at least the next 6 months, and almost certainly longer. 

No, my oppenent is a great guy. He gave me the option of using the original card pre-errata. It's not him, I'm just upset at the whole errata thing from Wyrd. It seems that every time I buy a new model, they change it for the worse.

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4 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Not sure about what you mean on that.

I'm not too familiar with Sandeep or Yasunori. I don't pay much attention to Wave 4 models. I skimmed through them and most don't look too good, minus death Marshall recruiters. I don't know of anyone in our local circle playing those Wave 4 masters. I know someone who bought Nellie and Parker when they came out, but only played them once as far as I know.

Yes, McCabe looks great. Not so much by himself, but what he can take. I plan on getting him soon. Probably my favorite model that I almost always take at least a couple of in a Guild crew are Guild Hounds. They're not much for attacking or resilience, but they are fast and cheap. Gives you a good activation advantage at the start anyway. With Luna, oh boy! I can't wait to field my dogs then! 

He means he wants those models cuddled... They're the current powerhouses (along with Reva and a few Emissaries) that "everyone" wants "fixed". 

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McCabe with Yasunori is seen by many as pushing the limits of NPE, and both of the previous masters you bought were errated. I was suggesting your luck would hold long enough to get Yasunori cuddled as well, and jokingly offered to pay for it to happen.

I also agree with Adran, springing an errata like that is not cool. Mention it when the Rider is first hired, or wait until the game ends to bring it up.

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8 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

I don't see how trying to build a good crew and actually trying to win when playing a competitive game would be selfish.

Building a good crew for the game is fine. Using models that are over the curve and then taking up arms when they are adjusted is not. 

 

Quote

You're from New England, right? What do you think about this: I think Tom Brady is way too good, especially with under inflated footballs. They should errata Tom Brady to only allow one touchdown pass attempt per quarter, because otherwise it creates a negative play experience for my team. 

I think you are absolutely correct in this statement as watching the same team win the games is boring :D But I don't care much for aligning myself to ones "home sports ball teams" purely out of obligation for my geographical location.

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Honestly Hot4Perdita, I can sympathize with being blindsided by errata right after a purchase.  I am, in fact, still angry with Guild Ball and Steamforged with how they handed their season 3 changes.  However, Wyrd is very up front on when to expect errata, they have it on a regular schedule of January and July.  Also Wyrd has never changed the core concept of a model,  while a model might be toned down, it has never out right stopped filling the role it previously did.

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34 minutes ago, Adran said:

EDIT- PS  Hotforperdita,  the Howard trick isn't a new one. I think you're safe with that one for at least the next 6 months, and almost certainly longer. 

Really? I spent a lot of time analyzing cards to come up with that. I didn't get it online or anything. I guess it's a pretty good tactic if others are using it.

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47 minutes ago, Bakunin said:

McCabe with Yasunori is seen by many as pushing the limits of NPE, and both of the previous masters you bought were errated. I was suggesting your luck would hold long enough to get Yasunori cuddled as well, and jokingly offered to pay for it to happen.

I also agree with Adran, springing an errata like that is not cool. Mention it when the Rider is first hired, or wait until the game ends to bring it up.

I just looked up Yasunori. That looks like a brutal model! How does playing it with McCabe make it better?

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3 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

I just looked up Yasunori. That looks like a brutal model! How does playing it with McCabe make it better?

It can get an 8" push and nimble, and potentially additional :+fate to attack flips within 6" from McCabe thanks to Promises upgrade. Also, McCabe can recruit guild hounds thanks to his Infiltration and reactivate some minion, allowing him to up the activation count significantly compared to other TT masters.

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1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

Anyone try a 6 guardian + Lucius list yet :)  I promise, it is  A LOT of fun!

No, but I've had four guardians plus Hoffman plus flavor thrown against me a few times now. Because what that setup needed was more healing. :) (Fair trade for my having thrown Df10 Hoffman against him into Eliminate the Leadership, the previous game.)

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31 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Really? I spent a lot of time analyzing cards to come up with that. I didn't get it online or anything. I guess it's a pretty good tactic if others are using it.

Yep, and people have been using the tactic pretty much since Ramos was released so it's very unlikely to receive an errata anytime soon.  It's also incredibly easy to see it coming.  As soon as you put Reactivate on Howard, your opponent knows to protect their important models.  It's still a strong tactic, even if it gets telegraphed to your opponent easily but there's a lot they can do to mitigate the effects.
 

I can definitely empathize with your frustration.  I'm not sure erratas could be called "false advertising" because, as someone pointed out, you can still accomplish exactly what Wyrd advertises with or without the errata.  Overall, it's for the health of the game.

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16 minutes ago, Lakshman said:

It can get an 8" push and nimble, and potentially additional :+fate to attack flips within 6" from McCabe thanks to Promises upgrade. Also, McCabe can recruit guild hounds thanks to his Infiltration and reactivate some minion, allowing him to up the activation count significantly compared to other TT masters.

It can also get Regeneration and Armor from the other upgrades. :)

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6 minutes ago, Mutter said:

It can also get Regeneration and Armor from the other upgrades. :)

And Yasunori can use its Kodoku ability on any  minion that has the Glowing Saber attached.  Since the Glowing Saber has a built in ram, the attack will get up to +3 damage ignoring armor, hard to wound, hard to kill, and incorporeal without the need for a high ram card in hand.

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55 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Really? I spent a lot of time analyzing cards to come up with that. I didn't get it online or anything. I guess it's a pretty good tactic if others are using it.

I was facing "Super Howard" in tournaments long before I started working for Wyrd, so it's not a surprise combo. Ramos is pretty good about giving your crew Activation control, and Howard comes in the same box, so...

 

Eventually, though, my opponents shifted away from Howard and into using a Rail Golem for the same role. It's a bit less damage base, but Locomotion grants additional attacks and pushes the Rail Golem's damage higher. It also has increased accuracy and armor, the ability to push around enemy models, and it doesn't need to pitch a card to Flurry (you can usually top-deck Locomotion). The Rail Golem is a bit slower, but he would use Union Miners to shoot Burning onto it while they were running schemes, which let it Locomotion all over the place. 

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. :P

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1 hour ago, Hot4Perdita said:

- Ramos with Electric Summoning, Under Pressure, Sieze the day, 6 ss cache

- Brass Arachnid

- Joss with Bleeding Edge Tech

- Howard Langston with Imbued Energies

- Mechanical Rider 

- Mobile Tool Kit

Slightly off topic, but just some suggestions about your list.  Ramos is the kind of master who wants cards in hand, desperately.  I strongly suggest in future games you use Arcane Reservoir, or take a model who lets you draw cards (my favourite for the job's Sue).  You also have way too many points on high powered beaters, especially for a match that needs you to spread out like Guard the Stash (you've got 34ss plus upgrades on 3 models).  Ramos' summoning is good, but unless you're converting the Arachnids into Swarms they're fairly low value summons alone, meaning your opponent taking out one of your beaters can nearly destroy your list right there.  For the same strat/schemes I'd trim one of the expensive models off your list and bring in more flexible models, or if you just want beaters swap in a pair of Large Arachnids.

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13 minutes ago, retnab said:

Slightly off topic, but just some suggestions about your list.  Ramos is the kind of master who wants cards in hand, desperately.  I strongly suggest in future games you use Arcane Reservoir, or take a model who lets you draw cards (my favourite for the job's Sue).  You also have way too many points on high powered beaters, especially for a match that needs you to spread out like Guard the Stash (you've got 34ss plus upgrades on 3 models).  Ramos' summoning is good, but unless you're converting the Arachnids into Swarms they're fairly low value summons alone, meaning your opponent taking out one of your beaters can nearly destroy your list right there.  For the same strat/schemes I'd trim one of the expensive models off your list and bring in more flexible models, or if you just want beaters swap in a pair of Large Arachnids.

Yes, I really wanted arcane reservoir, as well as some other upgrades. Unfortunately, Ramos can only select three. Very tough choices with so many great upgrades. I chose seize the day in the end for that particular scenario since I thought I would need the initiative to finish off the leader. As far as the list, I guess my reasoning was to take the heavy hitters, though expensive, and rely on the summons to get my minion scheme runners.

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1 hour ago, skoatz said:

And Yasunori can use its Kodoku ability on any  minion that has the Glowing Saber attached.  Since the Glowing Saber has a built in ram, the attack will get up to +3 damage ignoring armor, hard to wound, hard to kill, and incorporeal without the need for a high ram card in hand.

Yes, but you still have to win the duel for it to work, and you only get one attack. Plus, you have lots of work to do to get in a position to make it work that way.

I read up on McCabes stats and upgrades, along with Yasunori. Yes, the Yasunori model is strong, but not out of line with other models. It's also a very expensive model. It's damage triggers are really nothing more than Melee Expert. Armor, stubborn, and flight are all common. I've seen other models with the peek at your deck action. Kodoku is more or less an obey, which other models have. The only unique thing I see is the trigger "wrath of the heavens". To achieve the above example with glowing saber will require the right positioning, etc, over several activations, and then it's not even guaranteed to work. 

So to me, I do not think this combo is over the top. I hope it stays. 

Another thought to the errata. If something is too strong, instead of nurfing the stats, they should just increase the cost to hire it, reducing your other resources. Example: in WWII games your going to pay a LOT to field a Tiger tank. Pretty much nothing can penetrate its armor. It's way powerful and almost indestructible. However, it will take up over half your points in your army list leaving you with not much else. That's why you don't see many people using them. Their cost reflects their strength.

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5 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Another thought to the errata. If something is too strong, instead of nurfing the stats, they should just increase the cost to hire it, reducing your other resources. Example: in WWII games your going to pay a LOT to field a Tiger tank. Pretty much nothing can penetrate its armor. It's way powerful and almost indestructible. However, it will take up over half your points in your army list leaving you with not much else. That's why you don't see many people using them. Their cost reflects their strength.

Problem with that is you raise the cost too much and suddenly the model becomes obsolete or not worth hiring (see the last 9 or so pages on the change to stuffed pigs).

 

Honestly there is no real good solution when it comes to game balance after the initial release, so Wyrd is left of just choosing their own poison. Personally my favourite approach is what Privateer Press tends to do and that seems to be to build synergy around weaker units to bring them up to base (example releasing a solo or commander that buffs a unit making them stronger), but now you kind of need to pay a tax to make that original model worth it. 

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Tax models are tricky in a game with such a low model count unless they are way to cheap in which case they get spammed. 

Just making stuff so expensive that no one wants to field it seems like a really bad sollution since you want people to field the models, just not at the exclusion of everything else. The tiger tank thing seems like a bad way to balance something in a game where one of the missions can be to kill the tiger tank. ;) 

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I'll clarify I don't quite believe the whole Yasunori bit is too much,  Viktoria of Blood does about the same thing and isn't impossible to deal with. Something will die though.

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On the topic of how Wyrd does errata, really it's the best way I've seen so far.  I much prefer it to That One Game Company's method of a total overhaul of factions in staggered, unpredictable orders, mostly but not always just at edition changes, and with no guarantee of quality (or that your models will even be available to play whatsoever).

Or, That One Big Mech/Monster Game Company who does their erratas fairly similar to Wyrd's method, but they are far more hesitant than Wyrd to do necessarily large scale changes (see: Lucius) outside of edition changes, and even then shockingly little actually changes.

Really, I'm not certain how they could do their erratas better.  They already release the cards for free to be printed off, have them at set times (summer for the "this needs fixing" changes and winter for the lesser changes).  They do buffs and cuddles, so it's not that they're exclusively devaluing products, and actively try to make un-fun things better in both directions (see: the lack of counterplay to Austringers, Colette only ever using Prompt 3x on one model, or The Nothing Beast becoming a Henchman).

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