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July 2017 Errata


Lucidicide

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Just now, edopersichetti said:

Now, I don't know about data being manipulated and whatnot.

But in all friendliness and frankness, I can tell you that, as a Gremlin player, I hardly feel I play a particularly strong faction. There are three viable masters (which is different from dominant) and the rest are simply not competitive. And when I play tournaments, I bring Neverborn (or even Arcanists).

I totally understand but that anegdotal data.

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Just now, trikk said:

I would also like to point out that Arcanists had 3 changes which probably means they are the most problematic.

I would also also like to point out that errata doesn`t have a lot to do with power level. Its usually NPE/game breaking models or things that don`t work as intended

But that's the thing: were the Stuffed Piglets really game breaking/not working? Gosh, you guys...

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Errata looks great!

3SS Stuffed Piglets are a fair balance - makes them situational instead of take a bunch to force your opponent into an NPE for dirt cheap. Activation Control as a whole needs visited on in any potential 2.5E core ruleset since it's so unfun in general to play against.

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5 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

So we score good on average but we hardly ever win anything? What's the point of that? Arrive 3rd to every tournament?

This question is from a totally non-Malifaux perspective. Which faction is better. The one that is consecutively 2nd or 3rd or the ones that are either 1st or 10th?

 

3 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

But that's the thing: were the Stuffed Piglets really game breaking/not working? Gosh, you guys...

Yes, they were. You had faction-wide 2SS models which are exactly the reason rats were changed. They also are super durable for 2SS (4Wds) and blow up volunatarily for silly damage while often denying points.

 

1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that Stuffeds were broken but they were fixed wrong in a way which makes them probably wholly absent from tournament lists (perhaps barring Wong). Similar to the Roosters who are now getting a new Henchman to give them Reactivate to fix the fix they had...

I honestly can`t think of a better solution. I know its not perfect but most of the ones I can come up with don`t really fix the issue of spammable 2SS activations.

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3 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Please read this post before you start with those stats:

And while you're at it, check out this one as well:

 

Thanks. Precisely my point is that the whole Gremlin faction is designed to be balanced upon outnumbering tactics, both by hiring a lot of cheap models, and by having Reckless. And it seems to me this balancing works in general, since they are definitely NOT a dominant faction. Now taking this away means severely impacting the faction mechanics as a whole. And yet we lost Reckless on the Rooster Riders, and now we lose 1SS on the Stuffed Piglets...

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3 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that Stuffeds were broken but they were fixed wrong in a way which makes them probably wholly absent from tournament lists (perhaps barring Wong). Similar to the Roosters who are now getting a new Henchman to give them Reactivate to fix the fix they had...

Yep.

This bring back memories of when we said "taking away Reckless from Roosters is the wrong fix".

Some models need a cuddle? Sure. But that is very far away from making them entirely useless...

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Two soulstone piglets aren't really like rats because the rats would give you seven activations or something for the price of four activations with piglets. I predict seing a lot less piglets now that they are the cost of a bayou gremlin.

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Just now, Mr Janje said:

Could you not have just made the Stuffed Piglets be forced to activate last?

"Slop for Brains" - This model may not activate whilst there are models without this ability yet to activate


Or some better wording

To be honest, they could have made anything else: reduce stats to be less durable, forced to activate last, make self-exploding harder...raising the cost to 3SS seems to convey the idea that they didn't want to spend too much time on this...

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1 minute ago, edopersichetti said:

Thanks. Precisely my point is that the whole Gremlin faction is designed to be balanced upon outnumbering tactics, both by hiring a lot of cheap models, and by having Reckless. And it seems to me this balancing works in general, since they are definitely NOT a dominant faction. Now taking this away means severely impacting the faction mechanics as a whole. And yet we lost Reckless on the Rooster Riders, and now we lose 1SS on the Stuffed Piglets...

TBH most other factions would gladly hire the current Roosters in the current form.

 

Just now, Ludvig said:

Two soulstone piglets aren't really like rats because the rats would give you seven activations or something for the price of four activations with piglets. I predict seing a lot less piglets now that they are the cost of a bayou gremlin.

But a sole Rat is worse than a sole Stuffed Piglet.

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1 minute ago, edopersichetti said:

Yep.

This bring back memories of when we said "taking away Reckless from Roosters is the wrong fix".

Some models need a cuddle? Sure. But that is very far away from making them entirely useless...

They're not "entirely useless", they just won't be spammed without a specific purpose anymore. They can still be summoned all the same, Wong still likes one or two, if you're feeling pigapulty you can still go with some. It just won't allow you to pad out your list for dirt cheap.

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3 minutes ago, trikk said:

But a sole Rat is worse than a sole Stuffed Piglet.

Well yeah but who takes a sole rat? They need to be balanced in how they actually function. I'd hate it if this errata made them never see the table again. Not saying it's the wrong fix because I really don't feel qualified to comment on that. Just saying their out-activation schtick was never even near rats.

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9 minutes ago, trikk said:

This question is from a totally non-Malifaux perspective. Which faction is better. The one that is consecutively 2nd or 3rd or the ones that are either 1st or 10th?

 

Yes, they were. You had faction-wide 2SS models which are exactly the reason rats were changed. They also are super durable for 2SS (4Wds) and blow up volunatarily for silly damage while often denying points.

The problem with stuffed pigs is aside from being a safe 2SS (which imo is what should have changed) is they are also what makes the pigapult work. 

I would have either like to see stuffed pigs get an increase in cost and the pigapult a decrease in cost 

or imo the better solution would be to make stuffed pigs a riskier hire or limit their hiring.

Pigapult with 2 rounds of ammo now costs 14-16SS and that is a lot of points sunk into insignificant models. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, edopersichetti said:

I'll trade ya with Rotten Belles (even after their cuddle!) :D

I`d agree with you if I said Rotten Belles are useless after the change but I think it just made you feel a little less sad after getting Lured 4 times in a row ;)

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

This question is from a totally non-Malifaux perspective. Which faction is better. The one that is consecutively 2nd or 3rd or the ones that are either 1st or 10th?

 

Yes, they were. You had faction-wide 2SS models which are exactly the reason rats were changed. They also are super durable for 2SS (4Wds) and blow up volunatarily for silly damage while often denying points.

To the first point: spot on. If a faction is consistently in the top three at a large event regardless of region, it has some tools to it that give it greater reliability and/or stability.

On the second: the rats presented a problem when combined with the super-high quality models that the Outcasts have. We're seeing more high-quality Gremlins arrive, especially under Wong (the master that internet wisdom here is suggesting would be the only master to use them with the change).

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Just now, Tokapondora said:

They're not "entirely useless", they just won't be spammed without a specific purpose anymore. They can still be summoned all the same, Wong still likes one or two, if you're feeling pigapulty you can still go with some. It just won't allow you to pad out your list for dirt cheap.

Lol pigapult was already silly before, now with 3SS ammo? No, sorry.

So yes, summon only. It's a pity, that's all.

As for "entirely useless": as I (and others) said, now at this cost they compete with Bayou which are plain better in almost all situations. Trust that Gremlin players know their faction and what is playable/competitive and what is not. We're not coming to you telling which models in your faction are good and which aren't.

 

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This idea that Gremlins are supposed to be the swarm you army of cheap activations and minions sounds great in theory. Then you look at their mid-tier priced units - Burt, Francois, Swinecursed, Trixie, Taxidermist - and you realize that these models all punch way above their 7ss price tag. 

Looking at the data across the country is meaningless, because middle tier and bottom tier players skew the results by playing subpar crews or subpar Masters and there are many more middle-tier or lower-tier players in Malifaux then top tier. This isn't Warhammer where you can netlist a particular build and get lucky throwing a handful of dice at a game-winning Magic Spell. In my experience, the bad players in Malifaux are much worse than the bad players in WHFB, and their chances of beating me in a game are much lower than in WHFB as a result.

When you look at the competitive gamers in the Malifaux tournament scene, I think if they're being honest about it, most will tell you that 2ss activation spam is oppressive and too strong for the investment - particularly when it's included in the same faction that after out-activating you, alpha strikes you with the likes of Glowy Burt or 2x Swinecursed, or pulls Francois up with a Skeeter and goes Fast/Reckless/Charges for likely 4 dumb-luck attacks on your Master or key piece. It's why the Rat Engine was broken. If you don't think activation control is more important than ever in GG 17, I don't think you're playing enough.

And yeah, you won't see Piglets now, but that's because Bayous should be 4ss. No one should have access to spammable, summonable, Significant Minions at 3ss. Sorry. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

@trikk NOOOOOOO!!! 

I thought you'd understood what happened with those Rankings!? What do you mean "'zombie accounts' apparently"? 

Did you not go and look at them for yourself??

I didn`t bring up the rankings. I said the data is being skewed by players that no longer appear in the ranking but their scores still count towards the faction stats.

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Burt is the only one that is above par, and yes, Francois is rough (but he also dies pretty quickly), the rest...I think they're pretty fair. Keep in mind we also lack the 10+ SS options that other factions have.

Outnumbering is the main Gremlin tactic, but the faction is also very fragile - something that opponent players tend to easily forget. Most Gremlin models die to a stiff breeze, you know? Or blow themselves up...

Sure, 2SS Stuffed were perhaps too good of a deal but again, I had the impression that it was just faster and less troublesome to raise their cost to 3SS than to try and tweak stats/abilities to make them balanced, while leaving them at 2SS.

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9 minutes ago, Mr Janje said:

Could you not have just made the Stuffed Piglets be forced to activate last?

"Slop for Brains" - This model may not activate whilst there are models without this ability yet to activate


Or some better wording

That stuffed piglet fix wouldn't also have weakened the pigapult; remembering that austringers, the other notorious long range LoS ignoring attack [and that such attacks are one of the common NPEs], had their wings clipped last errata, weakening the pigapult had to have been the deciding factor in the fix. It's an interesting idea though and one that needs to be added to the grab-bag. It's certainly better than the 'activate all Malifaux Rats at once' that was proposed to stop the rat engine.

1 minute ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

@trikk NOOOOOOO!!! 

I thought you'd understood what happened with those Rankings!? What do you mean "'zombie accounts' apparently"? 

Did you not go and look at them for yourself??

I think you're both referring to idiots like me who don't play very well but keep showing up at tournaments and getting added to rankings sites regardless.

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Just now, edopersichetti said:

Burt is the only one that is above par, and yes, Francois is rough (but he also dies pretty quickly), the rest...I think they're pretty fair. Keep in mind we also lack the 10+ SS options that other factions have.

Outnumbering is the main Gremlin tactic, but the faction is also very fragile - something that opponent players tend to easily forget. Most Gremlin models die to a stiff breeze, you know? Or blow themselves up...

Sure, 2SS Stuffed were perhaps too good of a deal but again, I had the impression that it was just faster and less troublesome to raise their cost to 3SS than to try and tweak stats/abilities to make them balanced, while leaving them at 2SS.

Swinecursed and Tavish are pretty good and don`t die to a stiff breeze. 

 

Leaving them at 2SS means you can spam them for activations.

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