Zoraida, Gremlins or Neverborn

[Jafar]

What are main difference between Zoraida in those factions?
My friend is interested in starting game with her, but because our meta is low on Zoraida, I am unable to tell him what are main differences.

For me in Gremlins she has access to Sammy (free upgrade slot), some cheap hitters (Burt) and 1 AP charges from Pigs.
In NeverBorn she has additional WP tricks (Widow Weaver, Insidious madness etc.) and easy access to wisps and Swampmother (summon).

Did I miss something?
Also, I am open to advices on in theme masters for start, especially Lynch in NeverBorn, Yan Lo in Ressers,

 

[Vorschlag]

Her initial box will be more useful in neverborn due to juju's upgrade.

In neverborn you get some nasty tricks like fears given form when the doll activates ( as it hems when it's summoned) and with the addition of wisps the spawn mother will make your silurids more usable via gupps.

Waldgiest and McTavish will be great either way gators and boars less so.

In neverborn wisps gain paralyze via doldrums from sorrows but a nurse and/or Iggy are also common hires.

In gremlins the piggapult, Lenny and slop haulers add some interesting conditions for the doll as do Sammy and stuffed piglets.

Warpigs with a slophauler shine in gremlin Zoraida as do Mancha Roja and rooster riders.

Another option is a recycling neverborn list with the widow weaver reusing the scrap markers from the doll to spam wicked dolls for activation control or save for a teddy.

In this case I can't suggest stitched together strongly enough for both killing the dolls, offering cover and getting + flips from the wicked dolls.

[Mutter]

3 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

In neverborn wisps gain paralyze via doldrums from sorrows ...

No, they don't. Ever Changing Form is Tactical only ...

[Vorschlag]

Oh nice hadn't picked up on that, glad that was pointed out I was about to try running it in tournament this weekend.

[Mutter]

Yeah, I made the same mistake before - would have been nice, though.

[Ludvig]

I think a decent start would be to get McTavish and wisps (and probably a box of waldgeists) with her box. I think she will be likely to use those models in both factions since she can bring them across. That might buy some time to try which styles you like. Nurses are also really fun with her, I would probably recommend that box too, maybe before waldgeists.

[Jafar]

Thanks for all help

[I'm a Teapot!]

with wave 5 id stay with neverborn zoraida since she got a lot more tricks in that faction.

[Ludvig]

30 minutes ago, Drunken Kung Fu Kid said:

with wave 5 id stay with neverborn zoraida since she got a lot more tricks in that faction.

What tricks are you thinking of? She can still take all the swampfiends in gremlins and they have some pretty fun models to play around with like Sammy and Roosters.

[I'm a Teapot!]

So u got the obey charge options: Nekima, Hooded Rider which are much more potent than the gremlins options.
There is Iggy and depression. Cyclops in combination with Nurses and/or Silent ones. There is the mysterious emissary and obeying people onto the hungry land markers. Swamp fiends come without the upgrade and u rly need the slot for more important things. Aether connection is so solid on Zoraida.

I played Gremlins as my main faction and Neverborn as a second Faction and my experience for the last year till now is kinda the following:

Zoraida is a force multiplying master that used what both the factions offered as a strengh.

Gremlins gave her superior cheap super ap-efficent models: Roosters, Burt, Frank, Trixiebelle and Ap-Controll with stuffed piglets. Other than that there were some gimmicky things with mancha rocha and nurses or moon shinoby and nurses but in case of a solid list gremlins offered fast cheap models.

Neverborn had the condition stuff and willpower based combat going and better beaters to obey.

 

Nowdays the beater-force-multiply-option got doubled in efficiency cause of the new upgrade and that helps neverborn way more then gremlins. 

And the best gremlin modells for zoraids got errataed to the trashcan. Some people say roosters are still worth it with zoraida but now that she can charge anyone with just a mask ontop of the rooster charge there is not really a reason for them anymore since they are so fragile.

In wave 5 Neverborn u can have Nekima, whisps and iggy, aether protected zoraida and a nice combo depending on the schemes and strats for a reasonable cost.

 

I might miss some gremlin options here cause i need to experiment some more with gremlin zoraida in wave 5 but at the moment i think neverborn offers more to her.

Edit: You're right, sammy is interesting with her new 18 inc atk upgrade to save ap on zoraida i guess. 

[Ludvig]

Cheers for the writeup. Charging Nekima in does sound pretty nasty. Gremlins give her swinecursed and various pigs who can trigger an awful lot of attacks compared to Nekima but big beaters are always nice. Haven't played her at all in gremlins though only faced her and that was before the new upgrades.

[lame0]

Literally the only reason I think Gremlins are a consideration is because of Sammy LaCroix and the Sow. 

If you give her poisoned Fate you basically have a ca 6 18 inch range 4 damage slow out of her every turn.(pretty nice) 

Sow is great in combination with Big Z letting you obey a model to shoot or charge the sow and paralyze it. (Terrifying (all) 12). Also it gets a free attack if an enemy fails a wp duel within 6 of it. Great damage spread and an 11 inch charge range which is 2 more than nekima.

Also both these models can summon extra models if given the chance so that's an option. 

List I was looking at was basically:

50 SS Gremlins Crew
Zoraida + 4 Pool
 - Powerful Control (2)
 - Tarot Reading (2)
 - Crystal Ball (2)
Sammy LaCroix (7)
 - Poisoned Fate (1)
 - Do Over (1)
Burt Jebsen (7) 
 - Dirty Cheater (1)
Gremlin Taxidermist (7) / Francois depending 
 - Dirty Cheater (1)
The Sow (8)
Lightning Bug (5)
Will O' The Wisp (3)
Will O' The Wisp (3)

 One last thing to note with the charge obey is that in most cases (neverborn or gremlin) it is better to use the obey to target an enemy model to charge it's comrade because it puts the model out of position and does the attacks (which really means it works out to being 3-4 ap in your favor). 

[Ludvig]

You might not always have the cards to beat an opponent, I've had an 8 as my highest card plenty of times despite various card tricks. If you have a hand on fire it's a pretty good use of a single ap.

[I'm a Teapot!]

I have to say that I experienced the bewitch into obey against enemies be super effective in terms of ap- and card management but the positioning of models can be negative or positive depending on the situation.  ive charged an enemy's yasunori back into his lines but he, due to pushes and fast, could easily charge any of my models in the following turn. If I had charged my own beater and left yas engaged to fingers I'd have denied yas basicly a whole activation in the next turn. 

One of my best  neverborn zoraida moments was obeying people onto a hungry land marker after they had already activated, giving them 2 hazardous terrain dmg flips 1 for moving in and 1 for activating there in the next turn. Which is pretty easy to set up. 

In gremlins things like paralyzing an important model with the doll or even a master with a nurse or the emissary and then killing it with mancha rocha via trigger is super fun but soooo much setup. Moon Shinobis are brilliant vs ressers but kind of meh against everyone else. nurses give them hardcore steroids but have to be played with activations controll and carefull positioning. I think gremlins can provide a lot of fun but neverborn are more effective. The sow is definitly something I have to try out. 

 

[lame0]

On 9/27/2017 at 12:40 PM, Ludvig said:

You might not always have the cards to beat an opponent, I've had an 8 as my highest card plenty of times despite various card tricks. If you have a hand on fire it's a pretty good use of a single ap.

Yeah true. But what I mean is that since you can only make a model charge once per turn with obey then I feel most of the time I'd like to use it to it's fullest. In Gremlins I feel it's best to use on an enemy because most other crews take higher point models so to negate them + do damage is usually the way.(it's good to take strong models like Burt & the sow that can highly benefit off of it either way.)

[Bumpasses]

On 7/31/2017 at 11:14 PM, Vorschlag said:

In neverborn you get some nasty tricks like fears given form when the doll activates ( as it hems when it's summoned)

I don't understand this, please explain.

[Vorschlag]

When a doll is summoned it immediately casts hem. 

If you summon the doll inside models auras which cause damage in this case fears given form - you hand out damage passively without spending activation points.

You can still condition spam before the doll activates and fails the test to suffer damage if you so choose but I'd normally build for damage or conditions with only minimal cross over.

 

[Bumpasses]

22 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

When a doll is summoned it immediately casts hem. 

If you summon the doll inside models auras which cause damage in this case fears given form - you hand out damage passively without spending activation points.

You can still condition spam before the doll activates and fails the test to suffer damage if you so choose but I'd normally build for damage or conditions with only minimal cross over.

 

New to Z

didn't realize this... So awesome.

 

Ty

[Vorschlag]

She also has a spam build that "can" paralyze upto 4 models a turn via doll abuse but will only win games if that helps.

Paralyze is so easy with Zoraida making Mancha Roja b/s with her, I refuse to run it because I would abuse it and npe players...not a good look for a henchman.

Her main paralyzes are neverborn but there are always a few options.

[Bumpasses]

So

Forgive my timing ignorance here, but

If the doll has to "immediately"

Hem something,

But you dropped/summoned the doll in an aura 

Which happens/resolves first?

 

-B

[Vorschlag]

Fgf (fears given form) only affects models which activate within their ml range.

When the doll is summoned it immediately casts hem but isn't "activating".

If you activate the doll it will take the tests so don't do so if the hem failed (where avoidable) unless you just spounge the activation for scrap.

Otherwise you can paralyze the doll etc and then activate, if this is done in the right order -with vasilisa she can then obey the doll to hem to a new target and as paralyzed is removed when the doll activates you can re paralyze it.

Otherwise activating within 2 fgf ranges "should" passively cause 6 damage to the hem target and provide 1 scrap for summons via Weaver. 

 

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Bumpasses said:

So

Forgive my timing ignorance here, but

If the doll has to "immediately"

Hem something,

But you dropped/summoned the doll in an aura 

Which happens/resolves first?

 

-B

Whilst Vorschlag has probably answered the question you were really asking, summoned into an aura doesn't count as entering or activating, the aura effects would normally happen first (so an Aura that gave you a lower Ca, would apply to that Hem that happens "immediately). 

[Tickle Monster]

I have found that Zoraida teamed up with the mysterious Emissary can shred enemy crews to bits but struggle to deal with the enemy master as neither obey nor hex work on them. With this in mind I like to have at least one big beater model such as Nekima or the Hooded Rider to put the pain on them in the late stages of the game. 

I play Zoraida as a neverborn master but I would bear this in mind if I were to play her as a gremlin as well. 

[Clement]

Zoraida and the Lucky Emissary play very well together also.  Not only is Zoraida's conflux upgrade fantastic, but the Emissary's ability tp paralyze an already slow model works *perfectly* with the voodoo doll.

I would agree with Tickle Monster though, you really want to make sure to bring a real beater or two to take care of or at least delay the enemy master.  For Gremlins I would look at most of the standard beaters (Burt, Franc, etc.), but I'd also throw Mancha Roja into consideration.  He appreciates the help getting set up for charges, and can take advantage of the paralyze the rest of the crew is giving out.  Mama Z is also surprisingly good at keeping him safe.