How the hell do you stop Zipp with Ressers?!

[Nazaradine]

Hey all. Just had a game against Zipp using Reva. It did not go well...

Before I get into it, here's the rough breakdown: 

50ss, Headhunter, scheme pool - claim jump, undercover entourage, leave your mark, dig their graves, mark for death. 

My crew: Reva (guises of death, litany of the fallen, maniacal laugh), Toshiro (command the graves), Bete Noire (my little helper), Forgotten Marshall, 2x Shieldbearer, 2x Crooligan. 

Schemes: Claim jump, leave your mark

His crew (from memory): Zipp, Earl Burns, Fingers, The First Mate, Ronin, Jetpack LaCroix girl (?), 2x Iron Skeeter. 

Schemes: Claim jump, undercover entourage. 

Now I'm pretty new to Malifaux and it's only my second game with Reva. My positioning wasn't great, I had no idea what his crew could do and my luck was abysmal, both in hand draw and flipping (I hit an Iron Skeeter four times with Reva and failed to wound it once for example). My game plan was using the crooligans for claim jumping  (which admittedly I stupidly set up on opposite sides of the board, completely exposed) while using Reva's early corpse candle through guises to get into his back field early with Bete, then tandeming in the Forgotten Marshall for leave your mark/disruption/killing, while the Toshiro/Shieldbearer bubble/Reva wrecked face for headhunter.  

I quit end of turn four, had we played it out to the end I would have lost like 10-3. 

I could not get anywhere near his crew. Their mobility was crazy and if I did manage to get into melee, he just bounced away. I left my crooligans out to dry to be honest but I didn't know they could get hunted down so quickly and they died after dropping one scheme marker between them (which Fingers then got rid of). Bete did nothing except die before she could do anything (she got into melee twice; first being gibbed by the ronin, the second pushed away and slowed by The First Mate who then leapt to the other side of a building, just to add insult to injury).  The Forgotten Marshall managed to score twice but aside from a few ineffective shots did nothing. Reva was effectively sidelined by the threat of having pianos dropped on her. Fingers scored about 7vp on his own before tying up half my crew by getting into engagement with them and going double defensive and bouncing away if anything did get through. It was a horror show. 

What could I have done? 

[catbat07]

I play a lot of games against Zipp. Trust me, you can't deal with him until you drain cards and/or soulstones, which requires way more effort than it is worth. As for the rest of your crew, don't make the mistake of playing Headhunter like you actually have to kill things. In headhunter, it doesn't matter who's head you pick up. Often, by killing the opposing crew, you're in fact giving them VP, especially if you do this from afar.

The rest of his crew seems to be the problem. The first mate is definitely annoying, but never particularly hard to take down. Remember that he only has eight wounds, and every soulstone spent is a soulstone less that Zipp can use. I haven't personally played against Fingers, but from my understanding he is under the threat of relying to much on soulstones to stay alive. As for the Skeeters, they are so easy to take down that you often don't have to worry about them, and both Merris and Earl suffer from the same problem. As for the Pianos, why does Reva care? She heals lots, and even if she does get killed, it's not the end of the world. Always play Malifaux for the VP, never play it for the "I've killed more than you, so I win."

in the end, every master in Malifaux can feel ridiculously hard to play against, but as long as you keep your eyes on the prize, you'll come out on top.

[Eorek]

Isn't Carrion emissary a good pick for reva against gremlins? 
Popping out shards and then first thing that happens is reva killing of a mid tier gremlin(such as an iron skeeter) with the zombie it spawns. 

Fingers is a god in headhunter if you don't stop him, He is though not that hard to kill for his cost, especially if you pin him down with either making him stuck between your models or anna lovelace... speaking of...

Anna lovelace is really good against most of zipps crew movement shenanigans. 
Think it makes skeeters unable to ferry models within her aura. they can't move earl around with other skypirates... zipp can't use grab a rope, First mate can't leap, fingers can't squeel. Deffo a model worth looking into getting. (* I don't actually have annas card so I might be wrong on exactly what place/push etc she prevents)

 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

On 23.07.2017 at 0:16 AM, Nazaradine said:

What could I have done?

nothing. you've been playing against gremlins.

;-)

Jokes aside, I would bring some movement tricks for sure. I find a dead doxy an indispensable model in every crew. Anna as a counter for his movement tricks also sounds legit.
Zipp and the First Mate make interact-based schemes hard to score, and since Reva is pretty mobile I would go for Undercover Entourage.
I don't know what the terrain and deployment were, but with that scheme pool I would rather hire one necropunk to score claim jump or two crooligans to mark his models for death (although Zipp may disrupt that easily). Note that I try to avoid Claim Jump with Standard Deployment.
My Lil' Helper on Bete may not work particularily well, since her damage spread is low and it's difficult for her to kill most models in one activation, so she basically gets no/not enough protection from it.

If Undercover Entourage is in the pool and your opponents plays Zipp, you may safely assume that he will try to accomplish this particular scheme. It means s/he will play Zipp safely, so you can take some advantage from it. Moreover, Zipp's survival will be crucial for your opponent, so you might consider putting some pressure on the Sky Pirate.

Having said that, it is obvious that the strategy and scheme pool heavily favourized Zipp over your crew.

[Nazaradine]

11 hours ago, Eorek said:

Anna lovelace is really good against most of zipps crew movement shenanigans. 

Thanks for the tip - I checked her out and although she definitely warrants a closer look, she doesn't seem to block walk actions. I think I need a Penangalan...

[Nazaradine]

9 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

nothing. you've been playing against gremlins.

Ha! Yeah it sure felt like that. Thank you for the other tips though! 

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, Nazaradine said:

Thanks for the tip - I checked her out and although she definitely warrants a closer look, she doesn't seem to block walk actions. I think I need a Penangalan...

Walk actions are blocked by your disengaging strikes.

Shouldn't Reva have tons of corpses to hit the gremlins through if all your stuff dies?

[ForeverCurious42]

I believe Strength of the Fallen is not counted for on disengaging strikes.

 

That aside I really see this as more of models choices being sub par in headhunter. I agree with catbat07 in that headhunter is not about killing the opponents crew but picking up the heads. Reva is neither bad nor outstanding in headhunter, she can use all her tricks (mobility to pick up heads, killing things to make heads, killing important targets) for this strategy but you may end up wanting her to do everything. Picking minions that are AP efficient (nercopunks, belles, nanny, and Yin stick-out to me) are the best bet in this pool.

[Eorek]

13 hours ago, Nazaradine said:

Thanks for the tip - I checked her out and although she definitely warrants a closer look, she doesn't seem to block walk actions. I think I need a Penangalan...

yea more to lock zipp down so you can kill him, Say you bring anna close to him after he activated and then have reva ghost him to death.

[Paddywhack]

21 hours ago, Nazaradine said:

Thanks for the tip - I checked her out and although she definitely warrants a closer look, she doesn't seem to block walk actions. I think I need a Penangalan...

No, she doesn't block Walk actions, but she shuts down all the taxiing and other movement shenanigans they can do. Iron Skeeters that can't hand out free movement to other models will really hurt his play style. She stops all enemy places, pushes and moves (I think - not sure on moves without the card). And an 8" bubble on her 40mm base is a pretty big area. i don't have Zipps card, but it might stop some of his abilities as well or if not his then doesn't Earl have a place effect. 

She also has a min 3 ranged attack and a ranged push style attack of her own that can throw off his placement even more. 

With Reva, use the mobility option and just charge fingers. She should be able to kill him handily. 

[Je ne c'est LaCroix]

Zipp is built for movement mischief and is relatively less destructive than some other Gremlin Masters. That crew in general is relatively peaceful for Grems, Fingers, Merris, Earl can cause you no harm, Skeeters and First Mate can do a bit, Ronin has a decent sword which she'll stick in herself after a couple of pops and Zipp's pianos were probably the biggest pain threat. Only Zipp or Fingers can really hold out under extended pressure. Sounds like a bunch of fast-moving scheme-running pilferers who were intent on stealing other people's heads rather than nobley creating their own.

Pianos don't ignore cover and they randomize - so get Reva in the middle of the action and murder everything with glorious charges, Beyond Death Upgrade (instead of Guises) would help to keep up with the movement and murder a runner or get to Zipp who's trying as thatlatinspeakingguy mentioned to Undercover Entourage - every time it's in the pool. That only really leaves Zipp with Up We Go to mess with her, which is Ml3 vs Ht and Reva is Ht3 so she can likely stand up to it/he won't even try

Carrion (Conflux), Anna (Rush of Magic) and Philip & the Nanny (Lost Knowledge) all help with improving your cards, Philip would give Fingers a run for his dirty money in HH with both Chatty and can also flip enemy scheme markers into corpse markers. Get those good cards in and most of that crew goes down easy, as long as you can catch them (Belle). Anna's Vortex also could potentially deny heads or add to your own movement tricks

Valedictorian might make a good Zipp or First Mate hunter, flight, shuts down triggers, add Decaying Aura for stopping Soulstone protection

Carrion wall and Zombie could shut down Fingers escape routes and he couldn't even kill the Zombie. I tied up an Arcane Emissary for almost an entire game with a wall and a Zombie, Joss had to lumber over to help the dumb bull out Turn 4

Earl is there mostly to add Masks to Zipp and make him uber-manoeuvrable with free walks after attacks, so pressurize Zipp early turn so that he has to activate first and doesn't get Earl's assistance. Still keep an eye on Earl (ie murder him) because he's a Minion so will be dropped off somewhere to drop some schemes. Pressure the cards/stones because they'll create tough choices, Earl needs Masks for Zipp, Fingers needs Masks/Stones for squeal, Merris drops a card to drop a bomb, Skeeters want Tomes to give Fast, Skeeters and Zipp want to avoid certain triggers, First Mate's plans often assume the availability of Leap which he will need to cheat in sometimes

[Adran]

On 22/07/2017 at 11:16 PM, Nazaradine said:

 

Now I'm pretty new to Malifaux and it's only my second game with Reva. My positioning wasn't great, I had no idea what his crew could do and my luck was abysmal, both in hand draw and flipping (I hit an Iron Skeeter four times with Reva and failed to wound it once for example). My game plan was using the crooligans for claim jumping  (which admittedly I stupidly set up on opposite sides of the board, completely exposed) while using Reva's early corpse candle through guises to get into his back field early with Bete, then tandeming in the Forgotten Marshall for leave your mark/disruption/killing, while the Toshiro/Shieldbearer bubble/Reva wrecked face for headhunter.  

This is probably a good summation of your main problem with this match up. Playing a Master you don't know well against a master you don't know at all, I would expect to really struggle. Adding bad hands to that, and a general lack of malifaux experience, 10-3 isn't that bad a loss. 

I'm not going to tell you you should pick different models to stop his crew. Thats not to say that different models wouldn't' have ruined his plan, but you don't know what he is going to pick when you pick your crew. 

1 Zipps crew is highly mobile. You leave anything out anywhere along, and a lot of the crew can probably get to it. As such claim jump and leave your mark are not a great choice to go for as he can easily deny them just by moving near to you. . Add in the first mate and fingers who both really want you to place scheme markers, and you have almost 0 chance of scoring these schemes.  He has picked a good crew to stop you getting any easy points in this game. I would probably undercover entourage Reva, and mark for death. 

2 Play to your schemes. spend the first couple of turns trying to mark all his models. Feel free to make opportunistic attacks where you can, but look to the mission. Support your forces, and only kill him when you expect to be able to get the head marker, or can score marked for death. I might normally suggest putting down dummy scheme markers to suggest other schemes but with both the first mate and Fingers capable of usign your scheme markers , you are just giving resources to your opponent.  

3 Pick your kill targets. Its hard to keep all his crew away from corpse markers when you have the corpse candles. Don't rush to kill your own candles just to put corpses down, but wait until a vulnerable model has moved, and then try and get a corpse marker (candle) near it. Its not too hard for reva to kill the ronin, Earl, Merris or an iron skeetar on her own each turn. But be careful about the head. If you think you can get the head its great. If you can't protect it from your opponent, then maybe its not the right time to kill them. 

4 Protect your forces. Don't leave unsupported models that aren't doing anything in that area. They are just easy heads for your opponents.