Reckless = OP?

[lame0]

Well from what I see Gremlins are either misrepresented or they are pretty balanced. Funny enough I think that the 10t difference between us & uk show that the game is balanced enough that 10t can go from bottom of the barrel to the top based on who's playing them. If Alex played neverborn (which he is for at least this week) I think we might be asking for them to be Cuddled instead.

[trikk]

40 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Superb work, once again!

I wonder if the host could be made aware of the zombies being taken into account for the faction averages?

We could also have avg for Masters category

[Bazlord_Prime]

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Superb work, once again!

I wonder if the host could be made aware of the zombies being taken into account for the faction averages?

Thanks!

Yeah - it would be a good thing to point out to them. I'll set about trying to find the contact details.

[Bazlord_Prime]

10 hours ago, trikk said:

Except it doesn't contradict anything I said. I said Arcanists should definitely take a hit before Gremlins. The data seems to support that. 

UK ranking is missing Joel Henry I believe that had around 390 points IIRC and was a Gremlin player but wanted to be removed from the rankings. 

Well, you did say the following:

On 7/21/2017 at 1:40 AM, trikk said:

OK. Gremlins have highest tournament point avg in UK, US and PL.

But I get that you only asserted that after being pressed to clarify your position - it wasn't your original assertion.

As for Joel Henry, fair enough. But there may be a lot of other great players around the world who aren't included in the US, UK and Polish rankings, so we can't really go down that path.  I get it though - Joel's score did exist, and then was removed.  But honestly - we're done here.  The stats don't back up any assertions that Gremlins are anything more than quite well balanced in tournament play, as far as the relatively small sample sizes can be trusted to be fair representations.

The idea that perhaps Reckless should instead grant "Fast" seems at first blush to be a pretty un-disruptive way of going about changing Reckless. I don't see that any negative interactions would arise from that, since you'd take the Wd at the start of the activation, then use the Fast during the activation, so there'd be little to no issue with anything that can capitalise on an enemy's Fast condition (Void Wretches), and it would be used up before it could be removed by anything, right?

Are there any models who put out standing  that prevent Conditions from being gained by enemy models?

[Myyrä]

7 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Are there any models who put out standing  that prevent Conditions from being gained by enemy models?

No, but condition immunity aura would be a cool ability. 

[wizuriel]

Wouldn't the easier errata be to change fast so that it doesn't stack with reckless (easier to errata that since it is a reference from just the main rulebook, as opposed to all the models with Reckless on them).

 

 

[lame0]

7 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Wouldn't the easier errata be to change fast so that it doesn't stack with reckless (easier to errata that since it is a reference from just the main rulebook, as opposed to all the models with Reckless on them).

 

 

Personally I don't like the reckless = fast change. It just makes our model pool even smaller making Sparks, the iron Skeeter & merc aionus just bad. The only one that sees much play anyways is the iron Skeeter and that's because it gives the other model two super walks and then an extra ap so the model hitching a ride kind of gets 6.5 ap of which 2.5 are nimble and 4 are w.e you want. Normally what makes this fair is that half way the opponent can react but companion Francois leaving no gap between the 6.5 ap which then starts feeling way to painful.

Personally I'd give the iron skeeter "Whining Wings" this model is not considered friendly for the companion ability. This resolves the biggest issue with fast in faction without cuddling the models that already have niche uses into Oblivion.

Right now it just surprised me how much people are willing to just destroy some of our few played models. I'd much rather attack the specific problematic combo than never see what are 3 really cool models ever again. (And because of our internal balance issue that is 99% the case.)

Also I don't mind seeing Burt and more mercs in general taken if the other factions can deal with the cost increase and make them better (ex: easy access to fast + debt to the guild). I think that's thematic to the game and makes it interesting.

[Nikodemus]

Reckless+Fast stacking gets pretty silly with Guild (Nellie Fast+Debt) and Ten Thunders (Fast+Recalled Training). Admittedly that's Burt being silly, not Reckless as a whole being silly.

[Adran]

24 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

Reckless+Fast stacking gets pretty silly with Guild (Nellie Fast+Debt) and Ten Thunders (Fast+Recalled Training). Admittedly that's Burt being silly, not Reckless as a whole being silly.

Reckless and fast stacking has a lot of potential to get silly. It makes model buffs stronger the more times they are used.  . Trust me I'm a fan of the double flurry Bishop. I'll have to try that under Debt someday.

 

Lame0 how is this making the model pool smaller? Unless the only models taken are those that are reckless then there is still a place for granting fast to other models in your crew. And you are still going to spend those points somewhere. I would probably still consider the Skeetar taxi for reckless models, and if I flipped the fast Trigger, its just saved me a wound. 

 

[lame0]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

Reckless and fast stacking has a lot of potential to get silly. It makes model buffs stronger the more times they are used.  . Trust me I'm a fan of the double flurry Bishop. I'll have to try that under Debt someday.

 

Lame0 how is this making the model pool smaller? Unless the only models taken are those that are reckless then there is still a place for granting fast to other models in your crew. And you are still going to spend those points somewhere. I would probably still consider the Skeetar taxi for reckless models, and if I flipped the fast Trigger, its just saved me a wound. 

 

It is in fact the case that the only non support ht 1 models other than totems and stuffed piglets taken are reckless. Additionally the only good fighting models that don't have reckless are McTavish and Gracie. All the other non reckless models are support pieces.

These are 97% of the models used competitively outside of one off things. 

Reckless

 Bayou gremlin, Lightning bug, slop hauler, Merris, Swine cursed, Francois, Burt, Raphael, Taxidermist, Trixie & Fingers.

Non reckless

Skeeter, Stuffed piglets, Early burns,  old cranky, Sammy, Iron skeeter, The First Mate, McTavish & Gracie. 

Of the non reckless models three give themselves ap through other ways (McTavish, Gracie, & the first mate) one gives other models ap (Iron skeeter) one carries an upgrade for masters (encouragement & oooo Glowy)  and the rest are totems and/or are activation control units. 

The reckless models are most of our damage & scheme running. Unfortunately this is how lopsided Gremlins are at the moment and there is no real easy fix.

Honestly the only ht 1 non leader models that would want to go into the thick of it are reckless. The iron skeeter is an amplifier unit without the added fast I'd rather find/lose a stone and take a lighting bugs, swine cursed or a taxidermist that can actually do stuff by giving itself ap.

[Bazlord_Prime]

7 hours ago, lame0 said:

It is in fact the case...

That's a level of certainty that must be backed up with data. If however you meant "I'm fairly certain that...", then sure.

7 hours ago, lame0 said:

These are 97% of the models used competitively outside of one off things. 

Okay - where does "97%" come from? That's oddly precise. If you've got data for which models are taken, by every player, in every tournament worldwide, then you can state the above. And you can share the data - they'd be pretty interesting! 

[Adran]

I don't believe your numbers, you've missed out Piglets and Ronin. Ronin alone have to be 5 % of the competatievly used models in Gremlins. (Source. Joel Henry has used at least 1  Ronin in every list for a year, and has played over 30 gremlin tournament games in the past year.) (I'd also say silurids and nurses for Gremraida probably feature) 

Although I will confess that my brief look into the gremlin lists the general theory you are suggesting is fairly common. 

[lame0]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't believe your numbers, you've missed out Piglets and Ronin. Ronin alone have to be 5 % of the competatievly used models in Gremlins. (Source. Joel Henry has used at least 1  Ronin in every list for a year, and has played over 30 gremlin tournament games in the past year.) (I'd also say silurids and nurses for Gremraida probably feature) 

Although I will confess that my brief look into the gremlin lists the general theory you are suggesting is fairly common. 

Ohh come on guys 97% was to reflect almost all. I don't really consider ulix all that competitive otherwise I could include him and some pigs. I even made a post with him + aionus....but he's not that great and falls flat vs the top 3 somer/Wong/Zipp. Major issue being that he's pretty easy to kill, is great vs some masters and terrible vs others and that everything he summons goes crazy without careful placement. Is he fun? Hell yes. Would I use him at a tournament that I want to do well in? Probably not. We can use other masters but in basically every case one of the three bigs are better equipped to deal with it.

Ronin are not in faction models otherwise I'd probably include aionus and lazarus for the occasional list as well. Im including what makes up most lists if they are in faction and you make it seem like im out of bounds. If you prefer I'll put 90%. 

Really more than anything im trying to emphasize that Gremlins are mostly about playing around our reckless models and masters with support from the rest. 

My post stems from if I would see an iron skeeter on the table in a competitive environment if reckless gave fast. Currently as the game is I don't believe so. I also wouldn't see aionus and Sparks would continue to see the shelf. Which again when looking at what most lists are comprised of removes (including mercs and totems) 8.33% (2/24) of our selection.

If I told any faction that a change would make 8.33% of your competitive models not competitive I would think it be an issue. Especially since they are niche support pieces.

Also Alex schmid the best gremlin player NA said it himself in one of his videos he could go and win a tournament with 20 models (6 being bayou gremlin for somer) and not feel like he was lacking anything. (I assume that list is somer, Wong, Zipp, 6x bayou, lightning bug, Trixie, Burt, Franc, slop hauler, 2x swine cursed, iron skeeter, McTavish, skeeter, fingers). Probably in addition to those he'd be missing a few stuffed piglets and a Taxidermist. But 25 models or 16 different models and I'd be comfortable too.

 

[Adran]

You're currently discussing it with the 2 people in the thread who spent time doing research into the topic to make the numbers they say actually mean something . And also checking up on the numbers that other people claimed. If you're not going to do the research, its probably better to not make up numbers.

Just say almost all. 

And despite the common internet group think, the other 5 gremlin masters do appear. If you look at logfaux (filtered for 2017gg), Ophelia and Zoriada both have higher win percentages than Sommer and Wong, but fewer games. 

I see your point about how it would reduce the iron skeetar use. I'm always thought the free movement they gave would be enough to hire them, but I can believe that it might not be enough for most people. 

 

[Omenbringer]

21 hours ago, lame0 said:

Reckless

 Bayou gremlin, Lightning bug, slop hauler, Merris, Swine cursed, Francois, Burt, Raphael, Taxidermist, Trixie & Fingers.

The reckless models are most of our damage & scheme running. Unfortunately this is how lopsided Gremlins are at the moment and there is no real easy fix.

3

Just for accuracies sake, the Bayou Gremlin's are not Reckless, they are Drunk and Reckless. This is a huge difference as it effectively costs half their wounds to gain that extra AP. This means that they can't use it next turn unless they heal (yes, yes we know Gremlin's have ways of healing but those methods aren't free or infinite in range). It also means that they are highly fragile.

[lame0]

44 minutes ago, Adran said:

You're currently discussing it with the 2 people in the thread who spent time doing research into the topic to make the numbers they say actually mean something . And also checking up on the numbers that other people claimed. If you're not going to do the research, its probably better to not make up numbers.

Just say almost all. 

And despite the common internet group think, the other 5 gremlin masters do appear. If you look at logfaux (filtered for 2017gg), Ophelia and Zoriada both have higher win percentages than Sommer and Wong, but fewer games. 

I see your point about how it would reduce the iron skeetar use. I'm always thought the free movement they gave would be enough to hire them, but I can believe that it might not be enough for most people. 

 

The other masters do appear and I guess I don't know the ratio but from Alex's review of uts I guess it seems that only the top three were played there. Something I find interesting is that at least we have a top three. Many other factions it's pretty clear that they have maybe one or two that are the best  (also his explanation of the break down is I think very valuable). I guess at least we have a couple of choices for masters even if that means our crew selection is narrow.

[Adran]

I unfortunately missed the event. 

From the Arcane resevoir coverage, (doesn't have all masters, and whilst Zoraida was picked several times, I can't say if it was ever for gremlins)

Round 1 had at least 9 gremlins 4 wong, 3 somer 2 zipp and 

Round 2 9 gremlins 4 zipp, 2 somer, 2 Mah Tucket and 1 wong. 

Round 3 12 Gremlin 3 wong, 4 Zipp, 2 Somer, 2 mah Tucket and 1 ulix

Round 4 13 grmlin 4 wong, 3 somer, 4 zipp 1 Mah Tucket and 1 Ulix

Round 5 11 gremlin 4 Somer, 3 Tucket, 1 ulix, 2 Zipp 1 Wong

Over all in the data I can find

Wong 13

Zipp 16

Somer 14

Ulix 3

Mah Tucket 8

(Brewmaster was used as TT at least once)

Now just realised you said UTS which I haven't a clue what that is, not ITC. (Malifaux internation team competition) Oh well the above breakdown might note be at all what you were talking about. But I've done it now. 

[trikk]

UTS os a team tournament in US. The Mah Tucket was @Math Mathonwy I believe

[Ludvig]

If reckles gave fast it wouldn't necessarily mean skeeters would never get taken, they would just get taken along with the non reckless models since that would bring those up to the level of the reckless onrs which wouldn't be a bad thing in my eyes. 

Apart from that I'll try to keep quiet. Redoing an entire faction seems needlessly complicated unless they are currently causing major issues which I'm not sure they are. I'm more of the "have a look at it when you do the inevitable edition change" stance.

[Myyrä]

2 hours ago, trikk said:

UTS os a team tournament in US. The Mah Tucket was @Math Mathonwy I believe

He wasn't the only one, and I also believe he didn't think that was very competitive choice. Considering how well he did, he definitely doesn't any more. 

[spooky_squirrel]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

If reckles gave fast it wouldn't necessarily mean skeeters would never get taken, they would just get taken along with the non reckless models since that would bring those up to the level of the reckless onrs which wouldn't be a bad thing in my eyes. 

Apart from that I'll try to keep quiet. Redoing an entire faction seems needlessly complicated unless they are currently causing major issues which I'm not sure they are. I'm more of the "have a look at it when you do the inevitable edition change" stance.

Those are two thoughts that I am inclined to follow as well.
Gremlin faction models that give out fast would target non-reckless Gremlins or Gremlins that cannot afford the wound loss. Liked the extra AP with Roosters? Give them fast. Need a beater to charge from inside the Walking Rage Machine aura and want an extra AP without losing two wounds during your own activation to your own abilities? There's something that would love some Fast action. With Reckless giving out Fast, you wouldn't see a 7-8 stone model putting out Nekima (13 stone base) levels of damage during their activation, unless you flipped the Luck trigger on the last two attacks and either died or lost Stilts.
You'd also see more non-reckless models on the table. Seems like a good thing for the game to have.

Redoing a faction would be using a chainsaw where you need a scalpel. Especially since it does not look like the faction as a whole is a problem. If you're going to use Sebastian for surgery, save it for when that's the surgery you want to do. Like edition updates.
If we're talking about health-of-the-game-in-the-current-edition, then if there truly is a problem that hurts the game it needs to be examined and scalpeled out. Wyrd has been good about surgical solutions from what I've seen, especially when compared to other game systems.

[LunarSol]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

If reckles gave fast it wouldn't necessarily mean skeeters would never get taken, they would just get taken along with the non reckless models since that would bring those up to the level of the reckless onrs which wouldn't be a bad thing in my eyes. 

Apart from that I'll try to keep quiet. Redoing an entire faction seems needlessly complicated unless they are currently causing major issues which I'm not sure they are. I'm more of the "have a look at it when you do the inevitable edition change" stance.

Reckless giving out fast doesn't actually do anything... right?  The way fast works doesn't really allow a model to give it to themselves.  I think the only way to make it work mechanically is for Reckless to make models immune to Fast.

[trikk]

11 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Reckless giving out fast doesn't actually do anything... right?  The way fast works doesn't really allow a model to give it to themselves.  I think the only way to make it work mechanically is for Reckless to make models immune to Fast.

It does. Same as Melee Expert. You get fast at the beginning of the activation and then at the end its removed.

[Gnomezilla]

51 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Reckless giving out fast doesn't actually do anything... right?  The way fast works doesn't really allow a model to give it to themselves.  I think the only way to make it work mechanically is for Reckless to make models immune to Fast.

"When this model activates" must come before the model generates AP or else Tap Power does not work at all (instead of just not allowing an already slowed construct to be slowed again for another dose of fast) (sorry, gremmies, I don't know of any example in-faction for you).

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

Reckless giving out fast doesn't actually do anything... right?  The way fast works doesn't really allow a model to give it to themselves.  I think the only way to make it work mechanically is for Reckless to make models immune to Fast.

If you were to try and give it to yourself during your activation's "Take Actions" step, it would do nothing. However, referencing the little rulebook (page 33 in the pdf):

Quote

When a player Activates one of her controlled models the Activation follows these steps in order:
1. Resolve “Activation” Effects
2. Generate AP
3. Take Actions
4. End Activation

We see that we resolved "At the start of this model's Activation" effects before we Generate AP.
So at the start of Activation, Reckless Joe goes Reckless, gains Fast.
Having no other Activation effects, Reckless Joe generates AP (standard AP +1 for Fast).

 

So in this regard, if Reckless were to grant Fast (the condition), it would have the same effect as Reckless without being stackable with Fast.