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Reckless = OP?

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16 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Personally I think Hunting Party sould be as 'Always Available' scheme which would made all low cost-high number of models bit more challenging.

 

FIRST change the abilities of Wind gamin and stuffed piglets who make the scheme really frustrating and then make it always available ;)

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1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Personally I think Hunting Party sould be as 'Always Available' scheme which would made all low cost-high number of models bit more challenging.

As for Roosters - I'm kind of surprised why they disappeared so suddenly as IMO they are still very good models. High Wk and 1AP charge makes them great enemy scheme-catchers and with their high Wk they can do schemes reasonably good as well. I think people just got used to have them this Reckless and now they can't (don't want to) play them anymore. 

I think gremlin players have a problem that they compare everything to Bayou Gremlins and won't look further than that even though other models have more synergy or do more or,are less squishy. I think that same menatality has transferred to the rooster rider. They look at what it was and then compare it to the bayou gremlins and don't give it a chance to see how functional it still is.

my opponents seem to claim about bayou two card more than r ck

ess but I don't think I really abuse reckless seeing I like some more stable models.

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1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Personally I think Hunting Party sould be as 'Always Available' scheme which would made all low cost-high number of models bit more challenging.

As for Roosters - I'm kind of surprised why they disappeared so suddenly as IMO they are still very good models. High Wk and 1AP charge makes them great enemy scheme-catchers and with their high Wk they can do schemes reasonably good as well. I think people just got used to have them this Reckless and now they can't (don't want to) play them anymore. 

I think gremlin players have a problem that they compare everything to Bayou Gremlins and won't look further than that even though other models have more synergy or do more or,are less squishy. I think that same menatality has transferred to the rooster rider. They look at what it was and then compare it to the bayou gremlins and don't give it a chance to see how functional it still is.

my opponents seem to complain more about bayou two card more than reckless but I don't think I really abuse reckless seeing I like some more stable models.

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4 hours ago, trikk said:

You forgot to mention Sow and Gracie have Eat You Fill

The Sow doesn't have Eat Your Fill - she has the Eat Anything Trigger on her Furious Mauling which really, really isn't the same. Also, you might be the first person in the history of the game to complain about The Sow (Shot in the Rear is nasty with her but it's nasty with any big pig so I don't consider it a specific complaint about the Sow) :D 

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

FIRST change the abilities of Wind gamin and stuffed piglets who make the scheme really frustrating and then make it always available ;)

Stuffed Piglets don't affect Hunting Party in any way (they sac from the explosion only if they they haven't been killed (and yes, it's a bit badly worded)). Unless you mean voluntary exploding but that doesn't seem all that annoying.

I think that people who complain about Reckless because of Burt and Francois should complain about Burt and Francois and not about Reckless. Burt and Francois are some of the most broken models in the game. I also dislike the Lightning Bug's efficiency for healing Somer Summon fatigue but otherwise they are just really good, not borked, IMO.

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Also, you might be the first person in the history of the game to complain about The Sow (Shot in the Rear is nasty with her but it's nasty with any big pig so I don't consider it a specific complaint about the Sow) :D 

I`m pretty far for complaining about the Sow. I`m just saying that her defensive capabilities aren`t exactly low.

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This is kinda veering way off the topic of if reckless is op, but to add my thoughts on some of the scheme talk:

Claim Jump is a huge reason Reckless is so strong right now. A single model being able to take the always scheme is silly (and I think the same thing about anyone with a 0 movement trick or 3AP like 10T brothers). Making Hunting Party always imo is a bad idea. Suited Hunting Party made all-enforcer/henchman lists super common and I like what GG2017 has done to make minion crews a bit more common, as well as the fact that always having a marker scheme means there's always potential for a bluffing element with scheme markers. On the other hand, Dig Their Graves being the always scheme I think would have a similar effect of curtailing super model spam because it's a killy scheme but also an interacty scheme, so you want a good balance of survival, killing, and AP. I generally think it's the best new scheme of 2017, possibly any Gaining Grounds.

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I think it was more of Hunting Party and Show of Force which meant half crews were elite. If you would swap SoF for something else you have +- half games with elite crews and half with minion spam which IMHO seems like it should work.

 

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I have to say changing reckless shouldn't happen till at least GG 2018 because tbh it would be basically the biggest errata affecting most of a factions played models. I think that they should shift the value of extra ap for scoring by making better options for schemes.

I think the real heart of the issue is GG 2017 doesn't have enough viable schemes and most of the ones that you can get 3 points on constantly are ap / model count based. (Claim jump, leave your mark, search the ruins...etc)

At the end of the day I'd rather see a specific model Cuddled if it had to come down 2 it but honestly I hate Wyrd's approach thus far as they don't evenly take away power (ex: guild got totally bitch slapped last time).

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I think that the idea that Reckless should be errataed is a bit ludicrous. They've had it from the very start of the edition and everything in Gremlins has been balanced with the idea that they have it. I mean, this isn't a minor thing like Papa-in-the-Box or Rat Engine or something - this is one of the defining abilities of an entire Faction! Not something that slipped through the cracks during playtesting.

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2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that the idea that Reckless should be errataed is a bit ludicrous. They've had it from the very start of the edition and everything in Gremlins has been balanced with the idea that they have it. I mean, this isn't a minor thing like Papa-in-the-Box or Rat Engine or something - this is one of the defining abilities of an entire Faction! Not something that slipped through the cracks during playtesting.

Unfortunately I do not agree. There`s a lot of things that slipped through the cracks during playtesting. Hamelin is a great example. On the other hand we had Lucius. GG17 just showed how undercosted reckless is.

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12 minutes ago, trikk said:

Unfortunately I do not agree. There`s a lot of things that slipped through the cracks during playtesting. Hamelin is a great example. On the other hand we had Lucius. GG17 just showed how undercosted reckless is.

Hamelin and Lucius are individual Masters, not "Faction identity" -level abilities.

I also don't agree that "GG17 has shown how undercosted Reckless is". I tried finding the conversation on Facebook that started this but finding it is tricky to say the least and these sorts of debates on Facebook tend to be, in my experience, pretty worthless with two-sentence posts that tend to devolve into "l2p noob" in no time flat. So maybe I'm missing some context here, but there's stuff on other Factions that do Scheme marker Schemes just as trivially like Practiced Production or Titania or whatever.

All that said, I wouldn't be averse to changing Reckless into not stacking with Fast (but that's not GG17, it's Iron Skeeters).

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On 7/20/2017 at 9:49 AM, Nosilloc said:

...In my opinion this is a case of new players facing an experienced gremlin player...

That was explicitly not the case. This was a tournament's worth of experienced players noticing that, for that so few of them were playing Gremlins, there were a whole lot of gremlins seeing play.

On 7/20/2017 at 9:49 AM, Adran said:

Just to say

gremlins don't have low wp. Or below avergae stats (as long as you discount Ht as a stat)

:D

On 7/20/2017 at 10:21 AM, Dogmantra said:

Oh I forgot to mention my one exception to thinking Reckless is mostly fine. Francois, because Reckless in combination with Companion is absurd. There's a reason that you can only chain activate two models in 2nd edition, and trivially getting 6AP in a row with no opponent chance to respond is just silly (up to 8AP if you're willing to put some work in), especially on models like Francois. I think personally his Companion should go back to the old 1e style of being Companion: Kin, but a different change would be Reckless Melee, like melee expert but it costs a wound.

...I wasn't around for first edition, but I think you're right that unrestricted companion was streamlined but got overpowered. Either faction's iteration of the Flying Frankie Mechano-Taxi is silly. Even if Yasunori totally deserves it.

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

GG17 just showed how undercosted reckless is.

Given it hasn't been nearly this much of an issue until now, wouldn't it, at most, be:

GG17 just showed how undercosted reckless is for GG17.

 

Which really just translates into "GG17 favors a style of play that reckless plays into extremely well".

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9 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I tried finding the conversation on Facebook that started this but finding it is tricky to say the least and these sorts of debates on Facebook tend to be, in my experience, pretty worthless with two-sentence posts that tend to devolve into "l2p noob" in no time flat.

It's on A Wyrd Place, and it's a poll set up to ask what people think about "comping" Malifaux tournaments.

It's now been officially closed to contents "due to excessive trolling". Imagine that...

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I don't think Reckless is OP at all.

It isn't free, especially in the case of the Bayou Gremlin's harsher version. Gremlins were designed around it and have been from the beginning of the game (way back in first edition). removing reckless effects the Faction in a very detrimental way, at least as much as the other often mentioned OP healing ability of the Slop Hauler. There are far worse things in the game than Reckless.

The only thing I will say about the GG Strats and Schemes (and the Standard Encounter version of the game) is I have never considered Malifaux to be well suited to the Symmetric Strats and tightly restricted Scheme pools. Limited Strats and restricted Schemes pools don't balance a game they just force players to build to them. This is exacerbated further by the vast majority of Strats/Schemes being score-able within a very small portion of the actual board. Being competitive means building crews to achieve the "Always" available scheme and control the center of the board. Despite the wide range of models available many are just not suited to achieve these goals. The models that are, will appear OP when compared against models that aren't. As others have stated in this thread, perhaps the issues with Reckless (or other abilities/actions being called OP this year) are more attributable to the Gaining Grounds Strats and Schemes than the models themselves.

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42 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

There are far worse things in the game than Reckless.

Name one that can be found on more than two models. 

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6 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Name one that can be found on more than two models. 

Bayou Two Cards ;)

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41 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Name one that can be found on more than two models. 

Personally, as a gremlin player, I find Manipulative and Incorporeal to be far more of an issue. The former because it is a recurring effect (unlike a horror duel), the latter because my group tends to play with a lot of terrain (toward the high side of the recommendation) making it a very valuable ability. Aside from largely negating terrain for crews that feature a lot of it, Incorporeal also hampers damage output for normal attack actions (those using either Sh or Mi). For gremlins, this also has an effect on the Dumb Luck trigger (which is another of our often lamented faction benefits).

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I suspect that if when/if M3E rolls around Gremlins will see a change to Reckless. In the interim having easy access to activation control, plus 3 AP on the majority of their models makes a great many of the condition and scheme marker GG17 strats and schemes trivially easy for them. That's probably where all the renewed 'Gremlins are OP' talk is coming from these days.

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So a lot of you are complaining about this, especially @trikk, which is not the 1 time I see him having issues with the faction (I remember him being quite heated on the stuffed topic too), and I would ask to you:

have you ever played gremlins? And if so, How would you change it to make it "balanced"? because you can't simply remove an ability on which a faction is balanced on.

 what about other factions? They're fine like they are? 

Dirty cheater is too good and breaks the balance of the game? How about imbued energies? How about oath keeper? To not forget recalled training wiphich I find utterly horrible (and I play tt, so I use it too). Are they less powerful in their faction? 

Gremlins models are too cheap? Yeah, but Allison and phiona cost 8 and they could easily  cost 1 ss extra for how good they're.

Also I would add that gremlin players that win tournaments are not regular gremlin players, but really good and strong players, that happens to play gremlins. I don't think Alex Schmid started with gremlins because they were op since day one (and they weren't at all), and neither I would say that he's winning so much just because he plays gremlin. I'm from Italy and I won a fair share of events with gremlins, but I won my games by playing well my cards, not because of my faction. 

 I don't wanna sound disrespectful in any way, and if I do, I sincerely apologize, but I see way too many complaints, and not many solutions. I sincerely hate Victoria's, cause they promote a style of game I completely dislike, as well as Hamelin, which I find frustrating for the enemy to a point that makes the game not enjoyable, but I don't complain about them because they're what they're, and removing what makes them strong would simply put them in the dust.

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13 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

So a lot of you are complaining about this, especially @trikk, which is not the 1 time I see him having issues with the faction (I remember him being quite heated on the stuffed topic too), and I would ask to you:

have you ever played gremlins? And if so, How would you change it to make it "balanced"? because you can't simply remove an ability on which a faction is balanced on.

 what about other factions? They're fine like they are? 

Dirty cheater is too good and breaks the balance of the game? How about imbued energies? How about oath keeper? To not forget recalled training wiphich I find utterly horrible (and I play tt, so I use it too). Are they less powerful in their faction? 

Gremlins models are too cheap? Yeah, but Allison and phiona cost 8 and they could easily  cost 1 ss extra for how good they're.

Also I would add that gremlin players that win tournaments are not regular gremlin players, but really good and strong players, that happens to play gremlins. I don't think Alex Schmid started with gremlins because they were op since day one (and they weren't at all), and neither I would say that he's winning so much just because he plays gremlin. I'm from Italy and I won a fair share of events with gremlins, but I won my games by playing well my cards, not because of my faction. 

 I don't wanna sound disrespectful in any way, and if I do, I sincerely apologize, but I see way too many complaints, and not many solutions. I sincerely hate Victoria's, cause they promote a style of game I completely dislike, as well as Hamelin, which I find frustrating for the enemy to a point that makes the game not enjoyable, but I don't complain about them because they're what they're, and removing what makes them strong would simply put them in the dust.

I don`t have issues with Reckless as an ability. I have issues with some models with Reckless. Nobody is complaining about Firestarter but some Gremlin models are simply undercosted with it. Burt and Merris are pretty good examples. A good example is Rooster Riders, who lost it, aren`t almost ever taken in Gremlins but would be a pretty awesome pick in most other factions. Burt is everywhere.Today was a tournament with Tavish and Burt in a Shenlong crew (that did pretty well). Nellie picks both of them up pretty often too.

Dirty cheater isn`t "breaking the balance of the game". If some Gremlin models lost Reckless I wouldn`t have any issues with it. Only thing I dislike about Imbued Energies is the Myranda "exploit" giving you 4 cards. As for other factions I think Wind Gamin actually "break the game". As does Hamelin. Sandeep is IMHO way too good, as is Nellie but they aren`t really "broken".

A lot of models could probably be 1 stone cheaper or more expensive but TBH Phiona without a support master isn`t that awesome. She`s still very good but she doesn`t shine that much outside of Nellie/McCabe.

I also explicitly said "I don`t think Gremlins are unbeatable" and we all know Alex would probably have similar results with any other faction but the fact remains they have a lot of models that are "too good". I don`t know about you but you might be the same case. You could have won all the tournaments you won but the games could have been 10:6 instead of 10:3?

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8 hours ago, KrazyIvan said:

I suspect that if when/if M3E rolls around Gremlins will see a change to Reckless.

Entirely possible and indeed I would posit a similar hypothesis. However, it's worth noting that if/when Reckless changes, lots of other things will change as well so it's a bit meaningless when comparing to the current situation or the suggestions put forward in this thread.

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7 hours ago, trikk said:

I don`t have issues with Reckless as an ability.

Ummm...

On 7/20/2017 at 2:59 PM, trikk said:

Reckless should be once per game

:huh:

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