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LGBT characters?


dannydb

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1 hour ago, Seadhna said:

I'm surprised no-one mentioned Hoffman who is giving off a very Catholic-school-for-boys vibe

I think Hoffman spending all of his life as a polio cripple - and  in the shadow of a handsome, capable older brother - excuses him from much information about his sexuality, one way or the other.

6 hours ago, bertmac said:

Just showing it does exist in some form. 

 

I believe Ramos is essentially asexual or gay too as the girls in the star always try and fail to distract him.

It's specifically Cassandra who was trying to get a rise - literal or figurative - out of Ramos. While I always interpreted it as power being the only thing that arouses him, it could well be that in his younger days he preferred XY over XX. The only possible counter argument is the dance with Rusty Alyce in one of the early Wyrd Magazines, but he had hired Levi and her to do a job and it was part of the contact...

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As ever, the desire to be respectful and indirect with writing the characters has collided with the fact that we're a bunch of geeks who generally can't take a hint when it's pounded into our brains with a relic hammer, never mind when it's been done respectfully and indirectly. Oh, well.

On to other news...

23 hours ago, Ookami_Tez said:

...Though I will save I am really confused about the whole "needs something to identify with." Cause I don't really do that maybe because of heavy RPG background but I don't look into fiction to Identify with things. I just want to see what kind of characters they are and follow their doings. More of video game thing then table top but still. I feel like me identifying with a character makes that character really dull, because I am fucking dull person. But yeah that's a rant for another time....

Yeah, I did want to reply to this at an earlier time, but didn't have steady internet access then.

I had the exact opposite idea. Because of heavy RPG background and the freedom to put anything into the fiction that I wanted, why not put in something that I could relate to? So that's when I asked to have my Malifaux Child painted up as a girl so I could have my stompybots and a presence on the tabletop too.

Neither of us are wrong, but we're definitely not in agreement. :)

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If we're getting in to "historical accuracy", I think there are some issues:

  • Sonnia Creed, Lady Justice, women being employed in the Guild Guard, prominent stories involving women working as engineers, etc.  Malifaux isn't 1906 Earth as far as some very important gender role rules are concerned.  I don't know what's been established for Earth side, but Malifaux side...
  • When trying to deal with the era in real life, you have to deal with the fact that a lot of stuff got erased through the use of euphemism or out-right omission.  "They were such close friends who never ended up marrying... ;)".

 

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3 minutes ago, solkan said:

I don't know what's been established for Earth side

Well, if TOS is anything to go by.

Women seem pretty rare on the battlefield for Abyssinia. but Kassa seems to have no problem working for them in a high ranking(commander) position.

Same with Kings hand; they don't seem to have any day-to-day soldiers that're female. But You've got Kassa, as well as Margaret belle.

the Cult has a lot more women in various positions, and the gibbering horde seems to be mainly commanded by female models; although they're not really indicative of human social values.

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2 hours ago, solkan said:

If we're getting in to "historical accuracy", I think there are some issues:

  • Sonnia Creed, Lady Justice, women being employed in the Guild Guard, prominent stories involving women working as engineers, etc.  Malifaux isn't 1906 Earth as far as some very important gender role rules are concerned.  I don't know what's been established for Earth side, but Malifaux side...
  • When trying to deal with the era in real life, you have to deal with the fact that a lot of stuff got erased through the use of euphemism or out-right omission.  "They were such close friends who never ended up marrying... ;)".

 

I don't think Masters make very good examples as they are fated and can therefore bypass a lot of societal constraints. The unnamed women are more telling.

In our history both world wars did a lot for women's rights as they got new opportunities when the men were away fighting. When were the "gunpowder wars"? And were they large enough to have a similar effect on Malifaux's earth?

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Unless I really flunked history in school, I'm fairly sure there was no magic portal to another world, no giant fighting robots, and no little drunk gremlins. So I feel like historical accuracy can sometimes take a back seat in the story.

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I'd argue that it's more historically accurate to include different attitudes from those that actually existed during our early 20th century, particularly because heteronormativity in the 1900s was majorly influenced by western imperialism and given that the British Empire is actually a lot smaller in the world of Malifaux there is likely to be more influence from more powerful places such as Abyssinia which didn't exist in the real world. And hey, even in the real world, the person that lesbians are literally named after lived around 600 BCE.

But I think that's beside the point. What I was saying with my previous post is that if you can imagine a world that includes ahistorical contrivances like giant robots and magic (which don't exist) but you draw the line at gay people (which do exist) then I don't think you have a problem with historical accuracy.

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14 minutes ago, Vorschlag said:

So you're happy to throw out all historical settings and run the game as if it's set in the prevent day?

There is no historical setting because there is no era in History that involves Soulstones, Breaches to another world and there were/are no gods/tyrants who caused a Burning man symbol to appear in our night's sky.

While the British empire was a taboo subject in our English history lessons (when I attended school), I think any one of the above would have been considered an interesting enough event to mention in class.

2 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

But I think that's beside the point. What I was saying with my previous post is that if you can imagine a world that includes ahistorical contrivances like giant robots and magic (which don't exist) but you draw the line at gay people (which do exist) then I don't think you have a problem with historical accuracy.

Well said.

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On 7/6/2017 at 7:11 AM, Kadeton said:

For what it's worth, the representations of Tara and Karina in The Dead Man's Ball (from Shifting Loyalties) were based on my aunt and her partner who had been a couple since the 1960s - they were the best example I could think of for two women who had spent (in T & K's case, literally) eternity together. :)

I loved their interactions, thank you! Also that's adorable. :)

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On 05.07.2017 at 5:54 PM, Da Git said:

Sonnia/Hopkins - gay - they have a very professional respect, but that's as far as it goes, so maybe one or the other could swing the other way maybe?

Wow, you are connecting points that are clearly not connected.
Both Sonnia and Sam are decent (in some way) workers of the guild. They work hard and have very little time to do anything with their personal space. Sonnia is kinda exalted character with allmighty godlike being locked inside her, she is also a hardworker and just self-contained a little bit. Sam is just a loyal operative and I'm sure that he was scared a little of actual Sonnia (before Cherufe was removed). Also there are so many warm notes in their talks during "ambush"(Rising powers) and thoughts of Sam in Latigo and The Inferno.
I would say that Sam loves Sonnia but their grim work Sonnias temper and disastrous confluence of circumstances will never let them be together. I hope that 5th book(with Sonnia on the cover) will focus their connection a little bit more)
-fanboy mod off-

Besides anything else I want to focus all pro-LGBTQ guys here on fact that there are almost no sexuality in the entire story for main characters(hetero or anything else). Such content will only make the story less intense. As I see it sexuality and sexual orientaition of characters are one of the weakest points in character development for decades( just look at all big guys like Marvel failing every time they introduce another love-story). There must be strong reason to focus on such relations between characters ( and I see why Kirai has such a cool story- because it's not like "She is straight and in love with a guy"). I don't mind if any character will be a gay person if only there is some actual story behind it and the whole plot will be depended on it.

P.S. There is a big problem in my country and in most Muslim countries I think: presenting gay character say on demo games may be a felony or just haram, causing legal issues and decreasing sales in the entire country.

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Please refer to previous references to historical fantasy and alternative history.

The guild - the authoritarian government is basically the British Empire on crack.

The game is is set in a historical time period but is a fantasy game providing a historical fantasy setting or an alternative-history setting.

Either way we can assume the game is one way shape or form loosely bases on an adaptation of a historical setting.

Ignoring this is as valid as ignoring any other element of the games setting, hence what is your expectation of the games setting - refer to previous commentary.

For me I acknowledge that malifaux is a Gothic horror, wild west, Victorian horror fantasy alternative history "story telling game" (at least that's how it was sold to me) and I try to take this into account whennessy painting and converting my crews.

An example would be my guild guard are all converted to historical uniforms, My Tara has a usable sword  (swordsmanship and physics are a thing for me).

So while I accept the horror, fantasy and steam punk additions to the setting/period I do not ignore the historical/period setting the game seems to have been designed to build upon  (since it uses alternative history as its structure) as some people seem willing to do.

 

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3 hours ago, Kogan Style said:

While the British empire was a taboo subject in our English history lessons (when I attended school), I think any one of the above would have been considered an interesting enough event to mention in class.

Rather off-topic, but why was the British Empire a Taboo subject in your history class?  Is it the same way that pre- & early-WW2 are taboo in Japan (out of desire to bury it under the rug, shame and an unwillingness to admit they done bad... IMO)

2 hours ago, FinalForm said:

Wow, you are connecting points that are clearly not connected.
Both Sonnia and Sam are decent (in some way) workers of the guild. They work hard and have very little time to do anything with their personal space. Sonnia is kinda exalted character with allmighty godlike being locked inside her, she is also a hardworker and just self-contained a little bit. Sam is just a loyal operative and I'm sure that he was scared a little of actual Sonnia (before Cherufe was removed). Also there are so many warm notes in their talks during "ambush"(Rising powers) and thoughts of Sam in Latigo and The Inferno.
I would say that Sam loves Sonnia but their grim work Sonnias temper and disastrous confluence of circumstances will never let them be together. I hope that 5th book(with Sonnia on the cover) will focus their connection a little bit more)
-fanboy mod off-

Besides anything else I want to focus all pro-LGBTQ guys here on fact that there are almost no sexuality in the entire story for main characters(hetero or anything else). Such content will only make the story less intense. As I see it sexuality and sexual orientaition of characters are one of the weakest points in character development for decades( just look at all big guys like Marvel failing every time they introduce another love-story). There must be strong reason to focus on such relations between characters ( and I see why Kirai has such a cool story- because it's not like "She is straight and in love with a guy"). I don't mind if any character will be a gay person if only there is some actual story behind it and the whole plot will be depended on it.

P.S. There is a big problem in my country and in most Muslim countries I think: presenting gay character say on demo games may be a felony or just haram, causing legal issues and decreasing sales in the entire country.

Never said it was likely, just possible...  Really, other than the one's that have had it spelt out, any of the characters could be gay, straight or anything in between... it's up to the player and user to interpret it how they want.  I'm a huge fan of that! 

I largely agree with the second paragraph, that if they introduce a LGBTQ character, it shouldn't be their main sticking point just like Kiria's focus is vengeance & Leve's is entropy (rather than being purely a lecherous old man).  Otherwise, I'm largely indifferent, but if it means a lot to others, than I would be perfectly happy with their inclusion.

***

On the topic of choosing to play relatable characters, I'm actually the opposite.  Using Warhammer as an example, I can relate mostly to the Dwarfs, but much prefer playing Elves.  In Malifaux, there's not really anyone I can really relate to, but I like Misaki & the Ten Thunders for that same grace, poise & precision (all words that do not describe me at all!) and Lilith & Titania (their arrogance suits me a bit better!).  I choose characters and factions based on play-style which is fast & hard hitting, precision instruments, which is what I'd like to be... not who I am!

 

 

 

 

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LGBT characters asking for inclusion is always seen as sexual.

3 hours ago, FinalForm said:

Wow, you are connecting points that are clearly not connected.
Both Sonnia and Sam are decent (in some way) workers of the guild. They work hard and have very little time to do anything with their personal space. Sonnia is kinda exalted character with allmighty godlike being locked inside her, she is also a hardworker and just self-contained a little bit. Sam is just a loyal operative and I'm sure that he was scared a little of actual Sonnia (before Cherufe was removed). Also there are so many warm notes in their talks during "ambush"(Rising powers) and thoughts of Sam in Latigo and The Inferno.
I would say that Sam loves Sonnia but their grim work Sonnias temper and disastrous confluence of circumstances will never let them be together. I hope that 5th book(with Sonnia on the cover) will focus their connection a little bit more)
-fanboy mod off-

Besides anything else I want to focus all pro-LGBTQ guys here on fact that there are almost no sexuality in the entire story for main characters(hetero or anything else). Such content will only make the story less intense. As I see it sexuality and sexual orientaition of characters are one of the weakest points in character development for decades( just look at all big guys like Marvel failing every time they introduce another love-story). There must be strong reason to focus on such relations between characters ( and I see why Kirai has such a cool story- because it's not like "She is straight and in love with a guy"). I don't mind if any character will be a gay person if only there is some actual story behind it and the whole plot will be depended on it.

P.S. There is a big problem in my country and in most Muslim countries I think: presenting gay character say on demo games may be a felony or just haram, causing legal issues and decreasing sales in the entire country.

Claiming inclusion of gay character is inherently sexual is a common misconception. And why do gay characters always have to have a proper story reason for being gay, why can't a gay character just be gay? Straight characters are just straight all the time. And there being no straightness for the main characters is nonsense, the fluff itself likes to draw attention to how attractive a lot of the female characters are in ways that are definitely aimed at straight audiences. And let's see,

Guild: Implied relationship between Lady Justice and the Judge, McCabe had a girlfriend
Ressers: Nicodem in Rising Powers was lecherous over Kirai, Seamus and his belles, Kirai and Francis
Arcanists: Marcus and Miranda, Mei Feng and English Ivan in Shifting Loyalties, Colette and the whole showgirl / theater crew and how all the clients fall over themselves
Neverborn: I suppose Lilith not but there are seduce-y Nephilim, Lynch's Honeypot sex workers
Outcasts: Leveticus and Alyce + the Waifs
Gremlins: Ophelia and Wong being all charming towards her, Ophelia being seen as attractive herself, Trixiebelle!
Ten Thunders: Asami's dad wanting her to find a husband, her herself daydreaming about a husband and a family.

And that's Masters and associated characters, there's tons of mentions of wives and husbands for tons of major and minor characters. And that's the point, straight sexuality isn't even seen as sexuality it just is.

And honestly, like, Wyrd shouldn't bend over to the fact that some places might have shitty discriminatory attitudes or policies. Cause then they'd have to reduce a lot of their female characters too.

----------

also it's not always about wnating to play a LGBT character, it's just nice to actually see people like you in the universe, it makes it feel more real. Like, it's easy if you're a man cause there's always gonna be characters like you.

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Also it's this annoying hostility towards inclusion that parts of the Wyrd community always seem to have that just puts me (and other people) off from investing in the game right now. I know the previous big debacle around sexism gave Wyrd a bad reputation already. (And that's not cause Wyrd themselves are big meanies persay, but at least in the case I mentioned their response to what happened was lackluster)

 

 

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I see malifaux just like i see any other fantasy world (Conan, Star Wars, Warhammer, etc.)...and i distance myself from our real world issues when it comes to society. In some cases, I feel it's absolutely necessary since some characters or factions are real abominations from our society's standpoint,  and otherwise those fictions might be derailed into social debates and the whole story forgotten.

As a side note, I think wyrd has done a tremendous job in including women in their main character lineup, and has gone so far as giving them traditional male niches. In fact most melee dominant master characters are female afaik

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A perceived absence of LGBT characters does not mean exclusion of that sexual orientation or worse; and this extends to other traits, cultures, ideas etc. Before Book 4 did anyone think that because Sandeep and his crew hadn't yet been released that there was an issue with Wyrd having a diverse representation of cultures?

If/when Wyrd releases a LGBT character it should be because they decided to write a LGBT character.

To address the above comment about some parts of the Wyrd community being hostile:

Some of the hostility may be because some people believe a miniature company and it's products shouldn't be used for the promotion LGBT. Being LGBT doesn't make an individual special, not that anyone said that, but when members of the community try and argue for inclusion of that single character trait it is off putting. It makes it appear that LGBT is a special distinction that should always be acknowledged, above all character traits, otherwise you are against it and should be flogged.*

*Dumb humor.  

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25 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

A perceived absence of LGBT characters does not mean exclusion of that sexual orientation or worse; and this extends to other traits, cultures, ideas etc. Before Book 4 did anyone think that because Sandeep and his crew hadn't yet been released that there was an issue with Wyrd having a diverse representation of cultures?

If/when Wyrd releases a LGBT character it should be because they decided to write a LGBT character.

To address the above comment about some parts of the Wyrd community being hostile:

Some of the hostility may be because some people believe a miniature company and it's products shouldn't be used for the promotion LGBT. Being LGBT doesn't make an individual special, not that anyone said that, but when members of the community try and argue for inclusion of that single character trait it is off putting. It makes it appear that LGBT is a special distinction that should always be acknowledged, above all character traits, otherwise you are against it and should be flogged.*

*Dumb humor.  

So why do straight characters just get to be characters, but lgbt characters don't? And please, acknowledging that lgbt characters exist is hardly promotion. You are completely misrepresenting people's positions, and if I might add, sounding quite similar to bigots that are all "don't let kids know gay people exist cause they icky".

There being a couple LGBT characters in Malifaux has literally no bad effects on straight / cis people, and positive ones for lgbt people.

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15 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

 Before Book 4 did anyone think that because Sandeep and his crew hadn't yet been released that there was an issue with Wyrd having a diverse representation of cultures?

Yes, we did. Wyrd did a much better job post-Book 4 with Sandeep and adding Abby in TOS (a real African faction in a tabletop game is huge). But having the only real diversity in miniature gaming doesn't mean they win some imaginary diversity prize - Wyrd can always do better in representing how the world actually looks instead of "Here's a bunch of straight  / white people because that's the default."

Quote

Some of the hostility may be because some people believe a miniature company and it's products shouldn't be used for the promotion LGBT. Being LGBT doesn't make an individual special, not that anyone said that, but when members of the community try and argue for inclusion of that single character trait it is off putting. It makes it appear that LGBT is a special distinction that should always be acknowledged, above all character traits, otherwise you are against it and should be flogged.*

You're right - being LGBT doesn't make people special. It makes them normal and they should be portrayed and represented as such - as a normal part of the character landscape.

Building on what Nathan said, you don't need to push The LGBT Agenda in anyone's face to have fair diversity. But you also don't need to get angry when someone different from you wants a slice of the same pie you've been free to eat for years.

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At this point I'm just puzzled by the people talking about this happening in the future when it's already been written in the past. We've got Word of the Author on the previous page saying so. That is about as un-subtle as you can get [and as un-subtle as we needed].

 

 

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Does it matter if there are LGBT characters in the story? Sexuality shouldn't be any sort of focal point in the story. If they want to throw an ambiguous nod towards it fine. I would much rather see and read about the characters struggles in the world around him/her, and his/her sexuality has nothing to do with how he deals with a hoard of gremlins autistically screeching across the swamp at them. Or the intricate political workings of word play as two character vie for the conversational high ground.

 

Take your favorite character, insert desired sexual orientation, continue reading, and enjoying the fluff and the game

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1 hour ago, Astrella said:

So why do straight characters just get to be characters, but lgbt characters don't? And please, acknowledging that lgbt characters exist is hardly promotion. You are completely misrepresenting people's positions, and if I might add, sounding quite similar to bigots that are all "don't let kids know gay people exist cause they icky".

There being a couple LGBT characters in Malifaux has literally no bad effects on straight / cis people, and positive ones for lgbt people.

The inverse can be said, having a Straight couple of characters has no bad effects on LGBT. With what you're saying though. How does one add a LGBT character without it being explicitly in your face? Why cant a character be a character? A game doesn't have to include every bit of current social nuances, when given the time period its mirroring it would of been a taboo and still frowned on (though that in and of its self would make an interesting dynamic). Just let the damned characters develop, I for one dont tie any sort of sexuality to the character. Though Colette and Cassandras use of woman sexuality is pretty good and fits within the time period of what I would think a woman would have to do to succeed in a time period dominated by men 

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For what it's worth, I think we've already established that "historical accuracy" means very little when:

1) GLBT people were already at some level of the public consciousness in that time period, and people, as mentioned, used euphemisms (good friends, spinster aunts) to acknowledge them without necessarily outing them. We know there was some degree of bias extending to whisper campaigns and outright persecution, but there were certainly those who took the position of "not my business". 

2) The Malifaux world has already undergone considerable social upheaval, thanks to the opening of the Breach(es), which means history started diverging around, when, the 1700s? By the time of "modern day" Malifaux, history has been diverging for ~150-200 years, which is a hell of a long time in scientific, societal, whatnot change. The British Empire was already getting a jump on the U.S. in clamping down on the slave trade by ~60 years in our timeline. Even though I believe Ironsides' parents were slaves, with the U.S. not really becoming a thing that I know of, does that have consequences for the slave trade in the Malifaux timeline? Did it diminish, and if so did that mean things like women's suffrage and LGBT rights got a few decades' head start?

That's one of the reasons I'm very hype to get my hands on the The Other Side core book, because while we've gotten some initial peeks in the Malifaux fluff, and Fire In The Sky was a great look (control of the Western seaboard), it's going to be our first comprehensive look at the Malifaux world, Earth-side. I know it might be putting a bit much on the shoulders of the fluff writers for the book, but I'm still looking forward to whatever they choose to tell us :P

Overall, I would say it's more accurate to say the Malifaux world takes "historical cues" from our world. There's just enough from our actual past to elicit the "cool!" response, but enough has changed that "accuracy" isn't really a thing anymore.

49 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

At this point I'm just puzzled by the people talking about this happening in the future when it's already been written in the past. We've got Word of the Author on the previous page saying so. That is about as un-subtle as you can get [and as un-subtle as we needed].

 

 

I think it's a great reference! it's just that I don't think it's really that clear without having to, well, have the author come in and explain his intentions. Honestly, Tara and Karina are a good duo but I didn't take that away from them, and even the other posters seemed uncertain on what exactly was going on which gave rise to the question. A lot of us are taking the position that representation would benefit from a nice middle ground in which it's readily apparent without dominating the story, which could range from a main character or their interactions in a story.

11 minutes ago, goat90 said:

autistically

Let's not do this.

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