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LGBT characters?


dannydb

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11 minutes ago, TheSpinebuster said:

 The only thing to be careful of is perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

And applying modern opinions, attitudes and beliefs to a historical setting.

Let's not forget that there were laws enforced for both buggery and cross dressing.

While sexual deviation obviously existed it was not anywhere near as often openly expressed and had a much higher chance of social disapproval.

So characters would likely be a bit more cagey, private or even ashamed of it.

Of course exceptions existed, Molly houses etc so there is room in the fluff for it as long as we don't invalidate the period of the game with modern "sensabilities"

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45 minutes ago, TheSpinebuster said:

You argued that you can't say the only sexuality represented is straight because they never explicitly say so - to which I respond that you also can't say they represent other sexualities because they never explicitly say so.

Wyrd has done an excellent job of creating a wider variety of representation of women and various cultures in the models in the game. It would be nice to see this kind of representation extend into the lore, and I don't think it needs any sort of 'but don't make it the focus' caveat. There is nothing wrong with a character being gay and it being a focal point of their story, unless you think there is something wrong with being gay (or trans or bi, etc.). The only thing to be careful of is perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

A character being gay and that being the focal point of their story is, outside of a very limited set of story lines, tokenism.  That leads to terrible nonsense like "Same sex lover introduced for character, then that lover is killed."

There's a reason why one of the louder calls in the communities is for "boringly gay characters", characters that are gay, and it doesn't matter to their story.  

And for what it's worth, there's a lot more room for that sort of thing in an RPG setting, because there you can actually deal with the consequences.

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36 minutes ago, Kyris said:

But writing a character who's main character trait is their sexuality or sexual orientation is just bad writing.

Agreed, not only does it rely on stereotypes but it also creates a pretty hollow personality which I agree is not a positive representation of "diversity".

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43 minutes ago, Vorschlag said:

And applying modern opinions, attitudes and beliefs to a historical setting.

...

Of course exceptions existed, Molly houses etc so there is room in the fluff for it as long as we don't invalidate the period of the game with modern "sensabilities"

The game already applies modern sensibilities to the world of Malifaux, consider the prominent role of women in front line combat and leadership positions. I consider this to be a strength of the game's setting. Also not sold on Malifaux counting as a historical setting.

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Just saying this much many times there is a hard push to make LGBT characters they do tend to come out really dull. At least to me. I think making something like sexual orientation the major thing about the character overshadows other aspects that might make him or her interesting. Like if you look at real life if a person comes out really heavily open about their sexual orientation (be it Strait or gay) is a bit of a head scratcher. Of course a character might make a mention about a character waking from a bed and seeing a same-sex person sleeping next to them and moving on to the meat of the story. Or even making something like a gay couple that actually work as models in the game with synergy with each other. Like making a strait couple who has synergy as models in the game. And have them be something interesting outside of that.

But maybe I am not a person who this whole talk focuses on being outside of LGBT. Though I will save I am really confused about the whole "needs something to identify with." Cause I don't really do that maybe because of heavy RPG background but I don't look into fiction to Identify with things. I just want to see what kind of characters they are and follow their doings. More of video game thing then table top but still. I feel like me identifying with a character makes that character really dull, because I am fucking dull person. But yeah that's a rant for another time.

So in summary. LGBT characters would be nice, but don't make it the Major point of the character. Make a interesting character and have him be LGBT if s/he seems like one. Make them Badass/Funny/Entertaining/Interesting without the fact they are LGBT and they are ok in my book.

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1 minute ago, TheSpinebuster said:

We clearly disagree on the subject of what can constitute good writing. Demanding a character's sexuality be treated quietly and unobtrusively is a silencing tactic.

How the TTB Under Quarantine book handled it with Emily Bellerose's profile - with coy hints about how golly, women sure do like her and are willing to help her - would be a lot better than even a one-shot character about which homosexuality is their only defining trait, or adding it to an existing character with no previous hints about it one way or the other - weirdly, my example was going to be Von Schill, but that might be interesting if handled well. I'm just not sure I'd trust ANYONE to handle that well.

If they did something else, like confirm a Karina/Tara relationship with more than just hints (and avoided the obvious dirty joke), or have Colette interrupted while giving a lesson on "How to bend another woman around your finger,"  or had a male Beckoner seducing another man in the background while Lynch has to persuade Misaki not to go downstairs... that would be a lot more interesting.

For the most part, there exist characters that COULD be homosexual, but it isn't filled in and referenced because it isn't important to them or the story. Like Major Kusanagi from GitS. The only reason that we know she's lesbian is because she got called at home. Other than that it has no impact on the story or do much for her character other than, "Well, she prefers AC over DC."

 

Hmm... now I can't stop thinking about Von Schill. What if Nellie interviewed him, with a comment about "Rumors suggest that your falling out with Lucius was due to him turning you down for a tryst. What is your response?" He laughs and says, "Of course not. I like some muscle on my men, and I've never met a skinnier twig of a man than him..."

Still could be taken in a non-sexual way, but still puts that out there. And explains the epic mustache. :P

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Yes "historical" fantasy often includes magic or technology which is not "historically accurate" however a large part of "historical fantasy" games or "alternative history" games is that they use a "historical" period and social setting, throw that away and the setting becomes vanilla.

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1 hour ago, TheSpinebuster said:

We clearly disagree on the subject of what can constitute good writing. Demanding a character's sexuality be treated quietly and unobtrusively is a silencing tactic.

Imagine if they made a character who's main, defining character trait, was that were heterosexual.

With nearly every ability on their card flavored in a way to reference how often they have heterosexual intercourse, and just how aggressively heterosexual they are.

You might be interested in that sort of thing. But I'm not. I know people like that in real life; they're all annoying frat bros and I can't stand any of them.

 

Your sexuality is, and should be, one of the million of things that make you a unique, interesting person.

If you want to normalize homosexuality(as it should be), you have to treat it just that way; as normal.

 

Here's a good test; take a character like kirari. Her story has her losing a lover as a major part of her story. That lover happens to be a male: now, change the model into a female and swap the names/pronouns whenever he is mentioned. Does it change the story? No. Because her being straight isn't what defines her.

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30 minutes ago, Kyris said:

Imagine if they made a character who's main, defining character trait, was that were heterosexual.

With nearly every ability on their card flavored in a way to reference how often they have heterosexual intercourse, and just how aggressively heterosexual they are.

So the fonz?

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1 minute ago, Vorschlag said:

So the fonz?

I was never actually a fan of Happy Days. I was thinking more Captain Kirk if you also removed the fact that he was a good pilot.

So...zap brannigan.

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I've never been able to take mustaches seriously in Malifaux since that cartoon with one stuck onto the sculpt of Ryle. The metal, original sculpt, visibly decaying Ryle. :huh:

14 minutes ago, Kyris said:

I was never actually a fan of Happy Days. I was thinking more Captain Kirk if you also removed the fact that he was a good pilot.

So...zap brannigan.

*glances at Zipp*

You're not helping either. :P

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1 hour ago, Kyris said:

Here's a good test; take a character like kirari. Her story has her losing a lover as a major part of her story. That lover happens to be a male: now, change the model into a female and swap the names/pronouns whenever he is mentioned. Does it change the story? No. Because her being straight isn't what defines her.

Which I think is the right way to go about depicting a character's sexuality.  The thing is nothing like Kirai's story exists for a gay, lesbian, or bi character in the lore.

In general, most sexuality is hinted it regardless of orientation.  However, it is sometimes explicitly stated such as in Kirai's case.  But that's not also true for a character who is LGBT.  It would be nice to have a character or two explicitly mentioned as gay/lesbian/bi.

It doesn't even have to be done through love scenes similar to Kirai's.  It could be something as simple as a sentence or two that more explicitly states a character's non-hetero sexuality.

I know journals from the late 19th century and early 20th century have been a great source of insight into same-sex relationships of the time.  A short journal entry that establishes a character's non-hetero sexuality could be consistent with the time period.

And finally, I feel the reason this gets brought up is because it means a lot to an LGBT person to see representation of LGBT characters.  I struggled for many years to accept the fact that I'm gay.  I felt like the I was the only gay person.  I never had a gay character that I could read about and think, "I'm not the only one."  I don't think straight adults and young adults commonly have that experience.  And so it might seem strange when people ask for more LGBT representation.  And I'm not saying you feel it's strange, but I wanted to provide an anecdote that explains why I am hopeful for a more concrete LGBT character.

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11 hours ago, Nathan Caroland said:

For me, writing, and the characters that are presented therein, are better off if they can make a connection with the reader on some level, or capture their attention so that they can start to fill in the blanks themselves. I've always liked to have options, and for me at least, nothing sucks more than to have every line, attribute and minute decision about a person/character decided and outlined for all to see. Leave a bit of mystery, give yourself some leeway, have a bit of fun. Besides, it allows us so many other options as a company to decide what we're doing with XYZ down the road, instead of painting ourselves into a hard-edged corner. 

But some characters have had that blank filled in.  Maybe not completely filled in but much more concretely.  I'm not interested in having every single blank filled in all of the way, but it would be nice to see one or two characters' blank filled in more concretely a la Kirai or something similar.  

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1 hour ago, skoatz said:

Which I think is the right way to go about depicting a character's sexuality.  The thing is nothing like Kirai's story exists for a gay, lesbian, or bi character in the lore.

In general, most sexuality is hinted it regardless of orientation.  However, it is sometimes explicitly stated such as in Kirai's case.  But that's not also true for a character who is LGBT.  It would be nice to have a character or two explicitly mentioned as gay/lesbian/bi.

It doesn't even have to be done through love scenes similar to Kirai's.  It could be something as simple as a sentence or two that more explicitly states a character's non-hetero sexuality.

I know journals from the late 19th century and early 20th century have been a great source of insight into same-sex relationships of the time.  A short journal entry that establishes a character's non-hetero sexuality could be consistent with the time period.

 

which, not only am I not against. I'm absolutely in support of; although I think it's important to note that we shouldn't demand anything from Wyrd, just suggest "hey, this would make a cool character"

the problem isn't including gay characters. the problem is characters who's major traits are their sexuality; period. male or female, gay, straight, bi or trans. No person is defined solely by their sexuality, sexuality orientation, or gender. and that's exactly how any well written story should treat it. It's a difference between "the gay character" and "a character that happens to be gay"

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For what it's worth, the representations of Tara and Karina in The Dead Man's Ball (from Shifting Loyalties) were based on my aunt and her partner who had been a couple since the 1960s - they were the best example I could think of for two women who had spent (in T & K's case, literally) eternity together. :)

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2 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

For what it's worth, the representations of Tara and Karina in The Dead Man's Ball (from Shifting Loyalties) were based on my aunt and her partner who had been a couple since the 1960s - they were the best example I could think of for two women who had spent (in T & K's case, literally) eternity together. :)

Is it weird to say 'that's fuckin' adorable"? because if not..

 

that's fuckin' adorable.

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well nice to see that the discussion is plodding along nicely. It does seem to be that there isn't many comments on the majority of characters (I mean other than kiri and mccabe and a couple of hinted at relationships,  none of the characters seem to have significant others mentioned) 

I do agree though if it was something to be more included it shouldn't be something that is rammed down the reader's throats which is just a massive turn off (for example for people who watch Dr who a huge turn off this season has been the fact that Bill has mentioned the fact she is a lesbian in 99% of the episodes- WE GET IT BILL YOU LIKE WOMEN YOU SAID ALREADY!) Sexuality is part of a character not their entire character and although it would be nice to get a bit more more information about the masters spare time, this should be to the benefit of the story and malifaux universe not the determinant of.

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What I like about this discussion is the fact, that nobody seems to vote against LGBT becaus its "unnatural" or something like that. Seems to me we're a bunch of open minded people.

:lol:

I share the opinion, that it doesn't matter, because an interesting characcter in the Malifaux setting ist not based around its sexuality. In real live it shouldn't either - but as for example a frined of mine is trans and has a lot to struggle with his/her coming out, so sometimes it takes more about the character of somebody.

And I really do like that Wyrd is making no difference between male and female charcters, they're all created equally interesting.

 

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