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LGBT characters?


dannydb

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8 minutes ago, goat90 said:

The inverse can be said, having a Straight couple of characters has no bad effects on LGBT. With what you're saying though. How does one add a LGBT character without it being explicitly in your face? Why cant a character be a character? A game doesn't have to include every bit of current social nuances, when given the time period its mirroring it would of been a taboo and still frowned on (though that in and of its self would make an interesting dynamic). Just let the damned characters develop, I for one dont tie any sort of sexuality to the character. Though Colette and Cassandras use of woman sexuality is pretty good and fits within the time period of what I would think a woman would have to do to succeed in a time period dominated by menĀ 

I mean, did you think Francis / Kirai was in your face? I don't see why it would have been any more in your face if it had been Francene / Kirai.

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16 minutes ago, Pyrflamme said:

For what it's worth, I think we've already established that "historical accuracy" means very little when:

1) GLBT people were already at some level of the public consciousness in that time period, and people, as mentioned, used euphemisms (good friends, spinster aunts) to acknowledge them without necessarily outing them. We know there was some degree of bias extending to whisper campaigns and outright persecution, but there were certainly those who took the position of "not my business".Ā 

2) The Malifaux world has already undergone considerable social upheaval, thanks to the opening of the Breach(es), which means history started diverging around, when, the 1700s? By the time of "modern day" Malifaux, history has been diverging for ~150-200 years, which is a hell of a long time in scientific, societal, whatnot change. The British Empire was already getting a jump on the U.S. in clamping down on the slave trade by ~60 years in our timeline. Even though I believe Ironsides' parents were slaves, with the U.S. not really becoming a thing that I know of, does that have consequences for the slave trade in the Malifaux timeline? Did it diminish, and if so did that mean things like women's suffrage and LGBT rights got a few decades' head start?

That's one of the reasons I'm very hype to get my hands on the The Other Side core book, because while we've gotten some initial peeks in the Malifaux fluff, and Fire In The Sky was a great look (control of the Western seaboard), it's going to be our first comprehensive look at the Malifaux world, Earth-side. I know it might be putting a bit much on the shoulders of the fluff writers for the book, but I'm still looking forward to whatever they choose to tell us :P

Overall, I would say it's more accurate to say the Malifaux world takes "historical cues" from our world. There's just enough from our actual past to elicit the "cool!" response, but enough has changed that "accuracy" isn't really a thing anymore.

I think it's a great reference! it's just that I don't think it's really that clear without having to, well, have the author come in and explain his intentions. Honestly, Tara and Karina are a good duo but I didn't take that away from them, and even the other posters seemed uncertain on what exactly was going on which gave rise to the question. A lot of us are taking the position that representation would benefit from a nice middle ground in which it's readily apparent without dominating the story, which could range from a main character or their interactions in a story.

Let's not do this.

You are arguing based off of an assumption, Malifaux could be different sure, but we dont know nor will ever know the social climate of a fictional world. Historical accuracy or not, taking the climate of the world at the time Malifaux takes place1800-1900, its a safe bet that any sort of divergence from social norms such has Homosexuality would still be seen with distain.

Ā 

And really.... from my entire argument you pulled autistically? Come on bro/chick its the internet

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Actually no it didnt seem in my face, I didnt see it as impactful to the over all story, it changed a dynamic in the interaction with 2 characters. But it felt natural and a good progression. Not saying that if Francis, wanted to have a relationship with a guy it couldnt be natural, but again why does it matter?Ā 

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2 minutes ago, goat90 said:

You are arguing based off of an assumption, Malifaux could be different sure, but we dont know nor will ever know the social climate of a fictional world. Historical accuracy or not, taking the climate of the world at the time Malifaux takes place1800-1900, its a safe bet that any sort of divergence from social norms such has Homosexuality would still be seen with distain.

Ā 

And really.... from my entire argument you pulled autistically? Come on bro/chick its the internet

The ground of "would it be as acceptable in the Malifaux world as it is in ours" and "how can it be included without being overwhelming" has already been talked about extensively, so I didn't feel the need to touch on those.

And yeah, it's the internet, so what? I think it's a bad thing to use autism as a pejorative and I'll say so regardless how many "you mad bro"s thrown back at me.

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Just now, Pyrflamme said:

The ground of "would it be as acceptable in the Malifaux world as it is in ours" and "how can it be included without being overwhelming" has already been talked about extensively, so I didn't feel the need to touch on those.

And yeah, it's the internet, so what? I think it's a bad thing to use autism as a pejorative and I'll say so regardless how many "you mad bro"s thrown back at me.

Very true, you have the right to call me out on it as much as I have the right to use it as I see fit along with other words as well.Ā lets just hope you dont enjoy any memes.

Ā 

Sure cop out of the argument. I read it as well, and yours along with everyone else (even mine to some degree) is arguing from an assumption, which can be biased

Ā 

Heres what I find intersting, the LGB community says that they are just as normal as a straight person, now I agree, so why is it that when ever a character is never explicitly stated homo or made as flaming as they can be, people go up in arms? Its either you're normal or not. They shouldn't have to wave a rainbow flag around, the writers should continue to write as they see fit, if a well developed LGB character comes from that great! If not, its not the end of the world

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No-one is saying it's the end of the world; but as you can see in this thread there's people who have an issue with lgbt characters even being included in the setting. And the historical accuracy argument is a bit of a faux one, considering the setting already diverts heavily in that regard; not to mention Malifaux itself is the outback, where different rules and morals from earth apply. E.g. the Guild seems to feature women in high military ranks quite often, contrary to contemporary Earth.

And "it's the internet" is a pretty weak argument and I don't see how ableism is related to memes. *shrug*

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35 minutes ago, Pyrflamme said:

...I think it's a great reference! it's just that I don't think it's really that clear without having to, well, have the author come in and explain his intentions. Honestly, Tara and Karina are a good duo but I didn't take that away from them, and even the other posters seemed uncertain on what exactly was going on which gave rise to the question. A lot of us are taking the position that representation would benefit from a nice middle ground in which it's readily apparent without dominating the story, which could range from a main character or their interactions in a story.

Let's not do this.

It was clear enough in the 'discreet' way that most people were happily asking for.

Obviously that level of discretion and hinting isn't blunt enough for the majority of us geeks to pick up on, and the level that is obvious enough is irritatingly obvious and clichƩ.

And any time we're discussing oblivious geeks, I'm afraid 'autistic' must be discussed, to sort out the ones who literally cannot see hints [and, given the same information in irritatingly obvious form, go 'whoops, my bad, didn't see that' without being irritated] from those who are just being clods.

31 minutes ago, Astrella said:

I mean, did you think Francis / Kirai was in your face? I don't see why it would have been any more in your face if it had been Francene / Kirai.

OH MY GOD, YES, IT WAS, WE GET IT ALREADY!

...I get hints, and therefore tend to yell that back at Breachside Broadcast. A lot. May not have been your target audience for that remark.

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I always figured, for the most part, major Malifaux Characters were by in large "On the clock" when we see them so unless their love life plays a huge part in their lives and motivations (Like with Kirai) we wouldn't know one way or another what their interests were.

I prefer it left vague so I can discuss with my friends and project where I do and do not want to do so: that's what makes stories fun for me. I like how theĀ story sometimes focuses on a lot of things and issues in a sort-of-sideways way,Ā in the same way thatĀ Gene Roddenberry would with Star Trek,Ā by taking issues and hot button topics of modern day and applying them to things that are alien and foreign so that we may learn and reflect from not only our past but our present: I'd find it far more interesting, and true to the setting, for a human to fall in love with a Nephalim or a re-raised recently deceased individual of unknown gender. From here we can explore something that is only possible in Malifaux while still hitting a note of non-standard sexuality. I guess in the end I don't believe the inclusion of a character stating they are X, Y, or Z is any more important then a character stating they aren't unless it is pivotalĀ to that character.Ā 

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4 minutes ago, Astrella said:

No-one is saying it's the end of the world; but as you can see in this thread there's people who have an issue with lgbt characters even being included in the setting. And the historical accuracy argument is a bit of a faux one, considering the setting already diverts heavily in that regard; not to mention Malifaux itself is the outback, where different rules and morals from earth apply. E.g. the Guild seems to feature women in high military ranks quite often, contrary to contemporary Earth.

And "it's the internet" is a pretty weak argument and I don't see how ableism is related to memes. *shrug*

Women also owned businesses and land in real life back then, and it was against the social norm for a woman, but it was still rare. Not arguing the fact that Malifaux is different, this is like trying to argue the feasibility of space battle in star wars. We dont know in a fictional climate.

Ā 

Now from a media source, why does it matter if a character is explicitly gay or not? Why can't you guys answer that? Homosexuality, even heterosexuality doesnt have a place in every piece of mass consumed media. Ive read plenty of books and played games, where I never thought, "Gee I wish I knew if this character was gay or straight" Just enjoy the damned fluff and game, assume whatever sexual orientation you want. This sexuality doesn't really play a huge roll in the over arching story or trying to tag sexuality to a characters identity, doesn't really work.

Ā 

And yes the internet is a strong answer, if you get angry at me using Autistic the way I did, be careful about other words, and memes as well (see my profile pic as an example). If you're going to call out a word being used in a way you don't like, and even get angry, social interaction within the confines of the internet is no place for you my friend.

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It seems like Malifaux writers are in a rough position with writingĀ a character as LGBT. The LGBT community has been struggling toĀ ditch the image of being a group of hedonistic deviants. It would be hard to make a character LGBT without feeding into those old stereotypes since most of the cast of Malifaux is made up of sociopaths.

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2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It seems like Malifaux writers are in a rough position with writingĀ a character as LGBT. The LGBT community has been struggling toĀ ditch the image of being a group of hedonistic deviants. It would be hard to make a character LGBT without feeding into those old stereotypes since most of the cast of Malifaux is made up of sociopaths.

May not be a bad idea, would make for a hell of a story arch, "Im gay, Im angry, respkt me"

Ā 

But seriously though, if its to be normalized, how do you normalize it without playing into the stereotypes? How do yo normalize it without making it seem like they just came from a gay pride parade in chicago?Ā 

Ā 

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As Nathan said earlier, sensitive issues such as this tend to be a hot-button topic, so we try to approach them with a light touch. We have a variety of sexual orientations present in Malifaux, but most of the time, it just isn't all that relevant to cutting up zombies or stopping an Arcanist from throwing fireballs at people.

At the end of the day, it's a complicated discussion that everyone in the world is still trying to work through. We're doing our best to make our games as inclusive as possible while keeping things from turning into a political soapbox. Hopefully, we'll do a good job of walking that narrow line in the future.

Ā 

No matter which side of the discussion you find yourself, however, please remember to be civil to your fellow forum-goers.

We're all here because we love Malifaux, after all.

Ā 

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And now, you see why we don't take these subjects and hit everyone over the head with them. Everyone has an opinion, some are going to be quiet others are going to scream and slap folks about the head with it, and then there is the whole wide area in betweenĀ - and frankly, I don't want it, nor need it, in a game which is supposed to bring enjoyment to folks, not cause everyone to scramble off to hard lines and fight the good fight, whatever that may be.

I'm not going to lock the thread, but please treat each other with respect and don't resort to name calling or causing hard feelings - it's not worth it. At the end of the day, enjoy the game, have fun. If not, try something else out that brings you enjoyment.Ā 

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15 minutes ago, goat90 said:

May not be a bad idea, would make for a hell of a story arch, "Im gay, Im angry, respkt me"

Ā 

But seriously though, if its to be normalized, how do you normalize it without playing into the stereotypes? How do yo normalize it without making it seem like they just came from a gay pride parade in chicago?Ā 

Ā 

I'm not a writer, but I think that the best way to do it is to just write the character like you would a straight character and slowly introduce details as they are appropriate to the story being told.

I'm of the opinion that for a small company like Wyrd, LGBT characters are a minefield. Unless they have a good story that they want to tell that needs a character to be something other than straight they run the risk of slighting the community that they are attempting to include. They're much better off with characters that have ambiguous sexuality.Ā Ā Ā Ā 

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Just now, WWHSD said:

I'm not a writer, but I think that the best way to do it is to just write the character like you would a straight character and slowly introduce details as they are appropriate to the story being told.

I'm of the opinion that for a small company like Wyrd, LGBT characters are a minefield. Unless they have a good story that they want to tell that needs a character to be something other than straight they run the risk of slighting the community that they are attempting to include. They're much better off with characters have ambiguous sexuality.Ā Ā Ā Ā 

yes and thats the problem, I agree with you, they write it out, if it develops naturally it can be a great little arch, I dont think in the fluff of Malifaux it really matters, with other games like steamrobots, or continuous galactic civil war, we dont see the cry for sexuality amongst the characters because it doesnt matter. People who cry for every little inclusion, are what causes the minefield to appear.

Ā 

And yes ambiguous it best

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6 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

They're much better off with characters have ambiguous sexuality.Ā Ā Ā Ā 

I really wish we got a David Bowie Ziggy Stardust-style Lust for the Crossroads 7. Would have been perfect.

Lindsey Sterling-Lust was great though too.
Ā 

Quote

I'm not a writer, but I think that the best way to do it is to just write the character like you would a straight character and slowly introduce details as they are appropriate to the story being told.

That's pretty much it. Everybody'sĀ freaking out over over-the-top stereotypes when in reality it's just normal character details. Overwatch handled it well with Tracer.

Ā 

Quote

like steamrobots, or continuous galactic civil war, we dont see the cry for sexuality amongst the characters because it doesnt matter

It's also because those games don't attract anywhere near the diverse playerbase as Wyrd does.

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I think Wyrd does a great job of being inclusive, and we've already gotten a crossdressing penguin, a bearded lady, a male showgirl, heroes and anti-heroes with a Western European, Indian, Slavic, Middle Eastern, East Asian and various African and/or African American/European background as well as at least one explicitly lesbian. We've got several people with hinted lgbt+ orientation, while one of the developer and the company owner confirming there are several sexual orientations amongst the characters in the game, as well as the writer of one of the stories confirming that he wrote on of the stories for two of the characters as a lesbian couple. I think Wyrd is doing pretty great here, actually!

Now, if one or more characters "come out" at a later point, that's just great, but I'd rather have ambiguous sexuality than stereotypes. It seems to be an annual summer thing, bashing one another on whether Wyrd is inclusive enough (women, ethnicity, sexual orientation). I think Wyrd is doing great, and I think asking questions is part of what makes them so great, but flame wars over lack of representation in the game is NOT something a great company like Wyrd deserves!

How about we try to spot the (most probable) non-heterosexual characters already present in the fluff instead?

So far we've got E.B. from TTB (as someone mentioned earlier), as well as Tara and Carina. Who want to add more?

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31 minutes ago, DocSchlock said:

I really wish we got a David Bowie Ziggy Stardust-style Lust for the Crossroads 7. Would have been perfect.

Lindsey Sterling-Lust was great though too.

Terrible idea: then I'd have been buying the entire box just for one model.Ā ^_^Ā (Some of us really like that Goblin King aesthetic, ok?!)

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1 hour ago, tmod said:

Ā 

How about we try to spot the (most probable) non-heterosexual characters already present in the fluff instead?

So far we've got E.B. from TTB (as someone mentioned earlier), as well as Tara and Carina. Who want to add more?

I'd put money on ironsides but I'm probably just stereotyping due to her look.

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Ironsides is a boring idea for a simple reason: being a lesbian isn't such a big deal to at least 80% of the potential audience. But calling out a man as gay questions their masculinity to a fair bit of the potential audience - and the masculinity of someone who admires them. Because of it having a greater impact, I'd DEFINITELY prefer calling out a man as homosexual.

So if we were to go full fujoshi, what male characters would make sense as potentially gay?

It would have to be someone about whom there existed no hints about straightness to avoid retconning, whose masculinity is already unquestioned (that leaves out Lynch, because he already comes across as a bottom!), and that to whom being gay would be in incidental part of their character - just something that is, or was, a part of his life. It would also have to be just one or two people, not a sudden flood, because people who are solely homosexual aren't a massive part of the population.

Making a new character who is gay is also bad IMHO, because that smacks of tokenism. It should be an ESTABLISHED character, someone we're already acquainted with.

It'd also have to be a subtle reference. I think that the culture of Malifaux is inherently prudish, even about hetero relationships; I can't imagine Sonnia saying, "Hey Lady J, you look a little tired; should the Judge have laid off his gavel after the second hour?" It might also be why Seamus is so shocking; he shoves all that hypocrisy in their faces by attacking them with the women who service the urges culture pretends does not exist.


I think Ramos tops the list. Sex may not matter to him any more, but a throwaway line about, "Even before I discovered power, women were of no interest to me" would help cement it. We've already got Cassandra walking towards him in nothing but stockings and a smile with no reaction, so the basis exists. But that might be seen as an easy out; after all, if he's not active he's not much of a threat to insecurely masculine folks. So yeah, he could be gay, but it's not very interesting overall. For that reason, things like Montressor or other beings beyond sex are out of the question.

That's why Von Schill captured my imagination. An unquestionable badass who's been part of Malifaux for better than ten years real time? The only thing we know about his off-duty time is that he plays questionably legal drinking games with a bunch of other shady-looking men from all walks of life. It might be a little hard to weave organically into a story; the aforementioned interview was a bit silly, but what about Hannah and VS looking over some new recruits training with something like,

A predatory smile crept over Hannah's face as she watched the men struggle through their turn on the obstacle course, the mud clinging to their skin. "I do prefer the ones with muscles."

A matching grin was half-hidden by Von Schill's mustache. "As do I."

She sighed and threw up her hands. "Whoever would have thought my CO would also be competition?"

would be interesting.

For newer recruits, Parker Burrows and Mad Dog, maybe, but I feel like they're a little TOO new for something like this. They'd go from "Bandits" to "Ass Bandits" and that's not very interesting.

Hm...

Abuela sighed happily as Perdita scrubbed harder. "Who would have thought I would live to have such dutiful grandchildren?" She glanced coyly over her shoulder. "I wonder if I will be blessed to hold great-grandchildren? Certainly not from Santiago."

Perdita stiffened, and her motions stopped for a moment before continuing. "He would marry and do his duty by his family, if we asked him."

"Yes, but it is not where his heart is..."

And then have a massive Neverborn attack on their citadel.


Note that my wife is sleeping right next to me and my reaction to homosexuality is, "Well, if it's important to you than fine, whatever" so I've got no real dog in this fight to demand 'representation'. (If I'm being 100% honest, I find transgender folks as boorish as anyone else who thinks one dramatic change will suddenly inflict happiness upon them and fix all that is wrong with their lives, but it does me no personal harm so they're free to do whatever they want.)

I'm just thinking about it from a "What would be both interesting and not too abrasive at the same time?"

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4 minutes ago, bertmac said:

Could be Seamus I mean he likes to dress his Belles up in frilly dresses but seems to not be sexually interested in them. Perhaps repressed trans issues!

The man only cares about death and is thus beyond issues of sexuality. Like I said, I think that he uses prostitutes to, in part, show the hypocrisy of the people - the fact that they're easy targets and make very shocking shock troops is no doubt part of that too. He COULD be, but it wouldn't be very interesting and it would undermine his existing character in a boring way.

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3 hours ago, goat90 said:

Women also owned businesses and land in real life back then, and it was against the social norm for a woman, but it was still rare. Not arguing the fact that Malifaux is different, this is like trying to argue the feasibility of space battle in star wars. We dont know in a fictional climate.

Ā 

Now from a media source, why does it matter if a character is explicitly gay or not? Why can't you guys answer that? Homosexuality, even heterosexuality doesnt have a place in every piece of mass consumed media. Ive read plenty of books and played games, where I never thought, "Gee I wish I knew if this character was gay or straight" Just enjoy the damned fluff and game, assume whatever sexual orientation you want. This sexuality doesn't really play a huge roll in the over arching story or trying to tag sexuality to a characters identity, doesn't really work.

Ā 

And yes the internet is a strong answer, if you get angry at me using Autistic the way I did, be careful about other words, and memes as well (see my profile pic as an example). If you're going to call out a word being used in a way you don't like, and even get angry, social interaction within the confines of the internet is no place for you my friend.

Quoted for Truth.

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5 hours ago, Astrella said:

So why do straight characters just get to be characters, but lgbt characters don't? And please, acknowledging that lgbt characters exist is hardly promotion. You are completely misrepresenting people's positions, and if I might add, sounding quite similar to bigots that are all "don't let kids know gay people exist cause they icky".

There being a couple LGBT characters in Malifaux has literally no bad effects on straight / cis people, and positive ones for lgbt people.

Labels are given for the purpose of sharing information more easily. If you have a problem with the label of LGBT characters then you should also have a problem with the thread creator and the various others who have used it.Ā 

My problem is not with the inclusion of such characters. My problem is the idea that until such a time that a race, religion, sexual orientation etc is depicted in any form in media in a positive manner that the creators of that media must be opposed to that race, religion, sexual orientation until its positive inclusion. To be frank such thinking is toxic and can be very off putting. If we follow the logic that LGBT people are suffering or are excludedĀ because straight people were mentioned explicitly and LGBT people were not then we need to start writing down every race and culture that hasn't been mentioned yet and tell Wyrd that they are being excluded too.Ā Just because you haven't gotten the LGBT character that you identify with doesn't mean that Wyrd's fluff is not diverse. It also doesn't mean that they are against them or their inclusion. IFĀ they are not included then all that means is: they are not included,Ā yet.

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