Prompt enemy crew

[benjoewoo]

Assume Sybelle successfully hits Colette with the Bleeder Lash attack, triggering the Comply trigger. Assume Seamus is leading the crew containing Sybelle, and Colette is an opposing master. Assume Seamus has the Bag O' Tools upgrade. Assume all three models are within 1" of each other.

Can Sybelle Comply Colette to prompt Seamus into utilizing the Ml attack printed on Bag O'Tools to hit Colette?

[solkan]

9 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Myyrä @Bengt

I agree with both of you on that it is a very reasonable assumption. That is the way I play it and I was mostly looking for something more solid since it'sinteresting to challenge your own assumptions.

For reference, January 2015:

Quote

There is no such concept as "chain of control" written in the rules of Malifaux.

 

The Actions simply do what they say. Prompt lets the model take an action, unless otherwise specified, players control their own models during actions.

 

 

Is that solid enough? 

[Ludvig]

Some quotes of the abilities would really help but I'm going to assume no. You are friendly to Sybelle but not her entire crew so you can't prompt the other models in her crew. You could prompt Sybelle, attack Colette and declare the kill trigger, as you are controlling Colette you can then choose to not discard cards or prevent damage but die instead.

[Adran]

Making Colette Friendly to Sybelle does not make her friendly to the rest of your crew. Prompt can only target a friendly model, so for colette that would be the rest of her crew, and Sybelle. 

So Its a No for your question. Seamus is not a friendly model

I think there was a ruling somewhere that prompt doesn't give you permission to control the model that you prompt, so if you prompted Cassandra, then the Colette player would still control cassandra during that prompt even though the Seamus player was controlling Colette for the prompt.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Making Colette Friendly to Sybelle does not make her friendly to the rest of your crew. Prompt can only target a friendly model, so for colette that would be the rest of her crew, and Sybelle. 

So Its a No for your question. Seamus is not a friendly model

I think there was a ruling somewhere that prompt doesn't give you permission to control the model that you prompt, so if you prompted Cassandra, then the Colette player would still control cassandra during that prompt even though the Seamus player was controlling Colette for the prompt.

I've heard that too but I'm not sure if that was a ruling or wishful thinking from Collette players. If a model takes an action due to something I sid to it Ishould be controlling that action 

[Bengt]

43 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I've heard that too but I'm not sure if that was a ruling or wishful thinking from Collette players. If a model takes an action due to something I sid to it Ishould be controlling that action 

Obey, Heed my Voice, Comply, Alpha, Echoes of the Void all explicitly say who controls the resulting Action(s), Prompt say "the target may perform a (1) Action" (though whoever controls Colette will do the push). My stance is that the person who hired a model controls all its actions unless a rule or talent says differently.

[Adran]

43 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I've heard that too but I'm not sure if that was a ruling or wishful thinking from Collette players. If a model takes an action due to something I sid to it Ishould be controlling that action 

prompt doesn't give you control over the model. It just lets it make a 1 action.  Obey and similar things give control of the model to the owner of the "obey" action .

 

[benjoewoo]

Quick corollary to main question--if I utilize Perdita's Obey, targeting opposing Cassandra, succeed, and take the Understudy action to use the opposing Colette's Prompt, could I prompt my Francisco to take a 1 AP action?

I guess the real question is--to Obey type effects inherently change what models are friendly/enemy to each other? In Sybelle's case the card explicitly states the complied model treats Sybelle as friendly, but Obey does not, for example.

 

For reference, Obey:

Target non-Leader model
immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model’s controller.
A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again
during the same Activation.

 

Understudy: Take a (1) Ca Action belonging to target friendly non-Leader model
within 8”. This Action may target friendly Leader models if they have the Showgirl
Characteristic. This Action may only be used once per Turn.

 

Prompt: Push target other friendly model up to 3" in
any direction, then the target may perform a (1) Action.

[Bengt]

33 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Quick corollary to main question--if I utilize Perdita's Obey, targeting opposing Cassandra, succeed, and take the Understudy action to use the opposing Colette's Prompt, could I prompt my Francisco to take a 1 AP action?

I guess the real question is--to Obey type effects inherently change what models are friendly/enemy to each other? In Sybelle's case the card explicitly states the complied model treats Sybelle as friendly, but Obey does not, for example.

 

For reference, Obey:

Target non-Leader model
immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model’s controller.
A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again
during the same Activation.

 

Understudy: Take a (1) Ca Action belonging to target friendly non-Leader model
within 8”. This Action may target friendly Leader models if they have the Showgirl
Characteristic. This Action may only be used once per Turn.

 

Prompt: Push target other friendly model up to 3" in
any direction, then the target may perform a (1) Action.

Understudy->Prompt would have to target a model friendly to Cassandra, which in this scenario is only models in her original crew.

[Bengt]

33 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Quick corollary to main question--if I utilize Perdita's Obey, targeting opposing Cassandra, succeed, and take the Understudy action to use the opposing Colette's Prompt, could I prompt my Francisco to take a 1 AP action?

I guess the real question is--to Obey type effects inherently change what models are friendly/enemy to each other? In Sybelle's case the card explicitly states the complied model treats Sybelle as friendly, but Obey does not, for example.

 

For reference, Obey:

Target non-Leader model
immediately performs a (1) Action chosen and controlled by this model’s controller.
A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again
during the same Activation.

 

Understudy: Take a (1) Ca Action belonging to target friendly non-Leader model
within 8”. This Action may target friendly Leader models if they have the Showgirl
Characteristic. This Action may only be used once per Turn.

 

Prompt: Push target other friendly model up to 3" in
any direction, then the target may perform a (1) Action.

Understudy->Prompt would have to target a model friendly to Cassandra, which in this scenario is only models in her original crew.

[Ludvig]

8 hours ago, Bengt said:

Obey, Heed my Voice, Comply, Alpha, Echoes of the Void all explicitly say who controls the resulting Action(s), Prompt say "the target may perform a (1) Action" (though whoever controls Colette will do the push). My stance is that the person who hired a model controls all its actions unless a rule or talent says differently.

It could be that those abilities stated something that prompt forgot to since they didn't think about obeying anyone to prompt someone else. It wouldn't be the first time different actions have different levels of clarity because of card space constraints or simple ease of design. All of the actions you mention that clarify it is controlled by the acting player can target enemy models. Lucius' friendly target abilities don't specify it either.

Is there anything explicitly backing your point of view? I know you can only activate your own models (because the book says so) but it seems entirely reasonable that whoever is controlling the current activation controls the actions because of being activating player rather than owning player.

I did a search on "control" and the closest I got was that "your crew represents the characters under your control" or something like it which seemed more like flavour text than actual rules since character isn't a game term and because of the paragraph in general. I may well have missed something more explicit.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Is there anything explicitly backing your point of view? I know you can only activate your own models (because the book says so) but it seems entirely reasonable that whoever is controlling the current activation controls the actions because of being activating player rather than owning player.

To me the wording of Prompt in contrast to Obey is enough. Obey forces another model to do something "...target ... immediately performs...", Prompts allows another model to do something "... target may perform...". Because of this language I think the burden of evidence falls on the person claiming that there is a chain of control in Prompt.

[Myyrä]

11 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I've heard that too but I'm not sure if that was a ruling or wishful thinking from Collette players. If a model takes an action due to something I sid to it Ishould be controlling that action 

Justin said there is no chain of control in Malifaux, and there is no evidence to the contrary. Actions just do what they say they do, and Prompt says a friendly model may take an action.

[Ludvig]

@Myyrä @Bengt

I agree with both of you on that it is a very reasonable assumption. That is the way I play it and I was mostly looking for something more solid since it'sinteresting to challenge your own assumptions.

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, solkan said:

For reference, January 2015:

 

Is that solid enough? 

It is, thanks!

M3e could have it in the main rulebook but devposts are the third best thing after faqs.

[Fazza92]

The models not change they're friendly models indipendent by who control they o they're actions.