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Why play Ten Thunders


whodares

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So I've been playing Ten Thunders for a year now and I've reached a point where I'm going to throw them away. They always sound so great on paper, but then you get on the board and they are powerless.

 

My latest example

Extraction against neverborn. Lost 5-10 of which 3 points were given to me to not make me feel as bad.

The setup was:

Extraction

Claim Jump

Dig Their Graves

Frame For Murder

Search The Ruins

Covert Breakthrough

 

My list was Shenlong, 1 Peasant, Yu, Emissary, LRM, 2 Brothers and a Sniper.

Opponent played Titania, Gorar, Emissary, Teddy, Tooth, Rougarou, Waldgeist and another model that wasn't even needed.

 

Winning this against Neverborn seems impossible to me for the following reasons:

1)Extraction: Their Emmisary can make the entire zone of your board within 3" of the Extraction Marker Hazardous Terrain. Get withing 3" of the 50mm terrain marker and take a wk14!!!! duel or suffer 1/4/5 damage. The only way to get rid of it is by spending at least 2 AP (1 walk, 1 blast attack) for a 0 action of the emissary. We damage our own crew and spend at least 1 action on 2 activations. Good thing we have so many blasts, right? Oh right, using the Blasts of the Emissary also works if your enemy wants to use focus and means you have to focus up for the attack first as well. So then it becomes 3 AP (walk + focus + attack) + a (0) action of the emissary to get rid of the (0) action of the Mysterious Emissary so you can actually come close to the marker without instantly dying or cheating out high cards. Bonus note is their Emissary can drop 2 of those markers and they can both trigger their walk duel as they are separate terrain. Good luck getting any points from Extraction!

2) Claim Jump: Doable, but rather hard with all the lures the Neverborn have. Ever seen the Tooth (Autumn Knight with lure) team up with a pounce model? Her 0 triggers pounce and her attack has a built-in push. It's a 6-stat attack as well with decent damage. Did I also mention her lure gives her a free attack against you? So basicly you get (0) attack + pounce and 2 attacks + pounce. Bonus points if their emissary is nearby. They get +-flips on all those attacks. Even then they just have to engage your scheme runner and stand close to the marker. Scheme disrupted :)

3) Dig Their Graves: Hard for anyone that is not Titania. Sustained killing has never been the forte of the Thunders and now they even couple it to being close to a scheme marker.

4) Search The Ruins becomes impossible thesame reason as Extraction and Claim Jump. Even if you use a Wandering River Style Mighty Gust to blow the markers there, they can still delete the markers unless it's the very last action you take. In my case Titania just walked up and did a 0 to remove all 3 markers. If you bring a model within a few inch of the center, it dies.

5) Frame For Murder: Doable by both factions but easier for Neverborn as they have an easier time knowing which models you will be targetting.

6) Covert Breakthrough: This becomes a question of WRM vs Silurid. Silurid has way better defenses (Perfect Camouflage) than the WRM (Butterfly Jump) and still packs a very decent punch when cornered. Also don't forget the lures they have which can turn half the map into a murder zone from which there is no escape.

 

I've been going through GG17 schemes and strats and I honestly haven't found a single one which Ten Thunders can actually do better than Neverborn. I've been playing Thunders for a year now and I have never really seen a scheme pool and thought to myselkf "Oh, now I can deny my opponent points" ever since the Emissary came out.

 

What exactly am I missing here with the Thunders? Why do I always feel so helpless when I'm playing them? Why do I feel like every single other faction can outdo us on everything (except scheme markers IF YOU TAKE SHENLONG AND YU)

 

A bit of a rant, but I feel like the Thunders are one of the worst factions in the game due to not having any decent models or any real synergy in the models when comparing them to the other factions.

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Hmmm, my only thought was 'Where to start?' ... O.o

TT have tons of synergy and so much scheme-marker control, it's almost comical. Just one example - you use LRM and you have trouble with Dig their graves? That scheme practically fulfills itself with one ot two monks (and somebody to smack the opponent down).

Like I said ... where to start?

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I often experience the opposite. On paper the Ten Thunders tend to feel a bit underwhelming but in practice I always get very good results out of them.

It is a rather broad subject though... Focussing on only what you've given us here; The biggest problem I'm seeing from the start is that there's nothing really scary on your list. And by there being nothing particularly scary your opponent can be much more brazen in their plans. 

With the pushes TT can give, getting anything to a relatively safe corner for breakthrough is easily doable, whether you do it turn 2 or turn 4. 

Frame for murder is something you can just about force an opponent into. Be obnoxious enough and you'll be guaranteed 2 points - be scary enough and the odds of it becoming 3 rise significantly.

Search the Ruins should be very doable with a TTB as long as you don't let him stand there just to fend by himself. 

Dig their graves is not gonna happen with that list. But in general, if you as a TT want to kill you will kill. And if you have Yu OR Shen anywhere near you can just about guarantee that scheme marker.

Claim Jump is indeed very doable, and with the amount of scheme markers that tend to be flying around in a Shenlong crew you should have enough to litter the centerline. 

And Extraction being a real good fit for the opposing Emissary is simply something you'll simply have to play around. There's plenty of space in the 6" bubble that you can still stand in. Or use the 3 extra cards a turn you're getting from your Emissary to simply stand wherever you want. And most importantly, if it's that big a thorn in your side, kill the Emissary. If it's dropping markers near the center of the board you should be able to have something big smash his face in turn 1. And if he's waiting you out, be sure to have your entire crew lined up in the center space before he gets there. Have your sniper take potshots at him from afar until your beater gets there. And have it be tagged for Frame for Murder and it'll be a win-win.

More than anything, you clearly have a defeatist notion on TT or perhaps particularly the TT-NVB match-up. There's two people I play regularly that tend to lose against me and you immediately feel that at the slightest setback they lose all faith, declare TT OP and that everything that's happening is bullshit and that their faction is clearly lacking. If you let yourself be dominated by the fear of that Emissary, or whatever trick they bring, they will control your entire game. And if you're not bring anything scary in return, you will have no control over theirs.

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Dig their graves: Yasinori pushed up with a few scheme markers by Yu and then go to town? Bring models that can survive the damage flip from the hazardous terrain?

Bring Sidir who can't be lured and put a focused shot into one of their models? That means they're halfway dead turn 1.

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1 hour ago, Mutter said:

Hmmm, my only thought was 'Where to start?' ... O.o

TT have tons of synergy and so much scheme-marker control, it's almost comical. Just one example - you use LRM and you have trouble with Dig their graves? That scheme practically fulfills itself with one ot two monks (and somebody to smack the opponent down).

Like I said ... where to start?

Mind letting me know what synergy you speak of? I feel we barely have any OR that synergy is better used in the native faction of said model. Yan Lo and Lynch spring to mind, which are much stronger in their own faction than in the Thunders.

 

9 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

...

How will you protect your brother if they have an 8" place and lure? He also has to stand in the Hazardous Terrain markers the Mysterious Emissary dropped on turn 1 and 2, which is not good for the health of Said Brother.

You claim plenty of space in the 6" bubble to stand around. If he drops both markers to block that off, you have no space to stand around. 3" from either side and a 50mm marker. Well, unless you go stand on HIS part of the map, but I wish you the best of luck on that in neverbron crews with lures.

 

Killing the Emissary turn 1 when he can stand decently far away from the centerline in order to drop his marker. If he moves up, he gets to drop his marker, which is a big PitA to remove and either burns cards or health.

 

Covert breakthrough only scores points at the end of the game. This leaves the enemy plenty of time to react to it. But on Extraction they don't even need to react to it as they get Extraction for free while you lose wounds and activations to the hazardous terrain.

 

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Dig their graves: Yasinori pushed up with a few scheme markers by Yu and then go to town? Bring models that can survive the damage flip from the hazardous terrain?

Bring Sidir who can't be lured and put a focused shot into one of their models? That means they're halfway dead turn 1.

Pushing up Yasunori will get you 1 point from Dig Their Graves, maybe 2 if you get lucky. After that he dies to the focus fire from the enemy. Sure, he can tie them up 1 turn. Let's just not exaggerate and say he is tanky enough to survive a turn. He has armor +1 and -flip to wp-targetting attack actions. put him next to Tooth and Rougarou and he dies that same turn in a single activation by Tooth. Mi6 with +flip to attack from the Emissary vs def 5 and then a pounce of Mi6 +flip vs def 5 for 2 attacks in a row WILL kill a yasunori rather easily. And yes, Yasunori will have to go inthere as he has to actually kill things.

And let's not forget the enemy can just remove scheme markers, unless you bring a brother upthere as well. If that brother gets up there, he will die the next.

 

Sidir is also 9 points. This means you have to drop either Yu or the Emissary yourself unless you only want 7 activations. Focussed shots get semi-negated by terrain which Waldgeists can drop or that is just natively there.

 

 

If you are so convinced that the Thunders are good, make me a list that could actually WIN the matchups vs neverborn. So far I haven't found a single one. For me I find it easier to just pick neverborn, get the Emissary and keep him in the back giving all the STRONG minions they have + flips to the attack actions that they can safely do thanks to to places, pushes,  lures and Hazardous terrain zone control.

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@whodares

With McCabe as your master you can careen into them, likely killing something decent. When you charge you try to make sure that you end up in base to base contact with a couple of lurers so that you are immune to lures from those models. You will also have df 7, wp 6 qith positives. Not sure if I would use the Yasinpri there.

When placing markers through any means except interacts it is allowed to place the markers in a pile under the base of the model. That makes them really hard to remove with most marker-targeting abilities (especially if  the model is Sidir who can't be moved or pushed by enemies).

There is always the problem of lists not winning games but playstyles winning (and I don't have time to try and make a good list today, might try tomorrow). 

If they are scoring for extraction they can't reasonably be safe from your models at the same time.

Focusing into aoft cover still lets you cheat damage. That and not being at a negative to hit is rhe major thing (except or snipers who also have plus flips built in).

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The salt is overflowing.

I think part of the problem is that you're playing into Titania's game too much. She eats scheme markers and loves placing down her own...so don't take those schemes.

Also Ten Thunder Brother's have that aura where friendly scheme markers can't be removed so that should help a lot, unless Titania can get around that (I'm not sure).

So, game plan for this pool.

Shenlong, Wandering, Servant of 5 Dragons(cuz Neverborn), LRM upgrade

Peasant

Emissary, Dawn Conflux

LRM

Lone Swordsman, RT

Izamu, Equality

TTB x2

Kill them and hold the middle. Score Search the Ruins with the TTB after they're dead, or push up afterwards for Breaththrough. You should be aggressive, and likely trade 2 VP for Frame (Swordsman) so that's a wash. Hungry Land markers are...not...that...scary. Sure it's a 14 Walk duel, so save some cards for it if you're nervous. Izamu doesn't care with his Armor+2 and heals from Shen/LRM/Equality, and the Emissary can be behind, smashing fools with his 'free' Focus+2. Remember those Silurids? Try hiding when I still have a +/+.

Dropped Yu since Titania will eat his markers anyways and you should be focused on killing things. Shen and Emissary provide all the crew support needed to get to, and hold the middle.

OR, you can give up, sell your stuff, and play Neverborn. It's up to you, if 10T don't speak to you (and apparently you can't be swayed into liking them), don't play them.

 

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14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@whodares

With McCabe as your master you can careen into them, likely killing something decent. When you charge you try to make sure that you end up in base to base contact with a couple of lurers so that you are immune to lures from those models. You will also have df 7, wp 6 qith positives. Not sure if I would use the Yasinpri there.

When placing markers through any means except interacts it is allowed to place the markers in a pile under the base of the model. That makes them really hard to remove with most marker-targeting abilities (especially if  the model is Sidir who can't be moved or pushed by enemies).

There is always the problem of lists not winning games but playstyles winning (and I don't have time to try and make a good list today, might try tomorrow). 

If they are scoring for extraction they can't reasonably be safe from your models at the same time.

Focusing into aoft cover still lets you cheat damage. That and not being at a negative to hit is rhe major thing (except or snipers who also have plus flips built in).

I admit I don't have McCabe and haven't seen much of him. Feedback from other players tells me he is much stronger when played in Guild, which would disqualify him for me. If the feedback I've gotten about him is wrong, I will retract my words and admit you are right.

Placing markers un a model or closeby a model for StR means that model will be forced to go into the hazardous terrain and subsequently into lure range as well. I am not sure how that "Laugh Off" works against a place effect, but my gut tells me that a place effect also doesn't work on him. He could blockade the markers for a couple of turns, but you just have to make sure you don't move him in the slightest or he can take another hazardous terrain duel. But I will agree with you that Sidir would be a good choice IF the rest of the crew lived long enough to actually allow you to stand on the markers.

 

I played a sniper, but the sh5 is his biggest weakness. He got 2 shots with Yu in proximity, so he got 2x sh6 at the start. That was about the only time he ever did damage. Sh5 isn't reliable and he also can't shoot into engagements. I find Sniper to have been good in the second book when he came out, but has been lackluster afterwards. This is more a problem with the power creep that has been introduced slightly in Malifaux of which a very good thread passed a while ago. The conclusion was the average Def and WP of models has been increasing whenever a new book came out and that pretty much doomed all sh5 - ml5 models. It's the reason why you never soo a Jorogumo. 9ss minion with ml5 ... Have fun sending a 9ss model on scheme runner killer duty.

25 minutes ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

The salt is overflowing.

I think part of the problem is that you're playing into Titania's game too much. She eats scheme markers and loves placing down her own...so don't take those schemes.

Also Ten Thunder Brother's have that aura where friendly scheme markers can't be removed so that should help a lot, unless Titania can get around that (I'm not sure).

So, game plan for this pool.

Shenlong, Wandering, Servant of 5 Dragons(cuz Neverborn), LRM upgrade

Peasant

Emissary, Dawn Conflux

LRM

Lone Swordsman, RT

Izamu, Equality

TTB x2

Kill them and hold the middle. Score Search the Ruins with the TTB after they're dead, or push up afterwards for Breaththrough. You should be aggressive, and likely trade 2 VP for Frame (Swordsman) so that's a wash. Hungry Land markers are...not...that...scary. Sure it's a 14 Walk duel, so save some cards for it if you're nervous. Izamu doesn't care with his Armor+2 and heals from Shen/LRM/Equality, and the Emissary can be behind, smashing fools with his 'free' Focus+2. Remember those Silurids? Try hiding when I still have a +/+.

Dropped Yu since Titania will eat his markers anyways and you should be focused on killing things. Shen and Emissary provide all the crew support needed to get to, and hold the middle.

OR, you can give up, sell your stuff, and play Neverborn. It's up to you, if 10T don't speak to you (and apparently you can't be swayed into liking them), don't play them.

 

 

Salt is overflowing indeed because I find that our faction needs a boost.

Titania cannot get past the TTB scheme marker protection directly, but she has a ca6 vs wp duel (wp5) for brother that places him in base contact with her. Protection of markers is now gone.

You mention to kill them and hold the middle. Do note they have lure and pushes into pounce. In order to get close to them, you walk through hazardous terrain. Please don't tell me you think your opponent will let you heal your models before luring them away out of range of your healers.

You place a model to the front and it gets instantly lured into rougarou and Tooth. Lone swordsman dies from that as his only protection is Hard to Kill (and bulletproof, but that doesn't help against melee attacks). Izamu can hold it down a turn, but you have to move your entire force through the Hazardous terrain in order to be able to heal him AND get in range for the Extraction scheme. So we get to the end of turn 2 and either your entire force has taken damage from the Marker or did not get in range for Extraction. In case of the second point, the marker is now placed 3" further away from you. Good luck in getting anymore points from it in that case.

I understand what you're trying to do here, but this is a "Good in Theory" crew. Due to Gorar the first minion you kill comes back. Even if you send your Izamu or LS on a suicide mission, the model they killed comes back and you are down on a big damage dealer.

Save some cards for the walk duel from hazardous terrain is what I've been doing. You do need a 9 on a lot of models, which is already a fairly good hand. I don't know about the hands you've been getting, but I barely every get 3+ cards on 9+ in my hand, even after stoning and getting 3 more from LRM. I must be having really bad luck?

Even then that single (0) action is now draining your hand or high cards from the deck every turn or dealing 1/4/5 damage. Healing 4 damage requires 2 AP from Low River monk or Low River Shenlong/Yu. Unless they have a defensive and the tright trigger, then they can heal 4 damage in 1 AP.

Emissary can be behind, but he only has 7" range. This means he will have to stand in the Walk duel Hazardous Terrain in order to be in range to land attacks. The neverborn player will not place markers on his own half of the map to start the game off, so you have to walk the entire distance to the Extraction point through the terrain while he can sit there freely in his soft cover from the Waldgeist.

I will give you props on building the list. It looks really solid on paper, but once you get the game, it will fall apart quickly.

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I've heard many players argue McCabe is a lot better in thunders. I usually play him in guild myself and have only tried a game or two in the thunders. You could try to search the forums for the discussion on McCabe and read pros and cons for yourself from players who havetried both variants more.

You could try getting Titania yourself (or borrow her for a game) and see if it is as easy as you think. Thatis usually very helpful to identify what moves your opponent does that shut you down.

Mei Feng with vent steam a couple of times would mean that your opponent will be at a bunch of negatives unless trying to ml you (in which case they are suffering damage from their own hazardous terrain). If you pick a crew with good wk values or that can take the damage on the chin you will force your opponent to come to you and disrupt their plan.

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I think you've been greatly misled about McCabe and Yan Lo being stronger in Guild/Resurrectionists*. In 10T, McCabe has access to bigger scarier minions to reactivate (Dawn Serpent), Terracotta Warriors (to protect Luna when running Guild Hounds and to swap McCabe upgrades if you picked the wrong thing), an actually good generic totem which works amazingly well with him and best of all, nearly all the really strong models he'd want to hire from Guild - imo guild hounds and austringers - are available in 10T too due to being Guardsmen or Black Sheep (the exception probably being Francisco). Yan Lo can get Recalled Training every turn via Terracotta Warriors, plus he can take the Terracotta Warrior damage hand-off condition from Chiaki to make him a bit more durable. Plus the both of them get access to generally better generic upgrades (recalled training!!), Sensei Yu, and the Emissary both of which are really really strong support models.

 

If you go McCabe, you can bring Promises (I like to pop it on Queeg or Sidir so I can keep three upgrades on McCabe) and hand out upgrades for :+fates to Wp in addition to their effects to help vs lures. McCabe is also very good at Claim Jump which imo is the most important scheme in the game to be good at because it's really easy and available in every game - he can either take two doggos and have them do it, or just toss out Nimble to a fairly resilient model and have them complete Claim Jump on its own. Claim Jump in 10T is also fairly accessible to anyone given how easily 10T has access to Fast via Sensei Yu or the Emissary. I probably wouldn't charge him in like Ludvig suggested (though that could work), but I'd have him mostly sit a little bit back and shoot out Slow as much as possible. 10T is one of the better shooting factions, and Neverborn are one of the worst so if you can hit a couple of melee models with slow to stop them being so able to engage, you can pepper them with bullets from afar, or even more annoying, throw up Izamu or the like with a 3" engagement range. You can also push friendlies out of the hazardous aura with his (0).

I think it's kind of unproductive to reject so many masters from the faction and then claim it's too weak. Balance in this game is done on a faction by faction basis, not a master by master one, so you could easily be rejecting the masters who are perfect for your scheme pool or opponent (and McCabe is such a strong generalist that it's likely he is).

*I suspect you have also been misled about Lynch but I don't have any experience playing him because I hate the hungering darkness and wish he was just a casino themed master without the weird neverborn stuff

 

As a generic solution to the hazardous terrain specifically: Samurai? At least, one Samurai with favour of jigoku (or the one that prevents damage during its activation if I'm misremembering). If they're lured in, armour makes the hazardous a 1/2/3 and if they're not, then no damage at all. Plus they're immune to any Df duel or damage shenanigans during their activation.

 

Also finally to answer the question of why play Ten Thunders? Simple: Fast Burt Jebsen with Recalled Training.

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I'll echo Ludvig in that you should ask to switch crews to see what your opponent is thinking behind the scenes, so to speak. A lot of what your describing is serendipity for your opponent and hell for you, when after a couple games things could swing either way. I know I've had games where my deck is on fire (and with all the Focus in 10T this happens a lot) and my opponent can't flip higher than min for anything, and the opposite happens a lot too. Not every Lure is going to go off, especially the 10T higher-than-average WP, and not everything your opponent can do will happen. Sometimes it does, and that sucks, but you can usually deal with anything.

A good technique to countering lure shenanigans is to dogpile them. Be aggressive. Sure they lure something in, but then your beaters show up and smack them right back. That list only has one anyway (and Titania but it isn't technically Lure) so it isn't that scary. Rouggys are fragile, kill them. Kill everything! Sorry, the Guild in me is showing.

If they lure something big like Izamu away, they have either, 1) left him within range of the heals, 2) pulled him out of Extraction into their crew whereby he prevents THEM from being in the Extraction zone, or 3) Lured him away from the crew and away from their scary beaters, which in this crew there is only Teddy with Ret. Eye and he falls down like a paper castle. So I wouldn't be worried about it too much. Getting TTB's placed in harm's way sucks but they should be behind everything else and if Titania is close enough to get them, well then I have a couple attacks coming her way.

I'll counter with that list I made up isn't just good on paper since I've used it well in the past, and variations of it. It is anecdotal evidence, sure, but it has worked for me so maybe it can work for you. Using a LRM's Ap to heal is probably the best use for them anyway, and condition removal. They are 4ss giving you heals, how is that a waste?

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12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I've heard many players argue McCabe is a lot better in thunders. I usually play him in guild myself and have only tried a game or two in the thunders. You could try to search the forums for the discussion on McCabe and read pros and cons for yourself from players who havetried both variants more.

You could try getting Titania yourself (or borrow her for a game) and see if it is as easy as you think. Thatis usually very helpful to identify what moves your opponent does that shut you down.

Mei Feng with vent steam a couple of times would mean that your opponent will be at a bunch of negatives unless trying to ml you (in which case they are suffering damage from their own hazardous terrain). If you pick a crew with good wk values or that can take the damage on the chin you will force your opponent to come to you and disrupt their plan.

Point taken. I will look up some more intel on McCabe instead of just relying on the people from my local meta.

The problem for me is not really Titania, but more the strong minions that the Neverborn have. Getting something like Tooth and Rougarou in the 6" bubble of the Emissary makes them extreme forces to deal with. Getting a +-flip on almost everything you do is really, really strong. It allows Tooth to cheat the lure against Yasunori, even though Yasunori has a built in - flip to wp targetting. Getting ml6 attacks with + flips onto it is also really strong. These minions are dishing out thesame amount of damage as an Izamu or LS just because they have ml6 +flip. This damage will come additionally to the damage you took from walking through the hazardous terrain placed by the Emissary.

 

It feels to me that a lot of people here are looking at a lot of things separately and then it's pretty OK and I'm just overreacting. I'll try and demonstrate what I mean.

You have 21 cards that are 9+ to pass the walk duel from the hazardous terrain. Even if you pass all the checks, you need to bring in at least 3 people through the terrain in order not to take the damage. That leaves you with 18 9+ cards left in your deck and hand combined. You will not get everything lucky flipped, so you have to cheat at least 1 of those 3. So now you lost a decent card from your hand and have less options of manipulating results. Tooth challenges you with a +-flip. You will have to cheat this one if you don't want to get closer to Tooth.  You get unlucky and your opponent cheats higher. Now you've lost 2 high cards from your hand and your opponent 1. You are at 17 9+ cards in your deck and hand due to cheating. You get pushed to Tooth next to Rougarou. Rougarou can take a pounce ml6 with a +-flip thanks to the Emissary. You decide to take the duel and lose, but don't burn a high card. You take 2 damage because the opponent got minimum damage. You can now take an attack against Tooth (Challenge of Summer), which fails. She can take an attack against you which you cheat in order not to get into the push chain with Rougarou.

 

Current situation: 17 9+ cards left, you took 2 damage and your hand is thinned out by 2 high cards.

Tooth attacks. with ml6 +flip. You have to cheat this one, because else she gets a push which will once again trigger Rougarou. This happens a total of 2 times. Even if you manage to cheat all those away, you have needed to cheat 4!! high cards. It seams reasonable to assume the other player also has some decent cards.

You don't have enough cards to save your model from a single activation by Tooth unless Tooth gets really unlucky on the +-flip attacks. Tooth's damage track is 2/3/4 with a trigger to get +-flip on damage. Rougarou has 2/3/4 with rams trigger for +-flip on damage.

 

You somehow manage to survive the carnage, push Tooth or Rougarou into the hazardous terrain and kill them. Gorar gets sacrificed and the minion is resummoned (and can activate again because it's a "new" minion).

 

This is the situation I'm describing and only features 4 models: Gorar (backup plan in case a minion dies), Tooth, Rougarou and and Emissary within 6" of both to give +-flips to attack. Yes, I admit this is a heavy investment in Soulstone cost. 25 Soulstone cost, but you get a whole lot in return. 3" past centerline is now Hazardous terrain that your opponent has to cross if he wants to get points. Your opponent can go via the sides, but then loses out on victory points. The first model your oppoent puts in the hazardous terrain will die due the ca6 +flip wp Challenge of Summer that brings you into the Rougarou death loop.

 

I have had this happen several games and I just can't see a way out of it. Because of the combo between Tooth and Rougarou, I feel like there is no way to actually get close to those models and be able to kill one of them. And even if you kill 1 of them, sacrifice the Gorar and get it back with a renewed "Slow" activation.

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You're setting up a worst case scenario imo. In your example your opponent is always flipping really well and you're flipping badly. I'd also suggest caring less about taking damage. 10T is probably the second strongest healing faction and even so, there are acceptable losses. If it wasn't scoring you points, it wasn't that big of a deal to lose.

6 minutes ago, whodares said:

 And even if you kill 1 of them, sacrifice the Gorar and get it back with a renewed "Slow" activation.

Kill the Gorar first.

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Here's a fun situation. Shen and the Emissary push Izamu up with Fast. When they Lure him he may take 1-2 points of hazardous damage and get a couple free attacks on him doing 2-4 damage total after armor. Then they have a 4AP Izamu in their face with RT, who can also heal himself, and smash face. Not even including the free attack given from the Knight, nor the free attack he gets if he dies later. Sounds fine to me.

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It sounds like you're shooting down tactics that "look great on paper" with your on-paper scenario. I personally prefer a hyper aggressive approach and have a lot of succes with it. If your opponent uses his Emissary to quickly deploy that marker in the center, any TT crew can get 2 models in his face turn one. Especially Shenlong and McCabe. And sure, you might lose one, but if the Emissary is that big of a hangup for you it sounds like a price worth paying. As for those two, they're hardly gonna last a dedicated assault. An Izamu, especially fast, is going to crush them. As will most TT beaters, really. 

Like I said before, you're very set in a defeatist mindset and are constantly judging things based on what will happen when they will succeed perfectly against your endless string of terrible luck. You've got the idea stuck in your head that trying anything will mean you get crushed, and it's letting your opponent dictate your flow and bend you completely to their tricks while completely ignoring the things you can bring and how they will impact them and their playstyle because if everything lines up perfectly for him, you'll lose. You can do things too. And if you do them well, your opponent will have to react to that. 

As for the masters, I honestly feel they're almost always better in TT than in their respective factions. Lynch is the only one where I'd say it could be a toss-up simply because I haven't seen him played in Neverborn often and even then I prefer the high flipping playstyle.

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6 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

You're setting up a worst case scenario imo. In your example your opponent is always flipping really well and you're flipping badly. I'd also suggest caring less about taking damage. 10T is probably the second strongest healing faction and even so, there are acceptable losses. If it wasn't scoring you points, it wasn't that big of a deal to lose.

Kill the Gorar first.

I agree with your assessment to a certain point. My assessment shows that you need to cheat a whole lot more cards than your opponent. It seems likely that will happen due to all the +-flips he gets. I don't mind sacrificing a model, but that combo can 1-turn kill swordsman (or Izamu if they get lucky) before he can even retaliate.

 

Killing Gorar is not so easy as you need to have LoS on him to engage. The bases of Rougarou and Tooth aren't small by any means (50mm iirc) and he can easily hide behind them. He just has to be within 6" of the center of the board. If there's terrain to cover his sides, he's even safer. The only way I can see to really get to him is by taking a sniper up high and shoot him. But he has 6 def, so that's not really going to be great.

4 minutes ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

Here's a fun situation. Shen and the Emissary push Izamu up with Fast. When they Lure him he may take 1-2 points of hazardous damage and get a couple free attacks on him doing 2-4 damage total after armor. Then they have a 4AP Izamu in their face with RT, who can also heal himself, and smash face. Not even including the free attack given from the Knight, nor the free attack he gets if he dies later. Sounds fine to me.

1 point of terrain damage means he has 8 wounds left. def 4 vs ml6 on + flip means all 6 attacks go through. They get +-flip from trigger on 2 attacks, which puts them on neutral flip to cheat. Let's ignore that for a bit and say they just do min damage on all flips. That's 6 damage taken, Izamu only has 2 wounds left.

Izamu activates and goes to town on them.

Tooth has 7 wounds armor +1 and hard to wound def5 vs ml6.You will not be able to cheat damage unless you focus. Killing her will take at least 2 AP if you don't focus and get good flips (possible thanks to RT).

Rougarou has 9 wounds and hard to kill. Killing him will require at least 3 AP of your Izamu.

You can only kill 1 of them and that one comes back via the sacrifice of a Gorar.

You can do your healing flip and heal up 2 wounds (3 if lucky) and get back on 4 wounds from death.

The enemy can then activate either Rougarou or their Emissary and finish the job.

Your Izamu might be able to live through the turn if you did your activations right, but he will drop the next. You have lost a 12 (due to recalled training) ss model while they have lost a Gorar.

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I'm surprised at how much faith you have in his 6 card hand while your 9 card hand doesn't even get a looking at. Or, conversely, have the Shadow Emissary put up his focus aura, and while the sniper takes shots at either of them guarding the Gorar with a focus blasting his way into the Gorar, a 0 focussed Izamu can deliver that second blow, blasting the Gorar to pieces and then kill one and possibly get the other down a notch.

edit; also, how are these models both in perfect position and luring you in while then also being able to both activate and dedicate all of their attacks on this Izamu that should really just be standing about 9" away when your crew initially outactivates him? Again, 90% of this seems to be in your head.

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9 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

I'm surprised at how much faith you have in his 6 card hand while your 9 card hand doesn't even get a looking at. Or, conversely, have the Shadow Emissary put up his focus aura, and while the sniper takes shots at either of them guarding the Gorar with a focus blasting his way into the Gorar, a 0 focussed Izamu can deliver that second blow, blasting the Gorar to pieces and then kill one and possibly get the other down a notch.

edit; also, how are these models both in perfect position and luring you in while then also being able to both activate and dedicate all of their attacks on this Izamu that should really just be standing about 9" away when your crew initially outactivates him? Again, 90% of this seems to be in your head.

I am starting from a turn 2 perspective.

You have 9 activation thanks to summoning a peasant, he has 8 activations.The opponent stays out of izamu charge range (6" charge +3" attack range). even after 10" push from Shenlong + Emissary. You can dedicate all your pushes to him and get him up 16", which is almost at the center. Can't hide from him then.

 

However, if you push up that far, you will have done 3 activations so far: LRM, Emissary and Shenlong. Those 3 allow your opponent plenty of time to get in position. If your alpha strike gets read (which it most likely will), they can turn it against you quite easily. Titania can give you a condition that forces you to attack her or discard 2 cards to even be able to attack. If she has "The Queen's Champion" on her, you can't even kill her with your 4 AP.and you are 6" into the enemy deployment zone ready to be combo'd to infinity by the combo I described.

 

The 9-card hand is quite a big deal as it will help you survive some more. You might even get lucky and get 4 high cards (11+). Just remember the opponent also has 6 cards in his hand and + flips to all attacks. You WILL need to burn some of those high cards. More high cards in hand = less in deck = you will need to cheat more. At least, that's been the situation for me. I must have really bad luck with the cards then I guess?

 

I'm guessing I've been getting really bad card luck for the past year then?

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Not to sound like a cop out, but maybe it is your play style and local meta? In my community, I can tell you who can beat whom in any event in my community. It is just a matter of how they play and who they play against. Maybe a small break from them with another faction will show you what you were missing with the Thunder. After all, you never notice what you got until it is gone. I am not a competitive player, so I can't help with that. I just love the themes and the fluff of the faction.  

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You can also take a couple of terrifying models so their attacks need to beat your terrifying which potentially wastes a lot of cards. Hounds near Luna won't have much trouble beating the hazardous aura.

When your opponent kills Izamu you get a free attack back. If your emmissary has the focus bubble up you can start placing blasts to get at squishier stuff. You can also block the push lanes usually so that they can't make you come closer (Tooth has a push, right?).

If your model has ht 3 they can't block LoS since theirs are ht2. Coupled with a decent ml range that means they can't block charges or attacks with bases.

If you do the Mccabe saber trick with a ninja you get a :+fate to all your flips since they've lured you out from your buddies. All of a sudden you are potentially hitting tooth with both your attacks ignoring armor. If a sniper softened a couple of their models up they might not feel so confident anymore. The negatives on attacks against thr Tooth can also get you red joker hits eaning you are very likely to choose a good suit and get to cheat damage.

Wastrels with McCabes saber do 3/5/6 (?) ignoring armor with ml 6 and positive flips on attack while letting you drop bad cards to potentially draw better ones. That's a 4ss model, I think that's considered pretty good compared to their 7ss ones. Tooth will not want to lure that guy close and allow two attacks.

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9 minutes ago, whodares said:

...snip...

The game starts at turn 1. Why start at a turn 2 perspective? Have you tried letting the final pushes to position Izamu be the last thing you do before activating him, making it your 8th activation and forcing your opponent to commit and put himself out there if he even wants to touch Izamu before you signal where Izamu is gonna go? Rather than making sure the first thing you do is delivering 'Zamu on a silver platter while not even thinking of reacting to how your opponent plays and positions.

And I'm definitely guessing this is to do with you, though at this point I wouldn't argue it's your luck that's at fault. Plenty of people here do well. I've personally never lost a game against Neverborn. Maybe I'm just very very lucky, maybe I'm not playing against your nigh impossible absolute worst case on paper scenario. Somehow other people are winning against Neverborn, and it's not because they've never encountered this sure-fire TT-killer list.

With a Shenlong crew you should be able to position everything in a five mile radius to a T. If you then also out activate your opponent there should be just about nothing they can do to react to that other than hide, scatter or prop up a model for slaughter. Add to that a Sniper that should severely limit their positioning options, some capable beatsticks or an angry Emissary lying in wait to strike if they overextend, and a penchant for movement tricks should leave you in full control of the center turn 1. If his Emissary has his marker lying at the worst possible place, you can fan out a bit and make sure Izamu is dedicating his t1 charge to the Emissary who will at that point be close enough while turn 2 Izamu can start his activation to finish the job.  Maybe a Sniper has been chipping away at the Emissary, making it very possible to kill him t1 and Izamu can pop his RT t2 and charge something else. Or if you suddenly stopped caring about the Emissary, do the Rougarou or whatever. You can look at the board and see where your opponent is weakest or lacking. Use that.

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6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

...

Good points and I agree with you. However our faction doesn't have that many terrifying models. I know of Huggy and Illuminated. Are there others?

I don't know McCabe as I've never even seen him in my local meta, so I will take your word as a veteran McCabe player. I'd argue against putting saber on something as squishy as a wastrel though as the Tooth lure runs automatically into a Rougarou as well. That's 2 ml6 +flip attacks against a def 4 wd 5 Wastrel. But you can always throw the saber on something a bit more durable and it will have great succes indeed.

9 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

....

If you save Izamu as your last activation, you will still have done all your pushes before my last activation. if I saved up Titania, I will do a place on you that forces you to target me.

I feel like almost nobody here is taking terrain into account and just playing on a blank map. Sniper will have difficulty hitting due to cover. His focus gets around that, but def 6 is really bad news for the sh6 sniper.

In my game I killed their Emissary on T2. My emissary got pulled into his, but managed to land the final blow thanks to blasts. then my emissary died. I got shenlong into range and started havoc, but Teddy came around and murdered half my crew with his ml7 and thus managing to constantly move the Extraction marker. At the end of turn 4 I only had 1 peasant, 1 Sniper and Yu. The rest had died to the terrain, Teddy or Tooth + Rougarou. Props to Titania for doing an 8" place on my brother and getting him eaten by teddy.. I managed to cross the centerline with 3 models who died while trying to give me Extraction points.

My high cards were either used on winning duels to keep a model alive for an AP longer, not taking damage from terrain or getting unlucky 13 flips on terrain damage (happened 2 times ...).

Neverborn Emissary with the standard conflux should almost always have priority in killing as he's a force multiplier on the level of SHenlong and Yu combined with the +-flips in a faction that thrives on their minions. At least that's how I see it.

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Why do we have to look out for all this terrain that doesn't seem to hinder your opponent's perfect positioning one bit? Clearly they have plenty of space to manoeuvre without a hitch but somehow we are stopped dead in our tracks when we want to push or shoot or charge or do anything. Ultimately only you know your terrain and how to play around it, but those are decisions you will have to make playing the game. Just as your advances can be thwarted by terrain, so can theirs. Your crew is much more mobile so you should be able to get into a much stronger position quickly. If you find them being able to set everything up perfectly while you can only watch in horror as their insidious trap opens its maws before you, you might want to have a look at the board setup. 

In your game, your list was too weak. If the Emissary is your only big gun you know you've messed up crew assembling. Well surprise, your opponent can now tear its way through your crew without fear of retribution. Shenlong is indeed a force multiplier. If your crew consists of an Emissary and a sniper for offense, there is fuckall to multiply. It was neither sturdy nor scary enough, and it sounds like you've encountered similar set-ups before so you knew what you could expect.

In your mind, everything your opponent does will work 100% and everything you do will fail. This will make you see any action you take as an autoloss, make you afraid to take actions, and as a result you'll get whittled away as your opponent carries out as he pleases. I could counter everything you've described with my pitch involving absolute perfect board position, a godly hand, plus flips out of the ass and the stars and planets aligning, but that's not what's going to happen. 

 

Ultimately if you really feel TT isn't for you, by all means switch, but it isn't suddenly going to solve the problems you have. Those you can only solve through listening to advice and moreso trying to envision how that advice would work. People aren't suggesting you random stuff, they suggest it for a reason. Try seeing how it could work, rather than trying to see how it would fail. Because as it is now it feels you're trying to find vindication of your sense of helplessness, rather than genuinely look for advice.

 

My apologies if this comes across as harsh, but I've been dealing with players in similar positions and the core what it boils down to is that they will not listen. They'll gladly complain and sulk and call it unfair, but any notion of advice people give get brushed aside with an It's no use and It's just these models. It's become this insurmountable wall for them and they can't see past how it snagged them the previous times. 

Next time, try asking your opponent why he felt it was so easy. Ask him what things he felt were lacking from your side of the table and what allowed him to carry on so uninterrupted. Listen to people, and don't be afraid to actually try new things.

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Why is your Sh6 sniper with a double positive to hit and single positive to damage having trouble hitting a Df6 model? Queen's Champion does nothing while on Titania. TT has plenty of ways to hand out focus and positives mean your opponent having positives isn't an issue and you can very easily get rid of the hazardous terrain markers. Also you seem to be ignoring terrain as well if that single 8" push is able to get your models in for killing.

And are you forgetting that Izamu has armor? He shouldn't be down 6 wounds from just Tooth's activation, especially when he can heal himself. We also have the best way to mess with Titania's scheme markers, because she's dropping them all near models, just use Mighty Gust on a model and move 3 of the scheme markers up to 8" back. A condition to only be able to attack Titania isn't an issue when you have 3 models with condition removal.

Also you're talking about anything with Ml/Sh5 is apparently useless(they aren'tt), but the majority of your opponent's crew is Df 5. The only model with higher than Df5 is the Emissary and the Gorar. So for the most part you'll be having a stat advantage while attacking. And if you're really worried about putting a model into her crew, grab Shenlong with LRS, Equality and Misdirection. He can literally just hang out in your opponents crew the rest of the game forcing your opponent to attack his own models.

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