Dead Rider... in need of a fix?

[Da Git]

So, I still remember the good old days (or through rose tinted glasses!) back in M1E when the Dead Rider was a beast!  Now, however, he seems to be lacking a lot of that shine.  I hardly see any discussion about him on the forums and it seems Izamu is all the rage for a front-line beater model. 

So what I'd like to ask you is thus:

1. Does the Dead Rider need fixing?
2. If so, what?  Would a 0ss upgrade do the trick, or is an errata in order?

For me his biggest problem is that he really only has one thing going for him, his attack... and really it ain't all that great.  On the pure offensive side: Hank has a better damage track as well as Nimble & Flurry, Yasunori with triggers can do insane amounts of damage (if the stars truly align, he could potentially get 3 charges with Fast & Asami for 8 Attacks, plus (0).  He also has 12wds & Armour 1 from the start.  As for the other Riders, Hooded has the same damage track turn 2onwards without extra Masks, he also has mobility tricks and his scrap & Corpse removal can be amazing against certain crews + there's also Ret's Eye.  Mech has summoning, nuff said there.  The Pale Rider can also pump out great damage as well and has a Push & Scheme, which could help Guild pre-Nellie. 

As for his Push Trigger, well, we have Belles for that and unless you're flipping/cheating Crows, which complete with most of our stuff, it's 2" per attack turn 2, 4" turn 3 and 6" turn 4+.

So on to fixing him, I had a couple of thoughts, first buff what he does already, + to attack, +1 melee, + to the Scythe, make the Scythe ignore stuff (my preferred one here is HtK as as a faction, ressers lack ways to deal with it (other than copious amounts of poison!)) etc.

The other one that could deffo be improved is Revel in Pain, this is by far the weakest of the Riders' (0) actions.  All the others' just happen, Dead needs to flip a 6 (+turn 2), then he needs to be within 3" of an enemy (all the other Riders (0) don't interact with the enemy), then he actually needs to hit, which is nowhere near guaranteed. 

It wouldn't be as horrible if the Scythe were upped as per above, but I actually think it might just need changing to give him some for of flexibility...

Other things that could be done from his fluff could be a heal, as he patches himself up with the bodies of those he kills, either as a straight Regen or a new (0).  Or something to do with all the Soulstones he supposedly steals. 

So having said all that, here is my errata:

Scythe receives + & maybe ignores HtK

Revel in Pain is changed from make an attack to this model heals two damage for each enemy model it kills this Turn.

Your thoughts?  If you think He's fine, great!  Maybe post your tactics to help the rest of us improve!

[Ludvig]

The scythe isn't the problem, it actually compares really well to the pale rider's attack and does the same damage if you connect twice on any turn later than 2 and more damage than the pale on turns one and two. The push trigger is meant to be used as a control tool to keep stuff engaged but unable to hit you so basically pseudo-slow. It can't be compared to belles or doxies if you ask me.

Just because it isn't being discussed it doesn't mean it's broken either. I never see the pale or hooded rider suggested either, they're not new and shiny anymore.

The idea was for the riders to have the same baseline and the some cool triggers and stuff on the side. I think the mech rider is the problem, a summoning ability is just so much stronger than some damage, a marker or some duel.

I agree that the (0)s on dead are uninspiring so those are what I would have a look at. Your suggestion to revel in pain would feel very resser but I'm not sure if they would make the rider feel more exciting. It would make it really good for denying a quick murder and scoring bodyguard but wouldn't make you want to take it all that often in another pool.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The summoning isn't more powerful then attacks, it's how she Summons that's the issue, if she was limited to multiple resource drains the way other summoners are she would be fine. 

[trikk]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The scythe isn't the problem, it actually compares really well to the pale rider's attack and does the same damage if you connect twice on any turn later than 2 and more damage than the pale on turns one and two. The push trigger is meant to be used as a control tool to keep stuff engaged but unable to hit you so basically pseudo-slow. It can't be compared to belles or doxies if you ask me.

Just because it isn't being discussed it doesn't mean it's broken either. I never see the pale or hooded rider suggested either, they're not new and shiny anymore.

The idea was for the riders to have the same baseline and the some cool triggers and stuff on the side. I think the mech rider is the problem, a summoning ability is just so much stronger than some damage, a marker or some duel.

I agree that the (0)s on dead are uninspiring so those are what I would have a look at. Your suggestion to revel in pain would feel very resser but I'm not sure if they would make the rider feel more exciting. It would make it really good for denying a quick murder and scoring bodyguard but wouldn't make you want to take it all that often in another pool.

I don`t think I`d ever take Pale Rider outside of McCabe. Its 12 SS of pretty mediocre ranged damage unless you have the Sabre.

[Da Git]

So is it that they're all just mostly over-costed then?  Would 10-11ss solve most of the problems (Mech excepted?)  The other thing I think that would actually go a long way to fixing all the Riders is if they didn't deduct one when determining how many suits they get ie. they would get one special suit turn 1, 2 on turn 2, etc...

@Ludvig or @Fetid Strumpet have you used the Dead Rider or seen it used to good effect?

Also @Ludvig. Could you please explain how the push trigger makes them unable to hit you or a pseudo Slow? It pushes the target into base contact with the Rider so what is stopping him/her wracking it? 

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, Da Git said:

So is it that they're all just mostly over-costed then?  Would 10-11ss solve most of the problems (Mech excepted?)  The other thing I think that would actually go a long way to fixing all the Riders is if they didn't deduct one when determining how many suits they get ie. they would get one special suit turn 1, 2 on turn 2, etc...

@Ludvig or @Fetid Strumpet have you used the Dead Rider or seen it used to good effect?

Also @Ludvig. Could you please explain how the push trigger makes them unable to hit you or a pseudo Slow? It pushes the target into base contact with the Rider so what is stopping him/her wracking it? 

Commented without reading the card again. I had completely forgotten about the push into base contact after the initial push.

I've never used any of the riders since I am reluctant to spend that amount of money on a single model but I have seen the dead one used to great effect. They are all at their most useful when you want to deny killing the most expensive model so they depend on the right scheme pool. The mech one is far too strong with it's summoning, the others are maybe on the weak-ish side for their cost.

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The summoning isn't more powerful then attacks, it's how she Summons that's the issue, if she was limited to multiple resource drains the way other summoners are she would be fine. 

There are more and more summoners around who don't depend on any resource. A comparable model is Toshiro who can use either a corpse or scrap and in aTT crew no one is competing for those markers so he is very likely to have them around. Most summoners do need a suit at least.

[Saduhem]

On 4/22/2017 at 10:54 AM, Ludvig said:

There are more and more summoners around who don't depend on any resource. A comparable model is Toshiro who can use either a corpse or scrap and in aTT crew no one is competing for those markers so he is very likely to have them around. Most summoners do need a suit at least.

Don't have the card in front of me bu pretty sure he needs the suit, the marker, and a decent card. Suit becomes a non issue with riders and no marker is needed for the Mech.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I haven't really had a lot of good effect for the Dead Rider. I think he'd be pretty decent with Nicodem, but that's the only resser master I'd really even consider bringing him in.

[Ludvig]

23 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Don't have the card in front of me bu pretty sure he needs the suit, the marker, and a decent card. Suit becomes a non issue with riders and no marker is needed for the Mech.

Yeah, there is quite the difference, not sure why I was trying to defend it. I would be very happy if the mech rider had its summon removed entirely and given something else. 

 

As for all the riders really you need to remember that they were written when bodyguard was in almost half the pools so their survivability in conjunction with their high cost was basically the reason to hire them, the cost was almost a bonus because it meant you knew who the opponent needed to kill.

You need to gauge any rider's effectiveness in the book scheme pool or at least a pool where a scheme of that kind is present. If every model that interacts differently with a new gg gets errata it will be a chore to keep up.

If we keep beating the dead horseman it should be in that constructive manner. Compare it to the hooded and pale rider and assume a favourable scheme pool.

[Ryin]

Took him in one of my Adepticon matches with Reva. Held one point for the scheme where you need models on each side of the table at the centerline (the name escapes me) Hung out there for two turns and then rode off to kill things. 

Seemed fine with me. I certainly wouldn't be getting the mobility out of an Izamu, that's for sure and a RN isn't as survivable. 

For ressers, the mobility is what makes them good. If you ONLY need schemes ran, there's better options, but if you need something mobile that can survive AND kick some ass, they do a little bit of everything. Which, in a game where, increasingly, specialization is king, they tend to get overlooked. 

All the riders do, kinda. Cept ol gear hips.

[Daysleeper]

My biggest problem with him is the cost. For 10SS i would take him with Nico (scheme dependant). For 12SS ... no way

 

[Da Git]

On 24/04/2017 at 5:09 AM, Ludvig said:

Yeah, there is quite the difference, not sure why I was trying to defend it. I would be very happy if the mech rider had its summon removed entirely and given something else. 

 

As for all the riders really you need to remember that they were written when bodyguard was in almost half the pools so their survivability in conjunction with their high cost was basically the reason to hire them, the cost was almost a bonus because it meant you knew who the opponent needed to kill.

You need to gauge any rider's effectiveness in the book scheme pool or at least a pool where a scheme of that kind is present. If every model that interacts differently with a new gg gets errata it will be a chore to keep up.

If we keep beating the dead horseman it should be in that constructive manner. Compare it to the hooded and pale rider and assume a favourable scheme pool.

I've had the Pale Rider used against me, and to be honest, I would probably have been more scared of a Peacekeeper. Hits harder and is tankier. 

I actually like the Hooded Rider, use him against ressers, as he can get high damage to get around HtW and Incorporeal and can remove corpse markers which can be critical against Nico and Reva. I've mostly played him with Titania to get Queen's Champion with Ret Eye. 

He also makes a great taxi for something like Johan. 

Comparatively, I just find the Dead Rider boring. 

Are there any upgrades you'd consider? 

I'm thinking about using him in a Reva crew with My Little Helper. Pop MLH on turn 2 the extra card and defence, then send him in as hopefully he can't be targeted... 

Thoughts? 

[hydranixx]

My Little Helper is essential on this guy as it helps shore up his early game weakness, as well as giving his (0) two chances to connect. It's optimal on turn 3 since your (0) will automatically have the two s required to at least have a chance at hitting twice, but using it on turn 2 is also tempting because that way he can get stuck in earlier and attempt to make his colossal 13ss cost worth it.. But that's the biggest problem. 13ss buys Ressers so many more useful things than this guy. I think everyone here is on the same page he just doesn't do enough to be worth 12ss or 13ss.