Gremraida and the problem of too much support

[Math Mathonwy]

I like Zoraida a lot. She gives me this feeling of LIMITLESS POSSIBILITIES in that usually, no matter what needs doing, she can do it by Obeying friendlies and enemies and utilizing her other abilities. Her toolbox is deep and she is a force multiplier. Also, Voodoo Doll is fantastic - especially with FFM being so common, I feel that the Doll alone brings something very different to the usual Gremlin toolbox. And then there's of course Nurse who also brings something new to the table (an aspect of the Brewmaster, sort of) and Waldgeists (super durable Minions aren't something that Gremlins have in abundance normally).

Wisps also made her a whole lot better. 3SS for a Minion that can sortakinda give your Master 2AP per turn? Um... wow!

But now we come to the problem.

Ever since the Wisps I've felt obligated to take a Wisp. And since you need the 2SS Upgrade for Wisps on the Gremlin side, and since they are pretty squishy, maybe I should take two? And if I take two, howabout a Spawn Mother as she got so much better with Wisps? And since I'm using a Wisp for Voodoo Doll summon, I'd better have Sammy or a Nurse as well to make the Doll better. And a Crystal Ball is cool as well.

...and suddenly I have a Support Master with 25SS spent on extra support. So I'll have enough for about three workhorse models (Francois, Gracie, Roosters, Burt, whatever) and Upgrades and Pool and whatnot.

And then the enemy kills the workhorse models and my LIMITLESS POSSIBILITIES turn into very limited possibilities since Obeying a Wisp around is thoroughly unsatisfactory.

Oh, and even worse, workhorse models might include Fingers or First Mate and what the devil do I do then?

Please help!

[EpicWaffle]

Well o start off, I wouldn't bring both Sammy and a nurse! That's waaay to much resources for 1 thing. The two wisp seems fine to me, and about the spawn mother, I don't know. I love the model, the idea, and I wish you could use her with gremlins without using Zoraida, but is she worth? Aside spawning gupps, she does almost nothing, or at least so seem to me. Than again, I tired once Gremraida, failed miserably and went back to Boomsticks and pirates  

[DanteJH]

I'll back waffle in that you shouldn't bring sammy and the nurse and would go even further to say don't bring either. I've played gremraida for about 8 months now and I find that zoraida with hex bag can do enough to make it a problem for the opposition. I'm also a big fan of not using the doll for raw damage but rather I use him as a tool to really mess with enemy positioning. The idea is that you summon it right in their face, hem it to something they like and then make it stab or walk it around to get in the way of the enemy. Just engaging them with it makes life a lot harder for them, they can't drop markers, it can stop movement and if they hit it they hit their mate. It saves a lot of stones and keeping him around saves AP and gives you another activation.

I really don't want to make this a lecture because I'm worried about making a reputation for myself with the whiskey golem stuff but I'd also drop crystal ball in favour of beast shape. The 15 inch place gets you set you in position turn 1 which I really like (especially if you can get somewhere hard to reach) and if you take it for the card draw, bewitch is a fantastic action, drop it on something with nimble, melee expert, ect and you can draw a whole new hand! 

In terms of crew selection make sure to take your bayou boyz! It might just be me but I always take 2-4 bayou gremlins with any master, it's a small amount of stones that can cause a lot of small issues that eventually add up, they're good objective runners and boy are they cute! Also, don't take the big models unless they fit for the schemes, strat or your own tactics with two exceptions, I find that Gracie, Lenny and the golem can all make very good use of the obeys. I like to have burt, frank, Lenny and Raphael as my workmen and a slop hauler to back them up. The idea is that zoraida provides extra AP if they need it, better cards to get the job done and a roadblock that so much fun in the form of the doll, just make sure you aren't putting to much into it!

Best of luck! I'd love to hear a battle report of your Gremraida and I hope this helps!

[Dogmantra]

55 minutes ago, DanteJH said:

I'll back waffle in that you shouldn't bring sammy and the nurse and would go even further to say don't bring either.

:OOOO

I tend to play with the doll similar to you, but I just can't justify not having a nurse to also paralyse the hem target basically every turn for one card, then also being able to buff up your other stuff and in an emergency full heal a model. Sammy is more situational, but generally I'm bringing her for Animal Shape to do Undercover Entourage instead.

[DanteJH]

8 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

:OOOO

I tend to play with the doll similar to you, but I just can't justify not having a nurse to also paralyse the hem target basically every turn for one card, then also being able to buff up your other stuff and in an emergency full heal a model. Sammy is more situational, but generally I'm bringing her for Animal Shape to do Undercover Entourage instead.

To be perfectly honest I've never tried the nurse because I couldn't bring myself to buy a box that is only use one model of for 1 master. Maybe I'll try and borrow a friends

[Math Mathonwy]

That "or" between "Sammy or Nurse" was meant to an exclusive or, not an inclusive one. I have never taken both (though I admit - I've been tempted!).

As for the Crystal Ball - well, in my last two games I've managed to hit the TN for Obey and Hem four times total when casting them probably thirty times total so I kinda feel like I need all the card draw I can get! Also, I've never had problem positioning Zoraida as her ranges are long and she doesn't care about cover.

As for the Bayou Gremlins - yeah, they aren't bad but Spawn Mother Summoning Gupps was kinda subbing for them.

Finally, the suggested list of Frank, Lenny, Raphael, Burt, Slop Hauler and 2 Bayou Gremlins is 41SS without Upgrades so it's basically a whole list and no room for Wisps or Nurses or anything. I suppose you can get away with Zoraida using less cards since her AP goes into flying around and summoning the doll.

Edit: reading that, I suppose it sounds dismissive of the advice I got - didn't mean it that way. Zoraida is the Gremlin Master I've played the most and I've used all sorts of crews with her including something very, very close to the suggested crew (several times in various iterations) but I'm not all that enthused about going back to Wispless life of yore so it doesn't really address my concerns all that well, I don't think.

[PositronMike]

I found in the few games I have had with Zoraida that her crew composition can be so varied it depends on the players style more than most other masters.

That said I found that the emissary is really good with her as it can act as a support and hitting model at the same time. Before wisps came out I would often summon the doll and then obey the emissary to paralyse. With wisps this could be even more powerful. The emissary can also swap to a damage dealing model later in the game which helps with the crew balance.

Never played with the spawn mother so not really sure on how she helps the crew apart from Gupps summons. Can she take her upgrade in Gremlins to give her crit strike or is it neverborn only?

[Izzinatah]

15 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

Never played with the spawn mother so not really sure on how she helps the crew apart from Gupps summons. Can she take her upgrade in Gremlins to give her crit strike or is it neverborn only?

It's Neverborn only. It's pretty much just the Gupp summons (besides her being a decent beater) - but you get a *lot* of Gupps very easily, and they make excellent schemers - especially in the late game. This is really useful when you have Wisps and so on that aren't great at getting Scheme Markers down (where you want them, at least).

As for too much support - I'm not a huge fan of going all-in on the Doll. It's great, but so is Obey, and the Wisps let you pull off some Doll shenanigans while doing everything else. However, 25ss on Sammy/Nurse, Wisps & Spawn Mother isn't that bad - they don't just offer doll-support and scheming abilities, you get a beater in the Spawn Mother, movement denial tricks with the Wisps (Raven Form is fun with them, too) and summoning/scheme denial with Sammy.

[feagaur]

I love Zoraida and run her both in Neverborn (mostly) and Gremlins. If I'm running her  with a swampfiend crew I tend to take Zoraida with Tarot reaading and Animal shape, McTavish with cute critters, Spawn mother, two wisps a nurse and then fill with other things I need based on schemes and strat etc. Though its usually Wild Boars, Gupps, Silurids, Waldergeists or occasionally Rooster Riders. 

I've found the spawn mother to be great. Creating a gupp a turn makes your opponent want to kill her, so then your gupps run off and do the schemes. If you're opponent decides to go for wisps to shut it down then you keep them within 6" of the spawn mother and get a free charge if/when they kill the wisp. Just remember that the wisps copying of a (2) ap is for Neverborn models only.

[DanteJH]

On 12 April 2017 at 3:56 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

That "or" between "Sammy or Nurse" was meant to an exclusive or, not an inclusive one. I have never taken both (though I admit - I've been tempted!).

As for the Crystal Ball - well, in my last two games I've managed to hit the TN for Obey and Hem four times total when casting them probably thirty times total so I kinda feel like I need all the card draw I can get! Also, I've never had problem positioning Zoraida as her ranges are long and she doesn't care about cover.

As for the Bayou Gremlins - yeah, they aren't bad but Spawn Mother Summoning Gupps was kinda subbing for them.

Finally, the suggested list of Frank, Lenny, Raphael, Burt, Slop Hauler and 2 Bayou Gremlins is 41SS without Upgrades so it's basically a whole list and no room for Wisps or Nurses or anything. I suppose you can get away with Zoraida using less cards since her AP goes into flying around and summoning the doll.

Edit: reading that, I suppose it sounds dismissive of the advice I got - didn't mean it that way. Zoraida is the Gremlin Master I've played the most and I've used all sorts of crews with her including something very, very close to the suggested crew (several times in various iterations) but I'm not all that enthused about going back to Wispless life of yore so it doesn't really address my concerns all that well, I don't think.

If you're really into the swamp fiend side of things then why are you playing the gremlin side? I suggest having a think about why you are and try to capitalise as possible on whatever you come up with. I'm not sure what exactly you're wanting help with but only taking one wisp and less voodoo doll support is my advice. Try giving yourself a ss 'budget' on different aspect of the crew like 5ss for upgrades, 20ss for beaters ect and make sure you keep your voodoo support small and stick to it 

[Vorschlag]

Take 2 war pigs a hog whisperer, 2 waldgiest,  1 wisps and you still have 10 stones for doll abuse models and you already have 7 models including your master 8 when the doll is summoned.

Two warpigs with potential reactivate will ruin most people's day.

The waldgiest provide cover and can engage models at long range to choke up the field.

Of course you could sub out a pig and whisperer for roosters, when I rotate back to gremlins I might pick them up.

[green-n-dumb]

What neverborn models Zoraida needs in Gremlins?
Wisps, waldgeists, nurse?
How she feels in Gremlins? Not too weak compairing to Neverborns?
 

PS: She is only gremlin master i dont have and her realy ugly look and too much neverbornish stops me from immmidiately buying her.
But voodoo doll is so cute and lots of interesting mechanics looking sweet.

[Lokibri]

Well, a friend of mine and me are trying to use her a lot, but it is not THAT easy with gremlins.

Willowisp is an auto include!

Here are some nice combinations i used with her:

- Sammy LaCroix getting every condition you want on the doll and her linked victim, denying walks\charges or forcing horror duels or both at the same time, which looks the model in place and forces duels! Also, drawing cards with her and crystal ball is nice and she can carry an upgrade for zoraida

-McTavish: very good dmg, good obey target, nice synergies with swampfiends. Love him with her and he can provide cover for her.

Those are my main thoughts and models i use.

 

[Rathnard]

9 minutes ago, Lokibri said:

- Merris LaCroix: She is not as useful as iggy with her attack, but getting 6-9 burning on the doll and her victim pretty much kills every model going around.

IIRC Merris can only target enemy models with her Burning attack. Which is a real pity when it comes to the Voodoo Doll.

I've got nothing else to add at the moment (apart from the fact that Zoraida was my first love in Malifaux ). But I'm hoping to pull out Gremlin-Zoraida again some time soon so I'm following this thread with interest.

[Lokibri]

17 minutes ago, Rathnard said:

IIRC Merris can only target enemy models with her Burning attack. Which is a real pity when it comes to the Voodoo Doll.

I've got nothing else to add at the moment (apart from the fact that Zoraida was my first love in Malifaux ). But I'm hoping to pull out Gremlin-Zoraida again some time soon so I'm following this thread with interest.

My bad...i always fall for that one. Sry

[Clement]

A slightly simpler trick that's worth a giggle is the Emissary.  Dead in their tracks is normally kind of an iffy ability (paralyze a model with slow) but it synergizes beautifully with the voodoo doll.  Further, Conflux of Fate gives it a really great 0 action for deck sculpting.  The emissary also hits pretty darn hard (Ml 6, 3 inch reach, min damage 3) so I'd hesitate to call it purely a support piece.

[PositronMike]

22 minutes ago, Clement said:

A slightly simpler trick that's worth a giggle is the Emissary.  Dead in their tracks is normally kind of an iffy ability (paralyze a model with slow) but it synergizes beautifully with the voodoo doll.  Further, Conflux of Fate gives it a really great 0 action for deck sculpting.  The emissary also hits pretty darn hard (Ml 6, 3 inch reach, min damage 3) so I'd hesitate to call it purely a support piece.

The Emissary is amazing with Zoraida especially as with the right set up you can paralyze 2 models a turn with it. If you are taking the Emissary I would also suggest taking Mancha as he can then very nicely auto kill the paralyzed model.

[daniello_s]

Zoraida needs Will O Wisp or two. Rest is depending on your taste. I like Waldgeists as they bring bit durability in Gremlins crew.

Apart of that i base her crew mostly on Gremlin stuff like Emissary (the only master with whom i bring emissary to be honest), Roosters, Swine Cursed, Burt and others depending what i want to achieve.

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, green-n-dumb said:

her realy ugly look and too much neverbornish stops me from immmidiately buying her.

But you know that a lot of players have the same problem as you? I honestly don't understand.. is an old woman with rag dolls! She was my first master! I find her one of more charismatic master in game, with also one of more funniest game mechanics! Apart your speech about number of nb models that she needs, yes, she is ugly.. such as be ugly every old woman.. i'm sorry i don't understand this fear of old-age..😛

i find her a fascinating image.. maybe because where i live, we have a tradition that every morning  of 6th January there is a legend that an old ugly woman, dressed in rags, flying on her broomstick and bring sweets in one sock to kids.

But there are also, many legendary figure from other country's legends, see:

Baba Yaga

Moirai or Fates from Greek Mythology and many others..

I suggest you to watch "the witch" (2015 movie) and if you have the means, to play "the witcher 3" (videogame fantasy) in chapter "ladies of the wood"😎

[end of off-topic]

I think that, currently she is better in her Nb side.. for use nb models in grem, you have to spend 2 ss only for tarot reading, and will o' wisp are really an auto include.. if you want to use iggy, for spread out burning, you have to pay 6 ss! if you want to cheat fate (skill that i find fundamental in gremlins) are other 8 ss for trixie..with an hypotetical lucky emissary are other 10 ss.. not to mention about tavish/nurse nerf...much too, to be competitive!

Edit. This is just my 2 cents, try to prox zoraida first, in every case she is very fun to play!😛

 

 

[green-n-dumb]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

yes, she is ugly.. such as be ugly every old woman.. i'm sorry i don't understand this fear of old-age..😛

i dont like the model at all.
she is not gremlin and she is uglier that half of resser rotten girls.
if i will buy her i will change head and give her to painter to make conversions of her for young lady looking.
her avatar is amazing buy it costs like a half of neverborn fraction+cant be played as master.
avatar is nice.
ijust dont want to play model that i dont like visualy. its like i was looking to ressers and they all are gore and rotten and its pretty disgusting to me.

[TeddyBear]

10 minutes ago, green-n-dumb said:

i dont like the model at all.
she is not gremlin and she is uglier that half of resser rotten girls.
if i will buy her i will change head and give her to painter to make conversions of her for young lady looking.
her avatar is amazing buy it costs like a half of neverborn fraction+cant be played as master.
avatar is nice.
ijust dont want to play model that i dont like visualy. its like i was looking to ressers and they all are gore and rotten and its pretty disgusting to me.

to each is own 😛 i've tried 😛

[le_sphinx]

17 hours ago, green-n-dumb said:

i dont like the model at all.
she is not gremlin and she is uglier that half of resser rotten girls.
if i will buy her i will change head and give her to painter to make conversions of her for young lady looking.
her avatar is amazing buy it costs like a half of neverborn fraction+cant be played as master.
avatar is nice.
ijust dont want to play model that i dont like visualy. its like i was looking to ressers and they all are gore and rotten and its pretty disgusting to me.

Yeah mate. I totally agree with you. I don’t like her plastic model at all either, but I was so tempting to her game mechanics.

That’s why I got her metal alternative model. It costed me some money and time of course, but I am quite happy with it. In my taste she is much better than plastic model from box.