Rate our Masters

[lille354]

2 hours ago, Lord Malkom said:

That makes a game work well? when people argue how good or bad a character is? really?

I meant that opinions vary - if everyone agrees a character is useless, then they probably are?

[Lord Malkom]

Ah ok.

Yes if everyone agrees there will be buffs like for montresor. And if they are about to buff som masters for some reasons (Zoraida and Lucius for example) that is good and brings more diversity to the table. Sure it is argueable if Seams needs a buff. Not as bad as the other two for sure.

But I think he should becom a bit better at what he should be best at.  But maybe my opinion is influenced because I like Seamus the most and so I wish he would be the most badass, just like in his story.

[hydranixx]

I agree with you there @Lord Malkom. It would be nice if in-game Seamus exemplified the themes that his fluff explores rather than sort of dipping a toe into them. As far as story Seamus goes, both limited upgrades are essential to him - he is an extremely feared serial killer who carries a bag full of questionable objects, so why does he have to choose between being feared OR carrying his stash of filth in an actual game?

If changes were to be made with Seamus, I'd like the -2 WP from Sinister Reputation to be incorporated into Feast of Fear ability on the front of his card. His unique upgrades need to give the player more compelling choices rather than encouraging the extremely linear playstyle that he's currently known for.

Distraction would be re-written as an ability on Red Chapel Killer rather than a (0) : At the start of Seamus' Activation, he may discard a friendly Scheme Marker or Corpse Marker within 3" . If he does, he may choose to count as being out of LoS to enemy models for any actions he takes for the rest of this Activation.

I'd experiment with changing Back Alley thusly: 

(1) Back Alley (Ca 7 / TN 14 / Rg: -) Place Seamus anywhere within 8" that is also within 1" of any blocking terrain. If no enemy model can draw LoS to Seamus, place Seamus anywhere within 16" that is also within 1" of any blocking terrain instead. Seamus may not take Interact Actions for the remainder of this activation.

 Hat-trick: After succeeding, this model gains the Focus +1 Condition.

---------------------

I think that Ressurectionist masters are mostly specialists. It's hard to rate them in order of effectiveness compared with each other since they seem to excel at very, very different things.

That said, I believe the psychological edges that come with Ikiryo is enough to put Kirai head and shoulders above other masters as far as the opponent is concerned. It's overtly powerful, in your face, multiple times, and seemingly for free.

A lot of the power in our other masters is expressed covertly; Molly's The One's Left Behind and Black Blood damage might even do more "incidental" damage to your opponent in an average game than Ikiryo does. However, her damage isn't manifested as a giant spirit monster sitting on the board, so it's easier to look past it.

Coupling Ikiryo, her regular summoning, the "of pity and wind" shield, and the positioning tricks that Swirling Spirits and Into the Spirit World offer... I agree with many others that she's our best master when she's in experienced hands.

[MeatAndFauxtatoes]

34 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

If changes were to be made with Seamus, I'd like the -2 WP from Sinister Reputation to be incorporated into Feast of Fear ability on the front of his card. His unique upgrades need to give the player more compelling choices rather than encouraging the extremely linear playstyle that he's currently known for.

Distraction would be re-written as an ability on Red Chapel Killer rather than a (0) : At the start of Seamus' Activation, he may discard a friendly Scheme Marker or Corpse Marker within 3" . If he does, he may choose to count as being out of LoS to enemy models for any actions he takes for the rest of this Activation.

I'd experiment with changing Back Alley thusly: 

(1) Back Alley (Ca 7 / TN 14 / Rg: -) Place Seamus anywhere within 8" that is also within 1" of any blocking terrain. If no enemy model can draw LoS to Seamus, place Seamus anywhere within 16" that is also within 1" of any blocking terrain instead. Seamus may not take Interact Actions for the remainder of this activation.

 Hat-trick: After succeeding, this model gains the Focus +1 Condition.

I really like this idea, it seems so much more streamlined and effective - I've always hated needing an extra suit just to back alley 16". A free focus on the suit would also be great because it would make charging after back alley much more effective.

I would love for Seamus to have a little more variety, focus, back alley then shoot gets boring fast and is super predictable, the other player always saves their best card to negate it which is simply not fun, I can count on 1 hand the number of times Seamus has actually 1 hit something with his flintlock in my 20 or so games with him.

On a side note I would like the flintlock to ignore armour, hard to wound and hard to kill. It's .50 cal! This is wishful thinking though.

[Lord Malkom]

Whenever I read about close combat Seamus I chuckle. His cc attack upgrade is quite useless. The instant death trigger is appropriate (with buying another crow for it) but most of the other stuff is mostly useless. I like his def 4 but if he does not hand out a beating while in combat everyone wants him in close combat.

 

Upgrades in general are sometimes essential to the master at all. Like McMournings resser upgrade. Without it he wouldn't be McMourning in my opinion.

 

The idea that the no eyes on me is not a (0) action is good. I really don't like it and it wouldn't make such a big difference but it would feel better to play with.

but I really don't like your Back Alley change. The fun part in his story is: you don't look at him and then he is suddenly somewhere else. That's why he is so creepy at all. So "teleporting" with LoS would not fit that reputation.

The Hattrick Idea is nice though. More options.

 

 

16 minutes ago, MeatAndFauxtatoes said:

On a side note I would like the flintlock to ignore armour, hard to wound and hard to kill. It's .50 cal! This is wishful thinking though.

totally, yes.

[hydranixx]

7 minutes ago, Lord Malkom said:

Upgrades in general are sometimes essential to the master at all. Like McMournings resser upgrade. Without it he wouldn't be McMourning in my opinion.

I always felt that McMourning's limited upgrades make perfect sense because they were a way to have one master able to explore two very different playstyles, in two completely different factions.

Moonlighting unlocks half of his Resser-ness. He's currently working with his lab creations and assistants so he's liberally stitching up new undead monsters and going mad.

On the Clock unlocks half of his Guild-ness. He's currently working with Guild executives and soldiers so he's deliberately keeping his fingers clean and ordering people about.

Seamus on the other hand... is either a serial killer with a gun or a random human with a bag of random assorted items and gun. I'm unsure why exactly he's only a scary serial killer when he remembers to leave his bag at home.

[Kadeton]

Wow, all this hate for Seamus! People really undervalue the impact of that -2 Wp. I echo the sentiments of those who were advocating for Corpse Bloat on him - I've used that to great effect in many games. And if the opponent moves pieces to engage you, get a Nurse in there to give him his meds, he'll slap everyone around him silly. He's got so much staying power.

My ranking of the Ressers would look more like this:

1. Amelia Bathory (or Nicodem). In my opinion, the strongest Master in the game. Total flexibility, massive card draw, huge AP efficiency. Nobody else comes close.
2. Reva. Incredible damage and solid positioning, but struggles to meaningfully support her crew at times.
3. Dr Dufresne (or McMourning). The most straightforward fun Master, with many playstyle options to suit your mood.
4. Molly. A solid summoner and support, great fun to play, just unable to compete with Nicodem in any sense.
5. Kirai. Much the same as Molly, but flimsier, less flexible and less fun. Her only advantage comes from Ikiryo, who is great, but isn't enough to push her higher on my list.
6. Seamus. Has some very nice interactions that are well worth exploring, but is generally outclassed by Reva in a competitive sense. Good for fun games.
7. Yan Lo. Like Seamus, there's a lot of cool stuff he can do, but others can do similar things more easily and/or more effectively.
8. Tara. She's got some interesting things she can do, but is overall too fiddly and card-dependent compared to the others.

That said, there's not that much in it. All the Ressers are solid, and the perceived power levels are mainly determined by playstyle preference rather than measurable power differentials.

... except for Nicodem (Amelia!), who is legitimately in an S-tier all his (her) own.

[Math Mathonwy]

10 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Wow, all this hate for Seamus! People really undervalue the impact of that -2 Wp. I echo the sentiments of those who were advocating for Corpse Bloat on him - I've used that to great effect in many games. And if the opponent moves pieces to engage you, get a Nurse in there to give him his meds, he'll slap everyone around him silly. He's got so much staying power.

My ranking of the Ressers would look more like this:

1. Amelia Bathory (or Nicodem). In my opinion, the strongest Master in the game. Total flexibility, massive card draw, huge AP efficiency. Nobody else comes close.
2. Reva. Incredible damage and solid positioning, but struggles to meaningfully support her crew at times.
3. Dr Dufresne (or McMourning). The most straightforward fun Master, with many playstyle options to suit your mood.
4. Molly. A solid summoner and support, great fun to play, just unable to compete with Nicodem in any sense.
5. Kirai. Much the same as Molly, but flimsier, less flexible and less fun. Her only advantage comes from Ikiryo, who is great, but isn't enough to push her higher on my list.
6. Seamus. Has some very nice interactions that are well worth exploring, but is generally outclassed by Reva in a competitive sense. Good for fun games.
7. Yan Lo. Like Seamus, there's a lot of cool stuff he can do, but others can do similar things more easily and/or more effectively.
8. Tara. She's got some interesting things she can do, but is overall too fiddly and card-dependent compared to the others.

That said, there's not that much in it. All the Ressers are solid, and the perceived power levels are mainly determined by playstyle preference rather than measurable power differentials.

... except for Nicodem (Amelia!), who is legitimately in an S-tier all his (her) own.

I can sorta see the list (don't really agree with it much but I believe I can see the reasoning behind it) but how is Tara card-dependent compared to the likes of Nico (well, Nico does have good card draw but he uses those cards as well) or Molly or McM or even Seamus?

[Kadeton]

14 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I can sorta see the list (don't really agree with it much but I believe I can see the reasoning behind it) but how is Tara card-dependent compared to the likes of Nico (well, Nico does have good card draw but he uses those cards as well) or Molly or McM or even Seamus?

Her usual stuff needs a lot of specific suits on decent cards - moderate Crows every time you want to use your Obliteration Symbiote, Masks every time you want to avoid getting shot, high Rams if you want Killjoy to do his thing. It tends to focus on maximising a model or two's combat impact, which (since she doesn't bring any buffs beyond Fast) means you're generally relying on your hand to land those hits. Couple that with her natural tendency to reduce her hand size for the sake of Void creatures and Temporal Shifts, and she suffers a huge amount from hand pressure.

Of the others you mentioned, the summoners (Nico, Molly) generally just want a few decent cards for their mid-range summons, and high cards are a nice bonus. They also either have inherent card draw, or synergize well with other models that do (like Philip and the Nanny). The brawlers (McM and Seamus) appreciate a couple of high cards for their big-ticket attacks, but can slog through a turn or two without them just fine, and otherwise don't particularly care about suits very much.

Anyway, that's just been my experience. Your mileage may vary.

[Math Mathonwy]

43 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Her usual stuff needs a lot of specific suits on decent cards - moderate Crows every time you want to use your Obliteration Symbiote, Masks every time you want to avoid getting shot, high Rams if you want Killjoy to do his thing. It tends to focus on maximising a model or two's combat impact, which (since she doesn't bring any buffs beyond Fast) means you're generally relying on your hand to land those hits. Couple that with her natural tendency to reduce her hand size for the sake of Void creatures and Temporal Shifts, and she suffers a huge amount from hand pressure.

Of the others you mentioned, the summoners (Nico, Molly) generally just want a few decent cards for their mid-range summons, and high cards are a nice bonus. They also either have inherent card draw, or synergize well with other models that do (like Philip and the Nanny). The brawlers (McM and Seamus) appreciate a couple of high cards for their big-ticket attacks, but can slog through a turn or two without them just fine, and otherwise don't particularly care about suits very much.

Anyway, that's just been my experience. Your mileage may vary.

It seems that my mileage does indeed vary. IME she rarely gets shot at since it's often such a waste, I extremely rarely dump my hand in order to help the Void critters (though Fast pulse does that for me, I guess), and I usually use Obliteration Symbiote max once per turn and I use mid-sized bombs as opposed to Killjoy or something (I've found Sebastian, Death Marshall, and Carrion Emissary (well, he's big but in a very different way) to suit me better as bombs).

I do admit that my way of playing Tara is probably a bit different from the mainstream wisdom (but then again, mainstream wisdom tends to rank her very low while I do consistently well with her so I dunno). But that's the richness of the game, I suppose!

[Mikey_C]

27 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It seems that my mileage does indeed vary. IME she rarely gets shot at since it's often such a waste, I extremely rarely dump my hand in order to help the Void critters (though Fast pulse does that for me, I guess), and I usually use Obliteration Symbiote max once per turn and I use mid-sized bombs as opposed to Killjoy or something (I've found Sebastian, Death Marshall, and Carrion Emissary (well, he's big but in a very different way) to suit me better as bombs).

I do admit that my way of playing Tara is probably a bit different from the mainstream wisdom (but then again, mainstream wisdom tends to rank her very low while I do consistently well with her so I dunno). But that's the richness of the game, I suppose!

People like to pigeon hole her into being a single trick (beast bomb) master.  I also do pretty well with her and rarely take Obliteration Symbiote. 

[Kadeton]

10 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

People like to pigeon hole her into being a single trick (beast bomb) master.  I also do pretty well with her and rarely take Obliteration Symbiote. 

What do you find her strengths are, outside of the beast bomb? Other than taxiing beaters across the board, I struggle to think of any area where she's not outclassed by the other Masters. I'd be interested to hear about alternate styles for her!

[Justin]

20 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

What do you find her strengths are, outside of the beast bomb? Other than taxiing beaters across the board, I struggle to think of any area where she's not outclassed by the other Masters. I'd be interested to hear about alternate styles for her!

Sit back and enjoy 6 AP per turn? 

 

Ranked purely by my personal preference:

1) Molly

2) Reva

3-7) Those unfortunate masters who are not Molly or Reva. May they have our pity.

[Pyrflamme]

I've been fairly successful with Tara, myself. Two beaters (I play Nothing Beast and Bishop most of the time), taxi one up, and Pulse Fast onto 3-4 models (Void Wretches with Fast are excellent scheme runners). Then beat something to death with Wp-targeting attacks. If you can wrangle it, the target will have -2 WP.

I mean, yeah she's kinda limited and I'd love to see some additional options via upgrades for her in future, but she can have something scary dead turn one with four attacks at +2-4.

The taxi also works in other, interesting corner cases. I had a game with Tail 'Em vs post-errata Lucius in which he ran to the opposite end of the board where he thought he'd be safe from being tailed by a minion, first activation of the turn. Tara activated, used her Reactivate (0), picked up a Punk Zombie nearby, double walked so she wouldn't be in range of anything to engage her. Second activation, she walked over to Lucius, spat out the Punk, then the Punk Tailed Lucius. That was the first real non-bomb I've done with her, but now that I've clued in on it, I could see grabbing scheme runners on her first activation if necessary to taxi them across the board.

[Mikey_C]

1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

What do you find her strengths are, outside of the beast bomb? Other than taxiing beaters across the board, I struggle to think of any area where she's not outclassed by the other Masters. I'd be interested to hear about alternate styles for her!

I like to do the "offensive burying" thing, though I think that name is misleading. 
She can ping key models for slow which can really mess up the opponents plans. I play the Nothing beast as a tar pit. I've got the upgrade on Tara for + to initiative flips, and in my first action I will burn 3 cards. If the NB is already in the thick of it I will activate NB first, it will take 2 separate Def stance actions to ditch 1 card each, then drop another card on its (0) action, it will have 1 AP left to make an attack or 2 if it was fast. I would put them both against the biggest threat usually as 2 separate attacks for the bury trigger twice, unless a focused severe could kill it. Now the NB is def 6+ and the wretches are 5+. With the void shield upgrade (and even more so now that NB can spend soulstones) it can be VERY difficult to remove. So now NB has a full turn of def 6+ with  and the next turn you can activate it late so it continues to benefit from those  for 2 full turns. 

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, Kadeton said:

What do you find her strengths are, outside of the beast bomb? Other than taxiing beaters across the board, I struggle to think of any area where she's not outclassed by the other Masters. I'd be interested to hear about alternate styles for her!

Spare Parts makes her a very good Summoner and with her two Activations and 6 AP she can chase the Corpse Markers if needed. Autopsys also synergize really well if you're taxiing Sebastian - ping the enemies with Poison from afar and then throw Seb in their faces and watch those faces melt.

She can also do Schemes (try having a Nurse give her Wk a boost and watch stuff happen!) and intercept enemy Schemes. Pinging Slow onto key enemy models can make them really sad (in one game I completely neutered Lazarus by giving it Slow every round - it's a very sad model with just one AP). Fast pulse is of course awesome and Belles can Lure a single enemy into the midst of your guys to make the best use of it. Finally, with her 6AP, she can simply sword things dead surprisingly well if need arises.

Her only problem is that she is squishy against big scary melee beaters but that's why I usually use her as a skirmisher of sorts running every which way.

I like her versatility. When your whole plan doesn't hang in the balance based on whether your Killjoy alpha manages to kill enough enemies I find her more consistent.

(Oh, and in general I love Resser mid-cost models and consider the expensive ones a bit sub-par so I tend towards lots of 4-7 SS choices in my list building with this faction).

[Kadeton]

3 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

I like to do the "offensive burying" thing, though I think that name is misleading.

Ah, I've never found that works for me (assuming you're talking about burying the opponent's models with Tara's abilities). Glimpse the Void's unbury clause makes it way too easy for the opponent to get their model back, if you even manage to bury it in the first place given it's just a simple duel.

3 hours ago, Mikey_C said:

She can ping key models for slow which can really mess up the opponents plans. I play the Nothing beast as a tar pit. I've got the upgrade on Tara for + to initiative flips, and in my first action I will burn 3 cards. If the NB is already in the thick of it I will activate NB first, it will take 2 separate Def stance actions to ditch 1 card each, then drop another card on its (0) action, it will have 1 AP left to make an attack or 2 if it was fast. I would put them both against the biggest threat usually as 2 separate attacks for the bury trigger twice, unless a focused severe could kill it. Now the NB is def 6+ and the wretches are 5+. With the void shield upgrade (and even more so now that NB can spend soulstones) it can be VERY difficult to remove. So now NB has a full turn of def 6+ with  and the next turn you can activate it late so it continues to benefit from those  for 2 full turns. 

You know who else can ping enemy models for Slow? Nicodem.

When you activate the Nothing Beast first, does it bother you that you're giving up a second Master activation to do so? When I played Tara I often found myself in situations where I really needed to activate another model, and it always pained me to lose that Eternal Moment. Rigid activation order is one of the mechanics that puts her in the category of "too fiddly" for me.

The Nothing Beast is a total monster now that he's a Henchman, though.

33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Spare Parts makes her a very good Summoner and with her two Activations and 6 AP she can chase the Corpse Markers if needed. Autopsys also synergize really well if you're taxiing Sebastian - ping the enemies with Poison from afar and then throw Seb in their faces and watch those faces melt.

Do you take other models to create the corpses for her, or just rely on the natural flow of battle to generate them?

I hadn't thought about taxiing Sebastian into place, that's quite a neat trick and would potentially let him be a lot more active with Bloody Harvest. What else would you take to spread Poison, or are you just relying on the Autopsies? If you put Seb near the enemy crew, are you doing anything special to keep him alive?

33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

She can also do Schemes (try having a Nurse give her Wk a boost and watch stuff happen!) and intercept enemy Schemes. Pinging Slow onto key enemy models can make them really sad (in one game I completely neutered Lazarus by giving it Slow every round - it's a very sad model with just one AP). Fast pulse is of course awesome and Belles can Lure a single enemy into the midst of your guys to make the best use of it. Finally, with her 6AP, she can simply sword things dead surprisingly well if need arises.

Her only problem is that she is squishy against big scary melee beaters but that's why I usually use her as a skirmisher of sorts running every which way.

Can you explain how the Nurse Wk-boost works well with her? I'm guessing either Tara has to stay close enough during her first activation for the Nurse to chase after her and give her the meds for the second activation, or you're activating the Nurse first in which case Tara's only getting one activation and she's no better than any other Master. I can see it being okay, but it doesn't sound that great compared to what you can do with that same Nurse offensively.

33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I like her versatility. When your whole plan doesn't hang in the balance based on whether your Killjoy alpha manages to kill enough enemies I find her more consistent.

Yeah, I can see that to some extent. I guess it's mainly a playstyle difference - I find Masters that get described as "versatile" are usually the ones that I would call "reactive", in that they might have the tools to handle a wide range of situations but they don't really have what it takes to create situations the opponent is forced to respond to (Von Schill is another example of this). I much prefer to make my opponent be "versatile" in response to my core game plan than the other way around - that way I define the terms of the engagement.

33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

(Oh, and in general I love Resser mid-cost models and consider the expensive ones a bit sub-par so I tend towards lots of 4-7 SS choices in my list building with this faction).

Definitely, the Resser mid-range is exceptionally good. The top end is great if you can summon them, though!

[mojopin]

1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

Yeah, I can see that to some extent. I guess it's mainly a playstyle difference - I find Masters that get described as "versatile" are usually the ones that I would call "reactive", in that they might have the tools to handle a wide range of situations but they don't really have what it takes to create situations the opponent is forced to respond to (Von Schill is another example of this). I much prefer to make my opponent be "versatile" in response to my core game plan than the other way around - that way I define the terms of the engagement

I also think this way, tara playing against misaki, viks, or alpha arcanist is painful. Knowing that your master will probably die in a single activation makes you play too carefully, losing valuable VP. With walk 4 and low range CA Tara tends to be in dangerous spots frequently. 

[Mikey_C]

4 hours ago, Kadeton said:

 

You know who else can ping enemy models for Slow? Nicodem.

When you activate the Nothing Beast first, does it bother you that you're giving up a second Master activation to do so? When I played Tara I often found myself in situations where I really needed to activate another model, and it always pained me to lose that Eternal Moment. Rigid activation order is one of the mechanics that puts her in the category of "too fiddly" for me.

The Nothing Beast is a total monster now that he's a Henchman, though.

 

Sure but Tara can potentially ping for slow 5 times, and cause a TN 13 duel each time.

It's never bothered me. My way of looking at it has always been "I can get 3 AP from Tara now, but I'll lose the Nothing Beast before it activates and thus lose 2-3 ap anyways". 

I find that if Tara goes first those first 3AP aren't actually very high quality AP and so I will give them up quite easily. Also, the NB setup lasts 2 turns and if you can catch 3 models in its melee it is amazing. 

 

Generally while playing Tara I have 2 goals, get my hand down to 3 in my first activation, get my opponents hand down to 3 as soon as possible. All those TN 13 bury tests often just tax the opponents hand more than actually bury anything.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

You know who else can ping enemy models for Slow? Nicodem.

He doesn't have 6 AP to play around with, though. And when Tara goes first (in order to get the reactivate) and last she can ensure that some evil enemy is essentially perma-Slowed.

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Do you take other models to create the corpses for her, or just rely on the natural flow of battle to generate them?

Natural flow, mostly, but trying to ensure that I don't myself take too many Void critters or similar models that don't drop Corpses themselves. Again, her ability to go first and last helps with opportunistic utilization of Corpses. Oh, and my propensity for mid-range models also means that Corpses are probably a bit more plentiful than if I relied on fewer but more expensive models.

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

I hadn't thought about taxiing Sebastian into place, that's quite a neat trick and would potentially let him be a lot more active with Bloody Harvest. What else would you take to spread Poison, or are you just relying on the Autopsies? If you put Seb near the enemy crew, are you doing anything special to keep him alive?

I've found him surprisingly good at staying alive for some reason but I'm not quite sure why, to be honest. He can also himself naturally Poison stuff and then there's of course also Rafkin who I might take. I don't focus on Poison but Seb himself does absolutely insane damage if he simply manages to put two Poison on someone (non-SS user preferably) and then hang around.

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Can you explain how the Nurse Wk-boost works well with her? I'm guessing either Tara has to stay close enough during her first activation for the Nurse to chase after her and give her the meds for the second activation, or you're activating the Nurse first in which case Tara's only getting one activation and she's no better than any other Master. I can see it being okay, but it doesn't sound that great compared to what you can do with that same Nurse offensively.

In one game my Necropunk died on the other side of the field to something that had been sent to intercept him. Nurse pumped some medicine into Tara who then stormed 18" towards the goal and then spent her 6AP next turn laying down Scheme Markers and winning me the game. Again, an opportunistic use of her.

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Yeah, I can see that to some extent. I guess it's mainly a playstyle difference - I find Masters that get described as "versatile" are usually the ones that I would call "reactive", in that they might have the tools to handle a wide range of situations but they don't really have what it takes to create situations the opponent is forced to respond to (Von Schill is another example of this). I much prefer to make my opponent be "versatile" in response to my core game plan than the other way around - that way I define the terms of the engagement.

I must commend you on the phrase "I much prefer to make my opponent be "versatile"" which is IMO an absolutely brilliant sentence. Bravo! (we need a thumbs up smiley!)

As for the argument itself, I don't think that versatility means playing reactively. To me it means that you see an opening and take advantage of that and then your opponent has to react to that. It's not necessarily defensive in nature as such. When my super-versatile Zoraida rams an opportunistic Rooster into the opponent's backline that isn't reactive as such, I don't think. But, unlike Viks, she can also take the opposing Shikome and use that to charge the opponent's Autopsy.

To me versatility is the ability to take advantage of the holes in opponent's game. Viks do what they do and you can prepare and overcome. You can leave some holes and know that they will have a hard time capitalizing on them. A more versatile Master might not steamroll you as convincingly when you play against them for the first time but those holes should come back to bite you the arse more easily.

That said, I can see your viewpoint and feel like I understand where you're coming from. When you can build your force specifically for the coming challenge, what's the role of jacks of all trades? If you need to kill stuff you take a killer, if you need to control places you take a summoner and if you need to interact you take an interaction specialist. This is true of many minis games but Malifaux's system of multiple objectives IMO gives even the generalists their place.

Oh, and thank you - good stuff to think about and well argued!

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Definitely, the Resser mid-range is exceptionally good. The top end is great if you can summon them, though!

True. Many of them have been balanced around them being summonable which makes them somewhat lackluster as hires.

[Math Mathonwy]

8 minutes ago, Mikey_C said:

I find that if Tara goes first those first 3AP aren't actually very high quality AP and so I will give them up quite easily. Also, the NB setup lasts 2 turns and if you can catch 3 models in its melee it is amazing.

Oh, and this is a good point that I forgot to mention. Even though I do talk about 6AP a lot, I do give up on the reactivate pretty easily when needed. So those 6AP are there if I need them but I'm not sure I've played a game in a long time where I always went first with Tara. It's important to not get hung up on the reactivate, powerful though it may be!

[Kadeton]

Some very interesting food for thought in this discussion, thanks! I'll have to give Tara another look in future, with fewer preconceptions.

[Wifstrand]

I played Seamus over the weekend at Adepticon, and at every turn, I just thought to myself "I wish I had taken this other master instead", for all the reasons listed here.

[Saduhem]

19 hours ago, Wifstrand said:

I played Seamus over the weekend at Adepticon, and at every turn, I just thought to myself "I wish I had taken this other master instead", for all the reasons listed here.

I still stand by the fact that, if I need to abuse of -2 wp, then he might be worth considering. For everything else, there is someone better. His 1 ap teleport is outclassed by an 1 ap charge that offers you 2 highly accurate attacks AND the same movement AND with no further limitation on interact actions. With the 0 you can move further or make whatever you killed become an additional scheme marker.
His thing is the WP debuff, everything else Reva does much better. You can kill her more easily, but Seamus isn't worth going after in the first place. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well his WP debuff is actually one of the things that has been hurting him. Since wave 1 Ressers have gotten minimally good WP attacks that cause dmg or utility. And what they have gotten is either very expensive and mediocre, Anna Lovelace's wretched blade, or better than nothing but that's about it, Goryo's 0 action. Compare with what NB has gotten, even totally ignoring the Widow Weaver, just decent WP attacks on general models, and if some of that was available to the resser faction he'd be in a better place. Heck even just the knights being available would be a good buff.

His Bag's triggers haven't stood the test of time. Misaki and his auto death triggers were, again rightfully at the time, overly conservative in their design if the current crop of masters abilities are considered balanced. Asami has a better death trigger, useable at will with a stone, on a better or comparable attack, and if it doesn't break the game I feel neither would Seamus and Misaki being able to stone for their suit. Additionally the Death Mark Trigger has changed in utility. During Wave 1 being a peon was only a bad thing. So getting hit with the mark really hurt. Now it can actually be hurtful to you to actually put the death mark on an enemy because so many schemes and strats that require killing require you to kill non-peons. It was always relatively a niche trigger but generally always useful in some way, now the niche has shrunk, and it is sometimes detrimental to put the condition on an enemy. The defensive buff was always sort of meh and it remains meh, not great, but not terrible. And THE reason to bring the bag, in my opinion at least, the Tome trigger has declined in importance in multiple ways. It used to be very very good in wave 1/2, but with the, again rightly, shift in how the distance between scheme markers has been increased for scoring purposed to keep things Like Colette and the Mech Rider in check, the value to using the bag has decreased. Additionally with the rise of models in most factions that can destroy scheme markers in a burst, and models like Phiona with Transparency, who do more damage and automatically get to drop a marker without having to stone for it serving as a new baseline for what needs to be done to compete against it, the uniqueness, and utility has fallen.

His Teleport also hasn't stood the test of time. The limitation on the interact on his and Zoraida's Animal Form again made sense at the time, but as the scenario rules have shifted, and more and more new baseline abilities have filled the game, their uniqueness and power has fallen. Both Sandeep and Asami have better and less costly teleports available to them that also don't prevent taking interact actions after using, with less restrictions on where they can go.

As the game has progressed more and more models have come out that have attacks useable at range that ignore cover, and or don't randomize into combat, and those abilities, at least to my eyes, are becoming the new baseline expectation for models. Having to abide by cover and having to randomize into combat on a master level attack is becoming less and less useful as more models come out that can do one or both.

And the big reason I'm struggling with Seamus, and I feel others struggle with some of the lesser regarded masters, is a lack of interesting choices to make. When I play Molly I always feel when it's her turn to go I always have interesting choices to make. Which model should I give an extra AP to, should I summon and if so what should I summon, Should I card cycle with Revelations hoping to slow or paralyze the enemy, should I debuff them with her Whispered secret, what position does she need to be in for maximum impact with minimal retaliation? I always feel like I have multiple choices to make and generally they are all interesting. Seamus and many of the lesser regarded masters doesn't have that. If he can manage to stay completely out of LOS, which is very difficult, he gets a small amount of choice as to where to go, but generally unless we are playing on basically a mazelike board there aren't actually that many viable places to land. With only the ability to use his gun once per turn there is added pressure to get as much use from it as possible. It says something that I feel a 3/4/5 gun useable at will would just be flat out better on him than a usable once per turn 4/6/7. And if you miss with your one good action, well too bad for your master than turn. Which is compounded by his escape mechanisims. To get out of combat without outside help requires he use his Bored now trigger, which is easily counterplayed by an opponent, especially as when Seamus lands entire vectors of escape are generally cut off. Again when it was designed it made sense and was very appropriate, but baseline expectations have changed based on the new abilities of models that have come out and now it is becoming harder and harder to lock down top tier masters, and those that can be easily locked down fall lower in competitiveness.

And pertaining to the above he has a dearth of good options for 0 actions, and all of them require the use of a corpse being close by, which doesn't happen every game, which means multiple turns of the game can pass by with him taking no useful 0 action. Both of his 0 actions are solid, but again it's not gerenally the case, at least in my experience, that there is an interesting decision to be made regarding either one. I find in almost all situations it is beyond obvious which option is best to take, and then only if a corpse is close by. 

I don't think Seamus was badly designed. I was very happy with him during the first, and most of the second wave. I Just think that as the game has changed and new models have come out what he does just isn't as relevant anymore. He still does what he has aways done, it's just those things don't work as well, have less of an impact on the game, and new baselines have changed what was once very good abilities to being now subpar. As a contrast McMorning's abilities have all held up better, and as the game has changed and new models have come out his skill set has adapted well.

If I were to suggest minor errata and fixes for the future, I'd change it so Misaki and Seamus could just baseline stone for their death triggers on their appropriate actions. I'd look at removing all limitations on interact actions for hyper movement on masters like Seamus and Zoraida. And if they ever decide to give the masters new upgrades I'd give ones that gave useable (1) actions that could compete with his gun so that every turn wasn't Focus shoot, and some additional options on 0 actions that don't require corpses. I'd very much like an AP sharing one for Belles for example.