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benjoewoo

Witchling Stalker and Searing Mark on death

Question

Does the Witchling Stalker's Searing Mark ability proc on death due to Flaming Demise? Or is it determined by the First Player? Or, is it determined by the person who controls the Witchling Stalker? 

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18 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Does the Witchling Stalker's Searing Mark ability proc on death due to Flaming Demise?

Yes, it does.  It's not optional.  It's mandatory because they're both abilities.

Quote

Explosive Demise 1: All models within :pulse2 suffer 1 damage when this model is killed.

Searing Mark: All models damaged by this model gain the Burning +1 Condition.

When a model suffers damage due to Explosive Demise, it's being damaged by the Witchling Stalker so Searing Mark applies.  If Searing Mark specified "damaged by this model's attacks" then it wouldn't apply.

Otherwise the FAQ concerning killing a model using an ability would be meaningless:

Quote

3) If a model is killed by an Ability or Action, which Crew counts as having made the kill?

When a model is killed as the result of an Action, the Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

 

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14 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

I figured the answer was yes it worked that way. But why is the searing mark ability able to proc after the witchling stalker has been killed? 

Try the simpler question:  Why am I resolving Explosive Demise after/when the model has been killed?

It's the same answer.

14 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Essentially, since Searing Mark has no timing requirement, is that why it gets by?

The Searing Mark ability only requires that the model cause the damage. 

14 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Explosive Demise only occurs on the model with the ability being killed, so during the killed process, you get Explosive Demise before removing the model--during this time the model's card is still relevant to the represented model?

Sure, that's one way of looking at it.  But you're at least partially misguided on the "the model's card is still relevant to the represented model."

Remember the definition of an Ability:

Quote

ABILITIES

Models have special Abilities that change how they interact with the rules, such as making the model difficult to damage, or giving it strange ways of moving. A model’s Abilities are considered to be active during an Encounter unless otherwise indicated in their description. All Abilities are capitalized.


The model was killed.  So you resolving Explosive Demise because Explosive Demise changes what happens when the model is killed.  While you're resolving Explosive Demise, the model is causing damage, so Searing Mark applies because that changes what happens when the model causes damage.

A model's rules don't stop applying just because the model is dead or sacrificed.  As long as the model is in the game, all of its abilities still apply.  You don't remove the model from the game until after it's been removed from the table and thus after resolving its death (including whatever abilities or conditions would apply).

 

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8 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

The simpler question is inapplicable, I think, because Explosive Demise references being killed. At least in the rulebook, killed is defined as a default state when a model is reduced to 0 Wds, at which point, on pg. 46, "f the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed." But, below is a question that may make this portion of our discussion irrelevant.

The only things that would prevent that are effects that state they occur before a model is removed from play. I agree an ability is active and may proc any number of legal times during an Encounter so long as such interactions are legal.

I'm just asking for a clarification on the precise timing for how the abilities interact, or an explanation of whether abilities operate independently of a model's current status, because the rules state that if a model is reduced to 0 wounds, it is by default removed immediately. A mechanic must insert itself between being reduced to 0 wounds and removing the model from play. 

The rules don't state that, once removed from play, models cannot resolve their abilities. So, in theory, a model could be released that interacts with previously removed from play models that procs an ability(s) of that removed model. Yan Lo as far as I know is the only model with interactions with non-buried removed from play models, but none of his interactions could proc an ability on any of those models prior to summoning--Yokai gain flicker on being summoned, but that's a result of coming back into play as opposed to just by being targeted or interacted with. 

So, what I'm asking is not whether searing mark would/would not apply, because I agree that it does after initial thoughts and reading your answer. What I am asking is the "why"? Is timing a relevant discussion, or does it resolve because abilities on models can resolve regardless of model status?

It's no inapplicable. Explosive demise happens when the model is killed, not before. So for explosive demise to be able to happen abilities must be able to proc even if the model is dead(but still in play).

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18 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

So, what I'm asking is not whether searing mark would/would not apply, because I agree that it does after initial thoughts and reading your answer. What I am asking is the "why"? Is timing a relevant discussion, or does it resolve because abilities on models can resolve regardless of model status?

Please explain why you're not questioning Explosive Demise working when the model is killed, but you're questioning one of the other model's abilities working when it's killed.  Why do you have a double standard as far abilities working when the model is killed?

You're confused because you've made up a distinction that the authors of the rules aren't using.

 

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As a reminder, the definition of Abilities puts the default at active unless otherwise indicated.

Quote

ABILITIES

Models have special Abilities that change how they interact with the rules, such as making the model difficult to damage, or giving it strange ways of moving. A model’s Abilities are considered to be active during an Encounter unless otherwise indicated in their description. All Abilities are capitalized. 

That means that Searing Mark is going to apply while you're resolving Explosive Demise.  

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I figured the answer was yes it worked that way. But why is the searing mark ability able to proc after the witchling stalker has been killed? 

Also I'm unsure about the quote RE the abilities killing models--not sure how it's applicable. Just trying to get a sense of the more detailed timing required to make the searing mark proc after explosive demise.

Essentially, since Searing Mark has no timing requirement, is that why it gets by? Explosive Demise only occurs on the model with the ability being killed, so during the killed process, you get Explosive Demise before removing the model--during this time the model's card is still relevant to the represented model?

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

Try the simpler question:  Why am I resolving Explosive Demise after/when the model has been killed?

It's the same answer.

The Searing Mark ability only requires that the model cause the damage. 

Sure, that's one way of looking at it.  But you're at least partially misguided on the "the model's card is still relevant to the represented model."

Remember the definition of an Ability:


The model was killed.  So you resolving Explosive Demise because Explosive Demise changes what happens when the model is killed.  While you're resolving Explosive Demise, the model is causing damage, so Searing Mark applies because that changes what happens when the model causes damage.

A model's rules don't stop applying just because the model is dead or sacrificed.  As long as the model is in the game, all of its abilities still apply.  You don't remove the model from the game until after it's been removed from the table and thus after resolving its death (including whatever abilities or conditions would apply).

 

The simpler question is inapplicable, I think, because Explosive Demise references being killed. At least in the rulebook, killed is defined as a default state when a model is reduced to 0 Wds, at which point, on pg. 46, "f the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed." But, below is a question that may make this portion of our discussion irrelevant.

The only things that would prevent that are effects that state they occur before a model is removed from play. I agree an ability is active and may proc any number of legal times during an Encounter so long as such interactions are legal.

I'm just asking for a clarification on the precise timing for how the abilities interact, or an explanation of whether abilities operate independently of a model's current status, because the rules state that if a model is reduced to 0 wounds, it is by default removed immediately. A mechanic must insert itself between being reduced to 0 wounds and removing the model from play. 

The rules don't state that, once removed from play, models cannot resolve their abilities. So, in theory, a model could be released that interacts with previously removed from play models that procs an ability(s) of that removed model. Yan Lo as far as I know is the only model with interactions with non-buried removed from play models, but none of his interactions could proc an ability on any of those models prior to summoning--Yokai gain flicker on being summoned, but that's a result of coming back into play as opposed to just by being targeted or interacted with. 

So, what I'm asking is not whether searing mark would/would not apply, because I agree that it does after initial thoughts and reading your answer. What I am asking is the "why"? Is timing a relevant discussion, or does it resolve because abilities on models can resolve regardless of model status?

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On 2/26/2017 at 3:59 PM, solkan said:

Please explain why you're not questioning Explosive Demise working when the model is killed, but you're questioning one of the other model's abilities working when it's killed.  Why do you have a double standard as far abilities working when the model is killed?

You're confused because you've made up a distinction that the authors of the rules aren't using.

 

I think that's what I'm trying to clarify.

Explosive Demise specifically references when the model is killed. Searing Mark does not. Does that distinction matter? 

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