Help understanding Avatars

[Lordunborn]

I am a new player.  I just started and am reading the rule books and I have a few questions on Avatars.

1. M2E has no avatar models correct?  I know there are old 1.0 and 1.5 metals but no avatar models are currently in production correct?

2. Avatar upgrade cards are found in shifting loyalties as campaign upgrades and are specifically not tournament legal but can be used in non campaign games  with approval of all players correct?

3. Core rule book page 56 has Avatar Upgrades but I cannot find any avatar upgrade cards except for those in shifting loyalties and nowhere can I see any Manifestation cards in any of the books or the two generalist upgrade packs i have (I have not purchased the Shifting Loyalties pack though so this may be an easy answer).

4. Which rules are correct for Avatars?  Core rule book or Shifting Loyalties?  

I am assuming (and I may very well be wrong) that there was originally plans for Avatars in M2E and are in the core rule book.  Then more detailed rules (with manifestation events) came out in Shifting Loyalties but at the same time made them "officially" campaign only upgrades to maintain  balance.

Thanks for the assistance 

I am an addict when it comes to gaming and so far have amassed 4 neverborn masters and crews and the starter set along with all the generalist upgrades and rule books and have yet to play a single game (I don't play with unpainted models and finally finished my first crew and the starter set the other day).

[Fetid Strumpet]

1) Correct

2) Correct. The Avatars are campaign only. Players can agree to use them in a friendly game if they want, but its pretty much exactly the same thing as saying it's cool that if Lady J wants she can hire the Carrion Emissary if both players agree. The Avatars are not balanced for an even game, but if both players just agree to allow it it can be fun to just ignore the rules on that point. I've played a few games where both players just got to take their avatar for free and they were fun.

3) This is probably an issue with outdated verbage. At the start of the open for wave 3 Wyrd said they had had some changes of thought on the avatars and were presenting them in a way different from origionally intended. It is possible, but who knows, that Avatars might have been origionally intended as an upgrade, which would be my guess based on the verbiage you quoted. There are no Avatar upgrades in the game currently though.

4) Shifting Loyalties.

In response to your follow up, yes, the general opinion is that Wyrd had an idea for how Avatars would work when book 1 came out, and by the time Avatars were ironed out they had different thoughts. One of the big ones was their economic argument. If it's still up the former lead designer of Malifaux, Justin Gibbs, had a post on the topic on his blog, Justin Drawing Dead, that might clear the issue up further for you. 

[santaclaws01]

The manifestation cards are in the Shifting Loyalties campaign deck, but they're just card form of the manifestations in the core rule book. Both the core rule book and shifting loyalties are correct for avatar rules.

[solkan]

15 minutes ago, Lordunborn said:

 

3. Core rule book page 56 has Avatar Upgrades but I cannot find any avatar upgrade cards except for those in shifting loyalties and nowhere can I see any Manifestation cards in any of the books or the two generalist upgrade packs i have (I have not purchased the Shifting Loyalties pack though so this may be an easy answer).

4. Which rules are correct for Avatars?  Core rule book or Shifting Loyalties?  

The core rulebook has the basic rules for avatars and the associated avatar upgrades.  Those rules are explicitly referenced on page 30 of Shiting Loyalties, and aren't replaced by new rules.  

It is just that Shifting Loyalties has the only set of avatar upgrades published so far.  (And indications are that the official avatars are going to stay that way...).

The Manifestation cards mentioned in the core rules are described on page 30 of Shifting Loyalties, and should be in the Shifting Loyalties deck along with the avatars.

For what it's worth, the way the avatar rules are set up you could write up a set of generic avatar upgrades for use in a story encounter or special event or whatever.  That's one of the reasons those rules are in the core rulebook.

 

[Lordunborn]

Makes sense.  So the Base core rule book is really only part of the avatar rules.  They are incomplete.  If I was to have only purchased the base rule book I wouldn't be able to actually play the avatars as there are no manifestation cards and no avatar upgrade cards.  Then call out manifestation events but no descriptions of what those events are.  They work in conjunction with Shifting Loyalties Avatar rules and are campaign or friendly game with consultation only and really need the shifting loyalty manifestation events and upgrades.  Aside from making my own rules and events (I am not one for making my own rules and stuff as that is why I buy rule books and card decks).

 

Thanks for the input.

[solkan]

18 minutes ago, Lordunborn said:

Makes sense.  So the Base core rule book is really only part of the avatar rules.  They are incomplete.  

No, not incomplete.  You don't call the regular Upgrade rules incomplete because you need actual upgrade cards from the boxed sets to play.  You don't call the Rules Manual incomplete because it only contains the rules and none of the cards for any of the models.

18 minutes ago, Lordunborn said:

If I was to have only purchased the base rule book I wouldn't be able to actually play the avatars as there are no manifestation cards and no avatar upgrade cards.  Then call out manifestation events but no descriptions of what those events are.  They work in conjunction with Shifting Loyalties Avatar rules and are campaign or friendly game with consultation only and really need the shifting loyalty manifestation events and upgrades.  Aside from making my own rules and events (I am not one for making my own rules and stuff as that is why I buy rule books and card decks).

I wonder if you're missing the point.

New story encounters are written all of the time.  Those get published in boxed sets, published in the books, and used a conventions and tournaments.  Story encounters and scenarios have custom cards, rules, and models all of the time.  An encounter booklet with avatar cards wouldn't be any different.

Or, if someone wanted to host an Avatars tournament or something, they could do so.  They could either write up their own manifest event cards and Avatar cards, use the ones from Shifting Loyalties, or modify those cards.  I sort of assume someone has already done so, and just hasn't made a big deal about it.  It would, after all, be a really convenient mechanism for doing a series of story encounters as a weekend campaign.

So the rulebook is written to serve what people could do if they wanted to.