Seamus Crew Suggestions

[sillybrian]

I picked up a Seamus crew box and some assorted additional models and I really would love to try him out.  I have to prioritize assembly and painting so I thought Id see what suggestions people have.

My idea for a crew with models I own looks basically like this:

Seamus

Copycat

Madame Sybelle

Rotten Belle x1

Dead Doxy x1

The Hanged x1

Crooligan x1

Bete Noire

The rest of the SS on upgrades.

I also have in my collection the Valedictorian & Students, Anna Lovelace, Nico's crew box, and Necropunks, but I would assemble and paint these later on unless I need to change my list above. (I never play with unpainted models so a crew list for me is an investment in time and priority).

What do you guys think?  Should I focus on my list or am I about to do it wrong?

[godswearhats]

Malifaux isn't designed with fixed lists in mind. However, running a fixed list is arguably the best way to learn a subset of your faction's models. This list seems fine for doing just that. You may want to include another Belle or Doxy in your paint list in order to summon. If you are playing against players of similar experience levels, this will likely be a very strong list. 

[sillybrian]

8 minutes ago, godswearhats said:

Malifaux isn't designed with fixed lists in mind. However, running a fixed list is arguably the best way to learn a subset of your faction's models. This list seems fine for doing just that. You may want to include another Belle or Doxy in your paint list in order to summon. If you are playing against players of similar experience levels, this will likely be a very strong list. 

Yeah as I get models painted I can have flexibility, so the fixed list is really just a starting point.  Thanks for the feedback!  I forgot about the summon, so yeah I need another belle or doxy also, apparently.

[Andre III]

1 hour ago, sillybrian said:

I picked up a Seamus crew box and some assorted additional models and I really would love to try him out.  I have to prioritize assembly and painting so I thought Id see what suggestions people have.

My idea for a crew with models I own looks basically like this:

Seamus

Copycat

Madame Sybelle

Rotten Belle x1

Dead Doxy x1

The Hanged x1

Crooligan x1

Bete Noire

The rest of the SS on upgrades.

I also have in my collection the Valedictorian & Students, Anna Lovelace, Nico's crew box, and Necropunks, but I would assemble and paint these later on unless I need to change my list above. (I never play with unpainted models so a crew list for me is an investment in time and priority).

What do you guys think?  Should I focus on my list or am I about to do it wrong?

Hello

The real question is, what upgrades you going to take, and what you expecting those models must do. As for me, i'd suggest to swap Doxy to second Belle, and to think about some heavy hitter. I've got a very good experience using Seamus with Sinister Reputation, Bishop and Hanged.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Welcome to Malifaux. Seamus is my favorite master, and I've been playing him since Rising Powers, so I have some pretty strong opinions, though they are certainly not necessarily always right, so take any advice here and filter it through your own experiences .

 Are you looking to play casual or competitive? The reason I ask is that Malifaux as a game is built to adapt to specific scenarios, and in general, outside of very specific masters (Seamus isn't one of them in my opinion) it is very hard to get down to a static list that always comes out in every scenario, against every faction, on every type of table. 

So if you are looking for casual, narrative play, I don't see any issues with whatever you want to play.

For competitive, I'd say try your list and see what you think before taking any advice from anyone else. That said I personally see a good amount of... I'll say challenges to overcome with it.

First is an understanding of how Seamus, if you are planning to successfully use his gun each turn (the calculations range if that isn't a part of your plan) puts stress on your hand. Assuming you want to use his Back Ally ability, that is going to 50% of the time drain a 7+ from your hand. Assuming you want a reliable chance to hit with your gun, and cheat dmg, that likely means the two highest value cards you have in your hand will also be automatically accounted for. So just using Seamus to shoot and hit with his gun means on average turns you may be spending up to half your control hand, just to make him work. That's important to understand in how he interacts with some of the other models on your list.

First Bete Noir. Some people like Bete with Seamus, I have to say I do not. The problem is, in order for her to maintain her survivability, you need to conserve a 10+ in you hand at all times while she's out. For some masters that isn't a big deal, but for Seamus, I find it tends to be a problem, because as previously mentioned, on some turns you are going to need to use half your hand just getting your master to function as designed, and all of those required cards are probably going to be 7+ which, statistically, you can only realistically expect about half your hand to be 7+ in value (yes I know the maths are more intricate than that, I'm summarizing), so in adding another model that needs a 10+ you are unlikely to be able to utilize both models to their fullest extent each turn. That 10+ is just so difficult to account for I just tend to find she either cuts into the effectiveness of other models, or I have to let her die too early, lessening the effectiveness of her and making her not worth the investment.

For a similar reason, with Seamus, with one exception, I don't tend to ever hire Doxies. The issue is with their Take the Lead ability, and the fact that it requires a 7+. and only that low if you are planning on using it mainly to move your own models around. Plan on moving an enemy, and you are looking at generally needing higher numbers to overcome their reluctance to allow you to control their models. Again it's just too much strain on the hand to require half the hand for Seamus to work, and then averaging another 7+ just to get the doxy to work at full effectiveness. You can certainly use a focus action before using Take the Lead, but I find if I'm doing that again the Doxy is not pulling the full weight a 6SS investment should. I do find if you run the Carrion Emissary with the Carrion Conflux they turn out well again for hiring.

Another issue I find is the Hanged. It's one of those models players of other factions absolutely hate to see on the table, and they were one of the most complained about models in the early days of M2E, but if you look at what you get for their cost, they are, again in my opinion, generally NEVER worth hiring, for 9SS their big thing is the ability to take a model to half wounds and prevent it from healing. The second ability very powerful, but only if you use it against a master that A) relies on healing and B) doesn't have easy access to condition removal. Most factions that will suffer most from that condition also generally have a model that gets taken all the time for other reasons, and also just happens to have condition removal as well (Johan and The Low River Monk). Ironically, though Ressers have access to Chikai, she doesn't show up in a majority of lists the way those other two models seem to, at least after book 4, Seamus is also a master who the Hanged would be incredibly deadly to, as his entire mechanic of survivability tied to his ability to heal. So bringing a hanged exposes Seamus to a large degree of danger if the enemy has any method of taking control of your models and using them on you. Additionally while that ability seems formidable it really isn't because of the way maths work. Let's say you hit a model with 12 wounds with that ability. You knock them to 6. You then attack them again and knock them to 3. Attack again and knock them to 1. Attack them again and they finally die, requiring 4 AP to kill the enemy model. If you just hired a model with min 3 dmg you would kill the enemy model in the same amount of hits, or possibly less if you get lucky and spike your dmg with a moderate or severe. But let's say you want to kill a scheme runner with 4 wounds. First attack takes them to 2, second attack takes them to 1, third attack kills them. That takes 1 more AP to kill them than a model with min 3 (like Anna) would. Add to that that they are incredibly fragile and die pretty much to a stiff breeze and you get a recipe for a model that just never does enough to be worth hiring in my opinion. Summoning them is another matter.

If I was trying to learn the game with the models you have in stock and was trying to prioritize painting order I'd do something like this for a basic list:

 

Seamus

CCK

Sybelle

Valedictorian

Anna Lovelace

Rotten Belle x2 (you'll want to paint all 3 or more for summons as well, and paint a doxy for summoning as well)

Nurse (if you have one if not random other model you want to try)

 

The valedictorian brings trigger shutdown to the table (which is another wp duel to heal Seamus) as well as being a tough model to remove and not requiring specific cards to function.

Anna lets you card cycle, is tough to remove, and brings a great ranged attack to assist in killing models that move to engage seamus, or are tangled up with your belles.

The nurse... I've posted a lot on why Seamus should always consider 1 nurse.

The Belles, obvious. 

 

I don't know if that helped, but hopefully it did. =)

 

 

[sillybrian]

@Fetid Strumpettoo much text to quote, but that was very informative!  I had no idea about the control hand issues.  I can certainly see how that will be important.  Thank you for that!

I'm not planning on playing competitively any time soon, I'm still just enjoying learning the game.

Someday I will pick up the Nurses, probably with McMourning.  I hadn't really done the research when I bought stuff, or maybe I would have already grabbed that.

I was surprised about the belles, and how you recommend two instead of 1 belle and 1 doxy.  I guess I always just heard that they synergize well, and took it for granted?  What you are saying makes sense.

I love the Valedictorian model, so swapping that in is a no brainer.  I eyeball that sprue all the time anyway, so good to have reason to start it.  I haven't quite got my head wrapped around Anna Lovelace yet, so it is interesting to see her in the list... having not played much, she is a bit hard to visualize.  Honestly I had actually picked her up to go with Von Skill who is just about hot off my paint stand.  I will have to just try her out I guess.

Thanks again for the feedback, I had no idea how much Seamus depended on the control hand or how that impacts choices.

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well and it depends on the appliction. If you don't care about doing max damage you don't need two high cards for dmg from the gun. If you can tolerate moderate it eases pressure slightly on the hand, but statistically it only opens potentially 1 slot from the 3 cards you can reasonably expect to be 7+ in your hand and then only if it a 6. 

Anna is good for Seamus, at times. She can be a hard for since she doesn't have an extra AP and doesn't really buff the crew at all. But her ability to shoot into combats without randomization is great. If models try to tie up Seamus so he can't use his gun she can still snipe them with min dmg 3. If she gets lucky with moderate or severe either summon can be good for Seamus. Seishin attack wp, so if using sinister reputation they are effectively an attack stat 6 when operating near him, and healing him if they succeed. Mindless zombies are good for blocking charge lanes and also mobile markers for both arise my sweet and red chapel killer.

Additionally if she operates in charge distance, with sinister reputation her wretched blade is effectively ml 7 if you target wp, and while the dmg is pitiful it has some nasty triggers, which can also benefit from sinister reputation, like glimpse the void.

Other models to keep on your potential purchase radar are Philip and the Nanny, Yin, and especially the Carrion Emissary. 

[hydranixx]

I agree with Fetid Strumpet, particularly where the Nurse is concerned. Prioritizing your painting and assembly is one thing, but prioritizing buying Nurses, making a conversion or proxying them, is a must as well! With a Nurse, every control card is a very potent resource to take advantage of.

One awesome thing Fetid Strumpet points out in S&S's Seamus podcast is that if a Nurse uses Hallucinagens on Seamus he goes from helpless in Melee to being an absolute monster. Ml 7, minimum damage 3, with triggers to either attack a second time for free or push 4" to a new target to continue pimpslapping. It's not always the right use of cards or his AP, but a potential 18 damage in one activation from slapping someone is a wonderful thing. Of course, this is similarly potent on someone like the Valedictorian, so I agree that she's a decent choice in Seamus crews.

There is some synergy with the little aura that Crooligans put out, but I think just hiring another Belle is better since you already have Sybelle. Sybelle's aura + (0) Call Belle makes 2 or so Belles sufficiently mobile to run your schemes when you're not Luring things around. If the scheme pool is super interact heavy, then a Crooligan or Necropunk or both are great choices, but in a more general pool, another Belle is more useful.

Even when you eventually play Nico, you will likely find hiring Belles to be more advantageous than Crooligans or Necropunks. You might even summon more Belles throughout the game with your 9's and 10's, so its all the more reason to paint all available Belles and 1-2 Doxies.

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Other models to keep on your potential purchase radar are Philip and the Nanny, Yin, and especially the Carrion Emissary. 

May I ask, when you take Philip with Seamus, do you include a dedicated model to helping get scheme markers in play early for him? With Molly I've found a Doxy + Philip to be a fantastic early game card combo, but as discussed Seamus and Doxies don't see eye to eye as far as your 7's and 8's in hand are concerned.

[Fetid Strumpet]

It depends. I'm becoming less and less enamored of having another model dedicated to working with them, outside specific situations. Philip and a Doxy are 14 SS worth of models and a 7+ for the full card draw and cycling. Yasunori costs 12 and gets the card the first time it takes dmg, and it's great sage ability takes a 6 and is better than the card cycling Philip does, and he costs 12, in addition to being one of the best beater models in the game, so I'm loath to spend more than that on models that don't have close to the effect on the game. Philip is pretty good even if he has no support. Philip's haunting cries upgrade gives him a ranged attack targeting WP that is a good supplement, or replacement for Sybelle's Shriek, and he is really good at protecting the back field from enemy scheme runners, and destroying the markers they might drop.

I'd say if the terrain, enemy crew, and scenario are conducive to it I'd deploy models to drop markers for Philip on the first turn, and perhaps Belles might be able to be stationary to drop a marker and attempt a lure or undress each turn, but I'm less and less hiring a babysitter for extra markers, outside of the Kirai Engine the UK players came up with.

[hydranixx]

Fair call. Yeah, it does seem very expensive when it's just for cards. Part of me wants to justify it because the Doxy gets to push Philip or a high value model of your choice - Izamu/Rogue Necro/Sybelle as a biproduct of this scheme marker generation. I will try with and without the Doxy to see how I feel about this.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If it works it works. I've just found there is a tipping point for the value you get out of the cards vs how many stones of models hang around at the back. I'm not sure exactly where that line is for any particular scenario.

[Clement]

18 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

...outside of the Kirai Engine the UK players came up with.

I've been digging for this for a while and come up dry.  Please elaborate?

[Fetid Strumpet]

http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/114870-schemes-stones-master-spotlight-kirai-ankoku/#comment-921407