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Mewens

Looking for Lilith tips

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After a few busy months with very few games, I'm finally settling back into a routine that'll let me play some more. Seemed like a decent time to pick up a new master, and I've been meaning to play Lilith for a while.

Thing is, my Google-fu didn't find a lot of concrete tips for her. She looks like a tricky, tricky master, so I'm turning to you guys for some direction.

My concerns up front:
1. Lilith feels like she needs a bodyguard. Barbaros fits the bill nicely, between Challenge and his built-in pushes (to trigger Living Blade). Still, all the decent bodyguards are expensive, with most of them clocking in at 10+ points. How badly does she actually need a minder?
2. And she's in a weird place when it comes to lures. Lilith looks like she excels when she can pick single mano-a-nephilim fights, but her built-in lure options need a mess of soulstones. The true lures on Beckoners and Lilitu don't trigger Living Blade. Is that a problem, or just a stumbling block? (Speaking of Living Blade ...)
3. I have no clue how to evaluate Living Blade or Wicked Mistress. They're powerful effects, but they come with a commensurate price tag. Living Blade in particular has a "build-around-me" vibe, since it requires pushes to trigger its pseudo-Pounce. Have you guys found these upgrades to be too cute? Or do they live up to their promise? Does Wicked Mistress hold up if you're not using Living Blade?

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If you are a podcast listener then listen to the Schemes and Stones Podcast about Lilith. That will answer all your questions and helps a lot.

In summary though. I wouldn't say Lilith needs a bodygaurd, she can use Tangle Shadows to escape engagment if needed. Though she does like to have at least one beefy model near her. Mr Graves is quite good for this and relatively cheap.

Personally, I rarely take Living Blade or Wicked Mistress. Living blade is too expensive for what it does and the pounce is only 1" so is extremely situational.

Wicked Mistress requires quite a high card and a mask which is competing with tangle shadows which does a similar thing. And like you said, you could always use Lilitu or Beckoners.

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Her only upgrade that I use every time is her forest.  Everything else is situational, and chances are I'm happier with FGF on her.  She isn't the most tanky melee master, but she does have a whole lot of tricks to make up for it.

That particular episode of S&S has the best advice I could have gotten with her, which is to ignore her sword for a while.  The other tricks she can do are extremely useful in a lot of situations, so her sword should be considered secondary to everything else she does.  That way when you add the sword back in, it's just icing on top of an extremely dangerous cake.

Being able to root enemies is a good enough trick on its own, and the one I use most often.  I will use Tangle Shadows to throw her around, but I don't use it on an opponent as often as I should.  If you have the suit in hand, doing that is more effective than walking with her.

 

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Shes better off out of the thick of things in my experience. 

Rooting melee masters and other big hitters is awesomely powerful as well as blocking channels and los with BM.

I usually take her with primordial and wings of darkness...if you stone for cards then when all is said and done she is cycling 11 cards before the first activation.

I dont usuly use her to get into a scrap, more lurking just out of the fight and swooping on opportune targets when they present themselves. 

Barbaross is my go to henchman as he is pretty amazing at most things. Challenge has won me games on its own.

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The usual advice for Lilith is to play 10 games without using her sword. Look at her other upgrades and abilities. After those 10 games, you'll probably not end up using her sword unless it's absolutely needed, and that's how she should play. You should be moving models around with Tangle Shadows, Rooting enemies, placing Illusionary Forests and, well, using her for what she excels at. Her sword has a nice damage track, but to use her as a beater is missing the point. Her sword should be a scalpel. If she's in a good position where a charge will finish something off in one hit, do it. It generally means you won't be picking a fight with anything too tough, but you should have other models for that. In any other situation, she's simply got better things to spend her AP on.

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4 hours ago, SzatanSoft said:

Thats quite nice so that she can use this to escape or move for a very long distance 

And don't forget that the secondary place effect still happens even when she sends herself. So after Lilith places next to the target the target will then be placed next to Lilith. If your target is an enemy you could use this to place an enemy outside of a scoring zone, inside your scoring zone, into a charge lane for your beaters, etc. If your target is a friendly you can use this to set up a charge, place your unit that extra inch to score/disengage, move your unit out of LoS or around a corner. 

In in the right situation it's amazing the impact that inch can have.

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As to more general advice I always run Beckon Malifaux and Wings of Darkness. If you have hand advantage she's hard to kill. Learning where to place your trees from Beckon Malifaux is an art form and the better you get the more you will understand, her trees make her a nightmare for LoS reliant opponents. 

It works with any beater unit, but I encourage you to try the Nekima slingshot. Run something fast upfield, or wait for an enemy to overextend, then Tangle that unit with an unactivated Nekima. Now their activated unit is next to Lilith and they have to deal with a late turn Nekima charge. Used this yesterday and got a turn 1 dead Mech Rider for my troubles. 

Between smart placement and her forests she shouldn't be getting many attacks she doesn't choose to take. Remember to use her Disapear trigger and Stanford the mask if you have a high card, stone to prevent went needed. Make sure to cozy your Nephilim up to the enemy for black blood.

i rarely take living blade or Wicked Mistress. When I do it's because I'm trying out a pounce list. Living blade gives a 3" engagement and +flips on attack, but I rarely find that worth it without purpose. 

Never, EVER let Lilith stand next to a Stitched.... Bad memories

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It's important to note as well that Tangle Shadows is Ca5. Don't over rely on it, because it's too resource intensive to spam (requiring both a suit and a 9+ just to succeed).

i use it frequently, but it's a scalpel not a hammer. Save a good high mask or RJ from your obscene starting hand, wait as long as possible and try and drain high cards before you attempt to tangle. If they are wp6+ and your opponent knows what Tangle does they will blow that high card to stop you.

Tangle your own units where possible so you can relent and hopefully mitigate resources needed.

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