Can Cassandra use prompt on a model that Colette already prompted?

[Design Dragon]

For example,

Colette prompts ice golem, then next activation Cassandra prompts ice golem?

[Kadeton]

44 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The Action doesn't say a model may only be targeted by Prompt once per turn.

I cited your earlier post because it was relevant. Actions that may only be taken once per turn say "this Action may only be taken once per turn" and Prompt says "a model may only be targeted by this Action once per turn". You are trying to claim that in the first instance this Action refers to only that Action on that model but in the second instance it refers to every Action by the same name. How exactly is that taking anything at face value?

Because the rule on p.39 is this:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken "once per Turn." This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

Prompt does not note that the Action can only be taken once per Turn. This rule, therefore, does not apply to Prompt. Since there is no other rule exemption for Actions that cannot target a model more than once per Turn, why would they be allowed to target the same model more than once per Turn under any circumstances?

[Kadeton]

44 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Doesn't matter what you choose to call it. If the Action on the model contradicted the rule it would still overwrite it. Thus, we can deduce that the Actions aren't intended to contradict the rule. Why would the same wording in a very similar situation mean something completely different?

Because essentially, our whole discussion here boils down to the fact that you call Actions that can be used once per Turn and Actions that cannot target the same model more than once per Turn "very similar", and I call them "completely different". I don't think there's much further discussion to be had - we can agree to disagree? 

[santaclaws01]

45 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Based on that wording, I would have said the opposite. Note:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken “once per Turn.” This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

We can clearly see multiple copies of an Action printed on separate models' cards referred to as "the Action", singular. Even though they are different models, they are all taking "the (same) Action". While the "once per Turn" restriction takes effect on a per-model basis, all copies of that Action are still the same Action.

Prompt doesn't care whether the target has been affected by "this model", it only cares whether the target has been affected by "this Action". All copies of "this Action" are still "this Action", regardless of whether they come from "this model".

I would support @dancater's interpretation 2.

If a model could only be targeted by prompt once, why not word it the same way that Ever Changing Form is worded?  In regards to the rules you quoted, that's really the only way to concisely state what it needed to say, whereas we have much more instances of "this action" referring specifically to the model that is using the action, namely every per turn or per activation action. Whereas we have "this action may only target a model once per turn" existing with Airburst and I doubt that Sensei Yu and the Captain were designed around them both not being able to airburst the same model.

[Kadeton]

9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

If a model could only be targeted by prompt once, why not word it the same way that Ever Changing Form is worded?

Different designers express themselves differently. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Whereas we have "this action may only target a model once per turn" existing with Airburst and I doubt that Sensei Yu and the Captain were designed around them both not being able to airburst the same model.

Why do you doubt that? I would assume that the Captain and Cassandra wouldn't be allowed to Airburst the same model twice in a Turn as well.

15 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

In regards to the rules you quoted, that's really the only way to concisely state what it needed to say, whereas we have much more instances of "this action" referring specifically to the model that is using the action, namely every per turn or per activation action.

If different models were supposed to be able to get around the restriction, I would suggest "This model may not target the same model with this Action more than once per Turn."

"Once per Turn" stuff is inherently confusing, since (in at least some cases) it doesn't actually mean once per Turn. For me, the relevant distinction here is whether the "once per Turn" restriction is checked against the model taking the Action (in which case, a different model will not be restricted) or checked against the target (in which case, any model taking that Action against that target would be restricted). My own interpretation is that Prompt (and Airburst) are restricted based on what has happened to the target, not what the acting model has done, due to the way they are worded.

(I'm not saying I'm right, just that I think there's a stronger case for that interpretation.)

[Myyrä]

Different model means different Action, so yes.

[Design Dragon]

21 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Different model means different Action, so yes.

Sweet, thanks

[dancater]

Are we certain, I agree that different model is different action however the 'type' of action is the same, it is still a Prompt.

The action itself states "A model may only be targeted by this Action once per turn".  The key in support of Myyra is 'targeted by Action' wording and not an alternative targeted by Prompt, this would support their statement and that case (1) below is dominant.  But I still want to check my rules to be certain.

1. Reading one by Myyra is that the Colette Prompt is one action she can attempt it up to three times but must target different models.  Meanwhile (before or after Colette's turn) Cassandra can Understudy Prompt and, as it is a separate action by Cassandra, she can target a model which has been (or is later) targeted by Colette herself.  I will admit this is the persuasive interpretation but I do not have a rule book on hand to 100% confirm.  In this case it is more about the source of the action (Cassandra or Colette) than the target.
2. In the alternative.  The Prompt ability is an action.  Colette can Prompt up to three times and through Understudy Cassandra can perform an additional Prompt but no model can be affected by a Prompt action from either source more than once per turn, so up to four prompts on four separate targets.  The rules do have certain abilities, conditions, effects etc which can only be applied once regardless of source; so this interpretation has validity.  In this case it is more about the target than the source of the Prompt, it is the target which restricts the application.

I think it is necessary to reference the rules to clearly demonstrate (1) as dominant over the second interpretation.  I at least will try to do so when I have a rule book on hand and am not about to start my working day 

[Myyrä]

8 minutes ago, dancater said:

Are we certain, I agree that different model is different action however the 'type' of action is the same, it is still a Prompt.

The action itself states "A model may only be targeted by this Action once per turn".  The key in support of Myyra is 'targeted by Action' wording and not an alternative targeted by Prompt, this would support their statement and that case (1) below is dominant.  But I still want to check my rules to be certain.

1. Reading one by Myyra is that the Colette Prompt is one action she can attempt it up to three times but must target different models.  Meanwhile (before or after Colette's turn) Cassandra can Understudy Prompt and, as it is a separate action by Cassandra, she can target a model which has been (or is later) targeted by Colette herself.  I will admit this is the persuasive interpretation but I do not have a rule book on hand to 100% confirm.  In this case it is more about the source of the action (Cassandra or Colette) than the target.
2. In the alternative.  The Prompt ability is an action.  Colette can Prompt up to three times and through Understudy Cassandra can perform an additional Prompt but no model can be affected by a Prompt action from either source more than once per turn, so up to four prompts on four separate targets.  The rules do have certain abilities, conditions, effects etc which can only be applied once regardless of source; so this interpretation has validity.  In this case it is more about the target than the source of the Prompt, it is the target which restricts the application.

I think it is necessary to reference the rules to clearly demonstrate (1) as dominant over the second interpretation.  I at least will try to do so when I have a rule book on hand and am not about to start my working day 

The closest we can get with the rulebook is once per turn Actions.

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken “once per Turn.” This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

It would be quite a leap to assume that "this Action" would mean one thing one context and something completely different thing in another very similar context.

[Kadeton]

On 1/16/2017 at 4:26 AM, Myyrä said:

It would be quite a leap to assume that "this Action" would mean one thing one context and something completely different thing in another very similar context.

Based on that wording, I would have said the opposite. Note:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken “once per Turn.” This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

We can clearly see multiple copies of an Action printed on separate models' cards referred to as "the Action", singular. Even though they are different models, they are all taking "the (same) Action". While the "once per Turn" restriction takes effect on a per-model basis, all copies of that Action are still the same Action.

Prompt doesn't care whether the target has been affected by "this model", it only cares whether the target has been affected by "this Action". All copies of "this Action" are still "this Action", regardless of whether they come from "this model".

I would support @dancater's interpretation 2.

[Design Dragon]

Everyone seems to be bringing up interesting points here. I'm not sure which way to go.

1. Once per model per turn could be a restriction based on each individual caster similar to once per turn.

2. Once per model per turn could also mean that models are tracked independently of the caster and are more tracked based on whom the target was. I don't particularly like option two because what if two people had prompt and someone prompted your unit? Does that mean you can't prompt your unit on your turn since your opponent consumed your prompt opportunity? I don't know how this would ever happen considering prompt only targets friendlies, but it seems strange if it ever came up. hmmmm

At the same time, prompting the same unit twice though may be too strong even if the action is done by a different unit.

[Ampers&nd]

opponents perdita obeys Cassandra, cassandra understudy prompt, then prompts howard- under option b the Colette player can no longer prompt howard- tactically useful but is it rai/raw. I've been playing it as (2) but I can see argument for (1) also.

[solkan]

13 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Based on that wording, I would have said the opposite. Note:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken “once per Turn.” This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

We can clearly see multiple copies of an Action printed on separate models' cards referred to as "the Action", singular. Even though they are different models, they are all taking "the (same) Action". While the "once per Turn" restriction takes effect on a per-model basis, all copies of that Action are still the same Action.

Prompt doesn't care whether the target has been affected by "this model", it only cares whether the target has been affected by "this Action". All copies of "this Action" are still "this Action", regardless of whether they come from "this model".

I would support @dancater's interpretation 2.

Both players decide to play Colette because she's awesome, and then start using Prompt on models.

So tell both the Colette players that their actions are the same, and they get to play Prompt-denial in spite of the FAQ.

 

[MunkyMuddFace]

4 hours ago, Ampers&nd said:

opponents perdita obeys Cassandra, cassandra understudy prompt, then prompts howard- under option b the Colette player can no longer prompt howard- tactically useful but is it rai/raw. I've been playing it as (2) but I can see argument for (1) also.

 

21 minutes ago, solkan said:

Both players decide to play Colette because she's awesome, and then start using Prompt on models.

So tell both the Colette players that their actions are the same, and they get to play Prompt-denial in spite of the FAQ.

 

Prompt is a Tactical Action and can only target friendly models. In the case of the Dita obeying Cassandra, Cassandra is friendly for that action and cannot target Hank.

[Ampers&nd]

50 minutes ago, MunkyMuddFace said:

 

Prompt is a Tactical Action and can only target friendly models. In the case of the Dita obeying Cassandra, Cassandra is friendly for that action and cannot target Hank.

obey doesn't change the fact Cassandra is friendly to both hank and Colette, so your logic isn't quite right here?

[Myyrä]

16 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Based on that wording, I would have said the opposite. Note:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken “once per Turn.” This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

We can clearly see multiple copies of an Action printed on separate models' cards referred to as "the Action", singular. Even though they are different models, they are all taking "the (same) Action". While the "once per Turn" restriction takes effect on a per-model basis, all copies of that Action are still the same Action.

Prompt doesn't care whether the target has been affected by "this model", it only cares whether the target has been affected by "this Action". All copies of "this Action" are still "this Action", regardless of whether they come from "this model".

I would support @dancater's interpretation 2.

Practically the actions that can only be taken once per turn or once per action, say that "this Action may only be taken once per turn".

[Kadeton]

16 hours ago, Ampers&nd said:

opponents perdita obeys Cassandra, cassandra understudy prompt, then prompts howard- under option b the Colette player can no longer prompt howard- tactically useful but is it rai/raw. I've been playing it as (2) but I can see argument for (1) also.

Is it tactically useful very often? Perdita's player doesn't get to control the action that Howard takes, Howard's player does. All you're really doing is forcing him to take his extra action at a potentially inconvenient time. But yes, I would say that matches the spirit of the rule - Howard can only ever be Prompted once per Turn. If you can turn that into a tactical advantage, that's good play.

9 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Practically the actions that can only be taken once per turn or once per action, say that "this Action may only be taken once per turn".

Indeed. Prompt doesn't say that, and it can be taken as many times per Turn as the caster has AP. Instead, it says "A model may only be targeted by this Action once per Turn," which is a different situation - FAQs should never be extrapolated to cover rules other than those intended. I think you could well be proven correct in the future, but right now in the absence of an FAQ I would take the rule at face value: a model may only be targeted by Prompt once per Turn.

[Myyrä]

21 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Indeed. Prompt doesn't say that, and it can be taken as many times per Turn as the caster has AP. Instead, it says "A model may only be targeted by this Action once per Turn," which is a different situation - FAQs should never be extrapolated to cover rules other than those intended. I think you could well be proven correct in the future, but right now in the absence of an FAQ I would take the rule at face value: a model may only be targeted by Prompt once per Turn.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. The Action doesn't say a model may only be targeted by Prompt once per turn.

I cited your earlier post because it was relevant. Actions that may only be taken once per turn say "this Action may only be taken once per turn" and Prompt says "a model may only be targeted by this Action once per turn". You are trying to claim that in the first instance this Action refers to only that Action on that model but in the second instance it refers to every Action by the same name. How exactly is that taking anything at face value?

[Myyrä]

42 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Because the rule on p.39 is this:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken "once per Turn." This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

Prompt does not note that the Action can only be taken once per Turn. This rule, therefore, does not apply to Prompt. Since there is no other rule exemption for Actions that cannot target a model more than once per Turn, why would they be allowed to target the same model more than once per Turn under any circumstances?

That isn't an exemption, it's an explanation.

[Kadeton]

12 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

That isn't an exemption, it's an explanation.

"Once Per Turn Actions" is a game rule, just like the "Placing Scheme Markers" and "Immunity" rules in callout boxes on the same page. It's not an explanation.

[Myyrä]

2 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

"Once Per Turn Actions" is a game rule, just like the "Placing Scheme Markers" and "Immunity" rules on the same page. It's not an explanation.

Doesn't matter what you choose to call it. If the Action on the model contradicted the rule it would still overwrite it. Thus, we can deduce that the Actions aren't intended to contradict the rule. Why would the same wording in a very similar situation mean something completely different?

[Myyrä]

Just now, Kadeton said:

I don't think there's much further discussion to be had - we can agree to disagree? 

Let's do that.

[dancater]

Well that was a intense discussion.

In the end I will be playing that Cassandra cannot target a model which has already been prompted by Colette (or vice versa) until officialdom states otherwise in the FAQ.

1. On reflection this seems to more clearly correspond with the precise wording on the new card concerning prompt, that  "A model may only be targeted by this Action once per turn" 
2. There has been no rule quoted which clearly invalidates this interpretation
3. This reading further restrains the Showgirls (slightly) which was clearly the rules change intent and also means that if I am wrong it is to my disadvantage (if any) and not my opponents
4. Ultimately it means Cassandra is not an auto-include in order to maximise prompt crutch for the old Colette max prompt play style but she retains excellent advantages providing an additional prompt which has a different source (and potentially LOS and range) and activation order, which honestly is powerful enough

Utmost respect to everyone's opinions and contributions.  Hopefully a FAQ sorts this out quickly and simply in the not to distant future, it is a fairly simple y/n - a/b type question after all. 

[Ergonomic Cat]

On 1/16/2017 at 9:34 PM, Kadeton said:

Based on that wording, I would have said the opposite. Note:

"Some Actions note that they can only be taken “once per Turn.” This only refers to the individual model. Although the model may only take the Action once per Turn, other models may still take the Action."

We can clearly see multiple copies of an Action printed on separate models' cards referred to as "the Action", singular. Even though they are different models, they are all taking "the (same) Action". While the "once per Turn" restriction takes effect on a per-model basis, all copies of that Action are still the same Action.

Prompt doesn't care whether the target has been affected by "this model", it only cares whether the target has been affected by "this Action". All copies of "this Action" are still "this Action", regardless of whether they come from "this model".

I would support @dancater's interpretation 2.

While I adore Wyrd and the game they made, I think you're over-estimating the precision they use in their wording.  There are several examples of places where different wording is used to indicate the same thing happening, and the wording isn't consistent.  In some games, you can do this kind of grammatical deconstruction.  In Malifaux, consistent templating is....let's call it not the highest priority.