Misaki Errata and the Malifaux Child

[BigHammer]

Hi all,

Unsure on exactly how this would work out:

Misaki's errata gave her Downburst action a new trigger that allows her to take a Thunder action against the target of the downburst, ignoring range.

If the Malifaux child were to use Just Like You to copy Downburst, and was able to get the 11  required to trigger this Thunder attack, would it be allowed to take it?

Additionally, if it can, would the Thunder action suffer the  damage flip that Just Like You causes?

Cheers

[solkan]

1 hour ago, BigHammer said:

Hi all,

Unsure on exactly how this would work out:

Misaki's errata gave her Downburst action a new trigger that allows her to take a Thunder action against the target of the downburst, ignoring range.

If the Malifaux child were to use Just Like You to copy Downburst, and was able to get the 11  required to trigger this Thunder attack, would it be allowed to take it?

Additionally, if it can, would the Thunder action suffer the  damage flip that Just Like You causes?

Cheers

If the Malifaux Child casts a Ca Action with triggers, it can declare those triggers according to the usual requirements.

The Malifaux Child gets to take the Thunder Action but the words "This Action receives a and any resulting damage flips receive a " don't apply to the Thunder Action.  Because the damage flips for the Thunder Action belong to the Thunder Action, not the Downburst Action.

In other words, "resulting damage flips" isn't contagious.  Otherwise every subsequent damage flip for the rest of the game could be argued to be a result of every chronologically prior action. 

[Myyrä]

7 hours ago, solkan said:

If the Malifaux Child casts a Ca Action with triggers, it can declare those triggers according to the usual requirements.

The Malifaux Child gets to take the Thunder Action but the words "This Action receives a and any resulting damage flips receive a " don't apply to the Thunder Action.  Because the damage flips for the Thunder Action belong to the Thunder Action, not the Downburst Action.

In other words, "resulting damage flips" isn't contagious.  Otherwise every subsequent damage flip for the rest of the game could be argued to be a result of every chronologically prior action. 

I disagree. Malifaux Child doesn't get to take Thunder Action, because he doesn't know what Thunder Action even is. While it hasn't been explicitly spelled out in the rules, no is usually considered stronger than yes. Misaki couldn't take the Thunder Action either if she wasn't allowed to take Ml Actions for some reason.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

I disagree. Malifaux Child doesn't get to take Thunder Action, because he doesn't know what Thunder Action even is. While it hasn't been explicitly spelled out in the rules, no is usually considered stronger than yes. Misaki couldn't take the Thunder Action either if she wasn't allowed to take Ml Actions for some reason.

I don't follow, why wouldn't the Malifaux Child be able to take Ml actions?

[Myyrä]

Just now, Bengt said:

I don't follow, why wouldn't the Malifaux Child be able to take Ml actions?

He can take Ml actions, but he doesn't have an action called Thunder, and thus can't take it.

[Bengt]

5 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

He can take Ml actions, but he doesn't have an action called Thunder, and thus can't take it.

So what is your stance on triggers that repeat the same Action (e.g. Kaeris' Flaming Halo)? Just Like You doesn't give any indication of how long the Malifaux Child knows the Action, just that he can take it, but it's perhaps just the one time? I know many people use Malifaux Child to double cast Flaming Halo on friendly models (I've done it myself) but that doesn't mean it's correct. 

[Myyrä]

5 minutes ago, Bengt said:

So what is your stance on triggers that repeat the same Action (e.g. Kaeris' Flaming Halo)? Just Like You doesn't give any indication of how long the Malifaux Child knows the Action, just that he can take it, but it's perhaps just the one time? I know many people use Malifaux Child to double cast Flaming Halo on friendly models (I've done it myself) but that doesn't mean it's correct. 

I'd say it's somewhat different because it refers to "this action". (Doesn't it?)

[Bengt]

2 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

I'd say it's somewhat different because it refers to "this action". (Doesn't it?)

It does. I don't agree that it makes a difference though. It feels kind of arbitrary to me to allow one but not the other depending on how the action is referred to, it's not like there is any question of which action we are talking about. It's quite common for different phrases to be used for the same thing in Malifaux.

[Myyrä]

7 minutes ago, Bengt said:

It does. I don't agree that it makes a difference though. It feels kind of arbitrary to me to allow one but not the other depending on how the action is referred to, it's not like there is any question of which action we are talking about. It's quite common for different phrases to be used for the same thing in Malifaux.

If there isn't a difference, then Malifaux Child won't be able to use any triggers that allow taking specific actions. Models are restricted to the actions they have on their cards. Otherwise any ability or action that allowed taking for example (1) Action could be used to take any action in the game or even one that the player made up on the spot.

[Adran]

I agree with Myyra, The Malifaux child can only take actions he has. He can try and take a "thunder" action, but He doesn't have a thunder action, and doean't have a value for the Ml stat of the thunder action to use. If he did have an action called "thunder" then he could take it. 

last time this was discussed it was trying to get the Child to take Mei fengs jackhammer kick. 

The duel flaming halo is difficult, I think that its possible to view the child as having the action on his card until he completes the action, but that would mean that the triggered flaming halo doesn't get the positive flip. 

[Bengt]

Mei Feng's Railwalker is an interesting data point, it has a trigger that lets you take another Railwalker by name, not "this Action".

I can totally see not allowing the Malifaux Child any follow up actions from triggers, I'm only sceptical to allowing some and not others without more explicit distinctions than those of the actions discussed so far.

This conundrum also applies to Wendigo, who can use Magical Extension to cast December's Curse with its Overpower trigger.

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Just Like You (and Magical Extension) has kind of sloppy language, in the first sentence it uses "This Action" to refer to Just Like You, but in the following sentences it uses "This Action" to refer to the borrowed Action.

[BigHammer]

@Aaron one for the next FAQ?