Help with lilith

[Killersox]

Hey guy so just as the title says I need help with Lilith. I have everything for then thunders except yan lo. Last night I played her and was just smoked. He had the red joker twice in hand and was able to cheat 12 damage to shen long twice over the course of the game even after I spent an entire turn healing him back up. The only reason I lived was because misdirect to the shadow emmisary out of obligation. Do that or die turn 2. In 3 Lilith AP shenlong and the emmisarry where on hard to kill. Needless to say I was surprised.

So ultimately what do I do when she shows up? What can I bring that works best? if it helps his list was something like this (I don't know what upgrades off hand and sorry about the spelling)

lilith 

nikema

mature nephalem

2 young nephalem

2 tots

primordial Magic

please help guys. Not sure what to do with her at all. I am open to any suggestions. Along with any masters. I prefer Shen long, Mei fang, or asami but I like them all.

 

[BigHammer]

Shenlong is a strong answer to her because he can make her attacks miss easily; instead of taking a hit for 3/4/6 damage from her sword (most Lilith players will use her sword minimally, in favour of her control abilities, btw), stay in High River Style with a point of burning on and take 1-3 wounds after all the cheating is done to make her miss. It's a lot easier to heal 1-3 wounds than 3-9. The conditions she hands out are also very easy for a Shenlong crew to deal with; you can have Shenlong, Sensei Yu, the Emissary or low river monks around to remove them with minimal effort if you need to.

Nekima is a strong, fast beater, but Shenlong has a number of tools available to him (as do the Thunders in general) to deal with her:

A Katanaka Sniper can put early pressure on her from a long way away, and Shenlong's can take focussed shots twice with some help from his Peasants;

The Lone Swordsman can, with some pushes and Fast from Shenlong, as well as Recalled Training, threaten to kill Nekima from a long way away, and Yasunori is even more effective at this, albeit for four stones more.

 

That said, Mei is interesting against Lilith; while she might struggle to win a fist fight, her crew can largely ignore the Illusionary Forests with Hard Worker, and Vent Steam means that Lilith has to come close to do any work at all. Vapourmancy gives her a Ca7 attack value to hit Lilith more reliably, too.

 

If her melee damage is what worries you most, I'd say just practise some more and figure out how to play around that; she can dish out a beat-down, but the Thunders have her licked for damage output and survivability, and have enough pushes and condition removal available to them to make her real threats - her Ca attacks that root or reposition models - much less dangerous.

 

Also, you say that you were on HtK with Shenlong twice; imagine the Lilith player's frustration that she had to kill your master three times over

[Killersox]

Thanks for the reply. I never thought about just making them miss with the burning tricks. lol Shen long is my main master and I still forget things. I didn't know that most people don't fight with her. I have only ever seen the one person play her and he fights so that's what I have to deal with.

I also struggle with them growing into monsters but I suppose everyone does. Thanks again.

[scarlett fever]

Last game versus Lilith Ohagaru took out Nekima before she did anything. Fast Ohagaru with Recalled Training is a beautiful thing.

Having said that Lilith can be a hell of a tough Master to face. The main thing I find is being wary of relying on too much synergy in a list versus her. Most Lilith players will keep that high card to whisk away a piece of your puzzle and unless you're playing Shenlong's milk-the-monk she will have card dominance over you. Anything you bring WP5 or under, if it's important to your plans expect it to be removed.

Against a list like the above (not that you always know what they'll bring) I agree with Bighammer. Any of Ohagaru, Yasanouri, Lone Swordsman backed by Shenlong. Any of these you should be able to get the jump over her hitters and with good planning pull back and strike again.

Obviously Lilith's primary weakness is WP. A Mei Komainu list could work, ball up and spam. Whilst I haven't tried Mei against her I have caused a Lilith player a heap of trouble with a Komainu in her face. Also Yin can be fairly rough for her with her - to Ca actions.

[Twg]

As a Lilith player I rarely use her to attack and many Lilith players don't take the sword upgrade at all. Lilith's main weakness as stated is her will power so that's what you need to try to exploit. She is a tricksy proposition to take down though as she has many ways to play. I also think your opponent got very lucky with the red jokers.  

[Azkral]

The Brewmaster can put a brawler Lilith to drink all the game. 

 

[OneLittleThunder]

Lots of good suggestions here. One other thing to consider; if you need a big beater and are willing to pay the Mercenary tax, a Strongarm Suit is pretty strong against a Lilith/Nephilim crew. 

It ignores Black Blood, can target Wp, can charge out of combat, and has lots of useful options with its triggers and (0) action. 

[Rurouni Benshin]

Yin is a good solution to playing against her.  It's ironic that you mention not owning Yan Lo yet, because the she would work very well with his crew.  Fortunately, you don't need Yan Lo's box crew to use her effectively. 

Her (0) action that targets WP would be very effective against Lilyth, and if you manage to get Yin close enough to her (so that she can't be ignored), your opponent would be forced to spend more AP (and possibly soulstones) to deal with her effectively.  In one game, I had Lilyth hampered for nearly 2 turns just from Yin alone, before she managed to kill her.  At that point though, he had spent 2 soulstones, and 2 entire activations just to kill Yin, draining his hand to nothing.  The rest of my crew was then able to gang up on her, and deal with her effectively.

That being said, Lilyth's biggest weakness is her WP.  Bringing models that could target her WP would be the way to go against her.  Other people mentioned Shenlong (who I'd agree with), but it really comes down to anyone who can hit with a minimum of Ml 7 against her Df 7. 

[Yvarre]

Somehow I most often end up playing Lynch against Lilith, and I typically kill her turn 2 sometimes 3 or even 1 by getting her to overextend too close to my crew.  Though her board control is really powerful, I've found that many players I've played have taken the bait of a seemingly errantly advanced model like Huggy or even Ototo pushed up the board and charge in to try to kill them with a good hand.  With Rising Sun on Lynch, I've even let Huggy get buried to give LoS to the rest of my crew; I've also killed her off of a Recalled Training activation with Huggy when Lynch has had Endless Darkness.  Ototo simply doesn't die and hits back at an Ml 8 with a built in crit and plus to damage.  On a Recalled Training flurry, I've killed Lilith a few times on a single activation of Ototo.  Once she's up and not shrouded completely by an illusory forest, I can lure her in more with a Beckoner if need be, and Lynch can also kill her in a single activation.  Her main defensive strength is concealment and guerrilla tactics, but once isolated she can fold pretty quickly with moderate concentration of force.  As her control of the board can be damn good, it's worth the AP to take her down early. In fact, Lilith is my favorite master to take Assassinate/Neutralize the Leader/Eliminate the Leadership against.

Nekima, I likewise get to come near my crew sometimes with a good bluff of not realizing she can get to my advanced models, and then she drops pretty easily.  The Mature Nephilim and the rest of the crew are a similar deal.  Neverborn can hit hard but often fold like paper under pressure, and with our superior movement tricks and healing I feel that they may be the faction that gives Ten Thunders the least trouble.