Seryjniak Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Ok so the new GG are out. We had some time to look them up and now we can discuss what masters gained and loosed based on each strategy and scheme pool. So what do you think ? Did Dreamer got cuddled ? Did Titania get buffed ? State your opinions here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seryjniak Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 A lot of views not a lot of content. So I will start. First with the strategies: [RAMS] Extraction - this one is old and tested. Best crews are simply the ones that can easily control the bubble. This strategy is possible for 2 players so it would be also possible to clog the middle but this is not the neverborn way. We should always try to move the marker to our advantage and deny opposition by killing models inside. Crews that kill in a bubble will provide more then crews that can only control it (we don't have as many cheep and easy pushes). For this strategy I would consider 2 masters: Pandora and Collodi. Both crews are good at killing and strong in a bubble while also have some control elements over field in general. [MASKS] Interference - this is too old time favorite. It can also be scored by 2 players and involves totally different attitude then previous one. There will be 4 strategically important quoter of the table that you need to control 3 to get maximum benefit (you a point and opponent none). In case of hard hitting somewhat fragile neverborns there are 2 very good candidates: Dreamer and Lynch. Dreamer can summon more minions that easily claim quoter and can sit there while stronger elements try to remove opponents out of position (towards 6" of the board) while lynch has nice synergy with luring models and can hit very very hard and lessen the possibility of opponent interfering with scoring (last activation with woke up with a hand comes to mind) any thoughts ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarnabyBones Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Titania lost Detonate the Charges and got Hidden Trap instead, which is a downgrade. That being said, huge bonus in that Titania got a suited scheme that she's perfect for "Dig Their Graves". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Didn't Dreamer get better since they changed neutralize the leader to not score on buries and remove hunting party so that enemies can't claim easy points on weak summons. Summoning should be right back in style for every pool now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutter Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 12 hours ago, Seryjniak said: For this strategy I would consider 2 masters: Pandora and Collodi. Both crews are good at killing and strong in a bubble while also have some control elements over field in general. Lynch loves himself a good scrum in the middle, too. Would definitely add him to any 'bubble schemes'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutter Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Double post ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seryjniak Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 Thanks everyone for great input - lets try to end the strategy section then [TOMES] - Headhunter - this is one strategy that can be tricky but is generally a favorable for us. It makes harder for ranged crews to score points so neverborn can do their thing. Now my pick is strange in this slot and I'll take time to support it. It's ... Titania. The main thing in this strategy is not only killing but moving and interacting. Titania can place enemy models and pop out markers that make certain of your models push. With fly she can change position. The main idea would be to pull enemy beater towards her and go after shame runners with some fast stuff of our own. I think it needs more testing but her and Lilith seam like 2 best neverborn models for this particular strategy. [CROWS] Guard the Stash - For this my main pick would be Lilith - very savvy los blocking capabilities, good ability to kill of models herself and no LOS needed to pluck enemies from one of two objectives and substitute them with models of your own. Lilith also is good fit with taking another beater and this is really good in this strategy. [JOKERS] Collect The Bounty - This is best for crews that can kill and don't do it all at once. I think Lynch is super good at this - if you are using his upgrade ability you can count the points and in last activation go for the kill on the model that gives you a point OR takes it away from enemy. Now that I think of it after schemes I will do some kind of exel file with ranks for each described master that helps you to pick master for exact set of schemes and strategies. Declaimer - this are my views only and I don't play much Collodi and Zorida so they are not prominent here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goth Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I'll be taking Titania for: 5. Hidden Trap 7. Set Up 8. Search the Ruins 10. Tail 'Em as long as Hunting Party and Collect the Bounty aren't in effect, it's safe for Collodi to creep onto the board but I might field Titania instead, in many instances this season, to try 10 or 12 activation lists containing corrupted hounds and trying to get maximum value out of a performer and multiple wicked dolls (they can place in base with an enemy 8" away, much like sorrows). Crows. Dig Their Graves Suited Titania cakewalk. "The sanctity of this place has been fouled." Masks. Accusation! as mentioned above, I'd like to try this with wicked dolls, sorrows and iggy and lelitu, corrupted hounds, and models with large engagement ranges like Waldgeist and McTavish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yool1981 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 I had the opportunity to test 2 new schemes : Claim Jump and Tail' em. The new convict labour is kind of similar to the previous one (easier than previously for NB I think). Overall it is the change I welcome although it is not a major one. For Tail' em, it may be because the scheme is new but I think it is a bit too easy to score. As you lose the condition if you are not in LOS at the end of your activation, you cannot use any out of activation shenanigan to get your henchman or master out of sight. It is easy for your opponent to give you the spotted condition after your activation for just 1 AP and get a free point for just the AP of a minion. I think putting the spotted condition on someone who has already activation should cost 2 AP and not 1. Finally, Frame for murder is suited. I hate this scheme. So this is not a change I welcome. It is something that does not require too much player skill to score imho. I would have welcome the scheme if the sucker could only be a minion but when it is an enforcer or henchman, you kind of have to deal with it with a high value model and Paralyze is not an option. but maybe this is Wyrd pushing us towards Zoraida and Pandora ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marke83 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 10 minutes ago, yool1981 said: Finally, Frame for murder is suited. I hate this scheme. So this is not a change I welcome. It is something that does not require too much player skill to score imho. I have to disagree Frame for Murder is a very good scheme because it creates mind-games. It may not require skill to score against average opponents, but against a good one (I consider good opponents everyone I play against cause I'm a total noob) it is sometimes hard not to make it obvious. Also, it offers an interesting challenge from the other side of the table to avoid killing the model you suspect is the framed. It may seem like an easy scheme on the surface, but at what point you can sac your henchman/master to score max wp and not handicap yourself too much? How about if opponent sees that miles away and you're doing awkward positioning just trying to score 3wp, but the result is your model is tied/chain paralyzed for the whole game doing nothing and your down ~10ss and 3wp? If you play it safe, you're down 2-3wp. Furthermore, this is again pretty basic I suppose (?), but if FFM is in the pool, then you can also fake it and possibly get away with obnoxious stuff, whilst not actually having picked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 5 hours ago, yool1981 said: I had the opportunity to test 2 new schemes : Claim Jump and Tail' em. The new convict labour is kind of similar to the previous one (easier than previously for NB I think). Overall it is the change I welcome although it is not a major one. For Tail' em, it may be because the scheme is new but I think it is a bit too easy to score. As you lose the condition if you are not in LOS at the end of your activation, you cannot use any out of activation shenanigan to get your henchman or master out of sight. It is easy for your opponent to give you the spotted condition after your activation for just 1 AP and get a free point for just the AP of a minion. I think putting the spotted condition on someone who has already activation should cost 2 AP and not 1. Finally, Frame for murder is suited. I hate this scheme. So this is not a change I welcome. It is something that does not require too much player skill to score imho. I would have welcome the scheme if the sucker could only be a minion but when it is an enforcer or henchman, you kind of have to deal with it with a high value model and Paralyze is not an option. but maybe this is Wyrd pushing us towards Zoraida and Pandora ? Tail 'em requires the enemy to be close to your minions so if they target them you can't score it at all. I'd say that's quite risky. Both Lucius and Lilith can easily swap their position to get away if they become tailed. Dreamer could summon something to block LoS. Any model could be lured away before it activates to just need a single walk to get away or you can run in with something to block LoS to most of the enemy crew before you activate the tailed model and kill the offending minion. As long as your master isn'tin the middle of their crew it shouldn't be too hard to get away from it. I think it is just designed to make you activate your master and henchmen late and be careful with how you play them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yool1981 Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 6 hours ago, marke83 said: I have to disagree Frame for Murder is a very good scheme because it creates mind-games. I know. Frame for Murder is one of the highly debated schemes. So like it some hate it. I am in the "I hate it" camp. 1 hour ago, Ludvig said: Tail 'em requires the enemy to be close to your minions so if they target them you can't score it at all. You mean close to our henchmen and masters or did I misunderstood. 1 hour ago, Ludvig said: Both Lucius and Lilith can easily swap their position to get away if they become tailed. Dreamer could summon something to block LoS. Any model could be lured away before it activates to just need a single walk to get away or you can run in with something to block LoS to most of the enemy crew before you activate the tailed model and kill the offending minion. As long as your master isn'tin the middle of their crew it shouldn't be too hard to get away from it. I think it is just designed to make you activate your master and henchmen late and be careful with how you play them. That's what I thought before playing the Scheme. After playing against it (with Lilith), I begin to think it is not so easy to avoid being spotted. The condition ends at the end of your activation so if you are out activated, you are usually in trouble. Even if you have a favourable activation control, sometimes your masters or henchmen just have to activate early. In that condition, you have just lost 1 VP for 1 Minion's AP that just needs to be 6" from your master or henchman. This is imho too simple, especially if the Tail'em player has expendable minions (in that case it is 0 risk and and high reward). But I'll continue to test the new schemes and maybe I will see the light and think Tail'em is actually well designed. The idea behind this scheme is fun though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybarite Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Ludvig means the enemy needs to be close to our minions for us to tail the enemy. Collodi is pretty happy that hunting party is gone. I've found that lures and Collodi stitched death bubble makes for some rather easy Dig their graves. Out activating with lots of minions really helps with Claim Jump as well. It's not very hard. Tail 'em can feel easy, but if you're not minion spamming it can be risky, if the enemy starts focusing on your minions. I'd say you want three minions at minimum for this scheme to feel comfortable. Depends on what minions as well of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Yeah, I got mixed up in who was who Can't Lilith just (0) to have markers that block LoS. I know that removes them from a potentially good spot but she should be able to block most LoS with that. Most minions should have to work a little to get that close to your master (and you should pick henchmen like McTavish who can sit in your deployment over the likes of Nekima if that scheme comes up). Tots and guild hounds seem to me like the only ones who can do it reliably. I think it is an interesting scheme that forces different play than the usual "cram master + Nekima down throat" and I think it buffs masters like Collodi and Lucius. It might end up buffing boring backline summoners a bit too much though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yool1981 Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 13 hours ago, Sybarite said: Tail 'em can feel easy, but if you're not minion spamming it can be risky, if the enemy starts focusing on your minions. I'd say you want three minions at minimum for this scheme to feel comfortable. Depends on what minions as well of course. I have a feeling Silurids & Gupps will be very handy. They can jump above the terrain that initially denied LOS, then walk and do the interact on an already activated henchman or even master. This is 7+5+6=18" of scoring threat, some of it unhindered by terrain. 10 hours ago, Ludvig said: Yeah, I got mixed up in who was who Can't Lilith just (0) to have markers that block LoS. I know that removes them from a potentially good spot but she should be able to block most LoS with that. You put down the markers but they can walk and interact on your already activated henchman or master (so they can go around or through the forest in fact). If it had been a (2) interact on something already activated, it wouldn't be so easy as the minion wouldn't be able to walk and interact. The other way to balance it would be to remove the condition as soon as LOS is denied (not at the end of activation). It would allow you to push/hide things during your turn to remove the condition before the VP is scored. But anyway I need more tests on this scheme, I was just wondering if anyone had the same feeling when they played with/against this scheme. 10 hours ago, Ludvig said: you should pick henchmen like McTavish who can sit in your deployment over the likes of Nekima if that scheme comes up Nekima indeed seems to be a liability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Fair points. I haven't actually tried it yet but as a dual neverborn/guild player I think this scheme will be a lot more fun when I've declared neverborn than guild 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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