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The Lucius experience

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Hello again! 

As thursday is our gaming-night-day I've managed to get 2 more games in. A draw against Jack and an overwhelming victory against New Tara.

With Jack I wanted to test my original list a third time, but with a minor tweak, changing the conflux:

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lucius + 4 Pool (I thing 5 would be the sweet spot but the budget is super tight)
 - Secret Assets (2)
 - Surprisingly Loyal (1)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
The Scribe (2)
Mysterious Emissary (10)
 - Mysterious Conflux (0)
Mr. Graves (8)
The Illuminated (7)
The Illuminated (7)
Guild Austringer (6)
Guild Lawyer (6)

I guess it would have worked but my fate deck said 'naaaaaaah' and made fun of me with things as 13-RJ-BJ on :-fate:-fate dmg flip; flipping the RJ for Illuminateds zero action followed by BJ for healing; Austringer failing on killing Lady Ligera with 4 or 5 attacks and so on. I stoned 4 times for cards and got only crows and tomes on hand every tims, so I couldn't summon any changelings (I tried 6-7 times anyway but didn't flipped any masks either :/). Highlight was as Lucius was killed from jack while within scribes +1def and through i discarded 3 times (cards as high as 9 and 10...) to get jack on negatives only to be hit all 3 times anyway (2 times so high I couldn't even cheat out of it)... I would have won through scemes on turn 5 but of course there comes a sixth one and i only manage a draw. So Lessons learned: Graves is nice but I don't really need his push (Lucius does that anyway and better) and I don't need his muscle as the Minions usually get the job done. I got way more use out of the general Conflux as from Tyranny Conflux. Lucius don't needs to fly, but the additional card draw is very welcome and I usually spend 3-4 stones too draw cards anyway, so the math checks out. I don't think he needs other upgrades for this spot as well. While I like Austringer and Lawyer I feel both of them may be a little bit to much support. But if I take only one, he essential becomes a 7ss minion and 7ss is a hard fought category. I guess I will drop Mr Graves for 2 Changelings. Getting me more activations and take some pressure from the emissary. One Group with Lucius and Illuminated will go for some beating while Emissary, Changelings and Austringer harass the other flank and doing scemes on the way.

 

The second game against Tara; i tried Fae and Nekima:

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lucius + 4 Pool
 - Secret Assets (2)
 - Surprisingly Loyal (1)
The Scribe (2)
Nekima (13)
 - A Thousand Faces (1)
Doppleganger (7)
The Claw (7)
The Thorn (7)
Guild Lawyer (6)
Changeling (4)

Nekima won me this game almost alone. Turn 1 Thorn managed to drag a void wretch to her and killed it while scattering some sceme markers, thus unburying the nothing beast which in turn snacked the fae. But Nekima was ready, charged in and disposed the new henchcreature. Good Flips, bad prevention and blackblood helped a lot. Afterwards she healed full thanks to malifaux provides. Only problem: Nothing Beast was frame for murder target and my own set up target... hrgl -3 vp for me and +3 for my opponent. Turn two I get ini and Nekima charged and killed aionus, healing full again, thanks to fae sceme marker. Afterwards it was just cleaning up. Lucius didn't get to do much besides presenting elite training for a few duels. But  using commanding presence to throw Nekima forward was worth it. In Combination with Doppelganger this worked extremely well. I really liked the fae here as they essential lure enemys in and drop sceme markers for Nekima. I guess I will abuse this combination with other crews as well. The Fae sceme markers were also nice for Lucius Sniper. I am not completly happy with this variant as many list elements just work around Nekima and if she can't shine it's an uphill battle for the rest. I will try this again, dropping the lawyer and scribe for another Changeling and malifaux child.

 

 

 

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On 1/6/2017 at 5:29 AM, Torsul said:

I guess it would have worked but my fate deck said 'naaaaaaah' and made fun of me...So Lessons learned: Graves is nice but I don't really need his push (Lucius does that anyway and better) and I don't need his muscle as the Minions usually get the job done. I got way more use out of the general Conflux as from Tyranny Conflux...While I like Austringer and Lawyer I feel both of them may be a little bit to much support. But if I take only one, he essential becomes a 7ss minion and 7ss is a hard fought category. I guess I will drop Mr Graves for 2 Changelings. Getting me more activations and take some pressure from the emissary. One Group with Lucius and Illuminated will go for some beating while Emissary, Changelings and Austringer harass the other flank and doing scemes on the way.

That's some terrible luck. I would argue that Mr. Grave's push is an extra, I generally only use his push to help bring along a model that isn't in my Lucius retinue on the first turn, maybe the second, and those times things need moving that aren't on my team. Now, not needing him because you have enough beaters on your team is a different story entirely, Illuminated are great beaters and if that's where you want to spend Lucius' AP and the Mysterious Conflux buff, Happy Murdermas!  Now that the defense trigger on Surprisingly Loyal doesn't suck, I wouldn't worry too much about the math of Personal Retinue if you have enough fodder around (i.e. Changelings, or Lawyers in a pinch), stone a ram if you have to.  

Quote

Nekima won me this game almost alone. Turn 1 Thorn managed to drag a void wretch to her and killed it while scattering some sceme markers, thus unburying the nothing beast which in turn snacked the fae. But Nekima was ready, charged in and disposed the new henchcreature. Good Flips, bad prevention and blackblood helped a lot. Afterwards she healed full thanks to malifaux provides. Only problem: Nothing Beast was frame for murder target and my own set up target... hrgl -3 vp for me and +3 for my opponent. Turn two I get ini and Nekima charged and killed aionus, healing full again, thanks to fae sceme marker. Afterwards it was just cleaning up. Lucius didn't get to do much besides presenting elite training for a few duels. But  using commanding presence to throw Nekima forward was worth it. In Combination with Doppelganger this worked extremely well. I really liked the fae here as they essential lure enemys in and drop sceme markers for Nekima. I guess I will abuse this combination with other crews as well. The Fae sceme markers were also nice for Lucius Sniper. I am not completly happy with this variant as many list elements just work around Nekima and if she can't shine it's an uphill battle for the rest. I will try this again, dropping the lawyer and scribe for another Changeling and malifaux child.

It's nice to read about the Fae in action with Lucius, and I'm certainly looking forward to accomplishing similar shenanigans once their box is available. With the Doppleganger and Malifaux Child Issue Commanding Illuminated, you can probably drop Nekima. Now, I will go wash my hands for typing the previous sentence. 

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7 hours ago, Masquer said:

It's nice to read about the Fae in action with Lucius, and I'm certainly looking forward to accomplishing similar shenanigans once their box is available. With the Doppleganger and Malifaux Child Issue Commanding Illuminated, you can probably drop Nekima. Now, I will go wash my hands for typing the previous sentence. 

Ah I think this is a great idea! I usually only field Nekima with Lilith as I find her to be to expensive in most Crews. But I like the idea of 4 tanky minions with Lucius and a bunch of wannabe Lucius' ordering them around =D

50 SS Neverborn Crew
Lucius + 6 Pool
 - Secret Assets (2)
 - On Wings Of Darkness (1)
 - Surprisingly Loyal (1)
Malifaux Child (3)
Doppleganger (7)
The Claw (7)
The Thorn (7)
The Illuminated (7)
The Illuminated (7)
Guild Lawyer (6)

 

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Ran Mr. Graves into Pandora and her Sorrows last night... Everyone exploded. 

Also played against Misaki, got saddled with a "murder the Leader" strategy, and then made the mistake of doing an all-or-nothing attack with Lucius, losing me the game. When I went against Pandora in the next game I made sure to proxy a Terracotta Warrior and stay analytical, the problem then corrected itself.

I think the new Fae minions + Conflux of Tyranny might give some leverage to Hidden Weapons, with all those dropping scheme markers. What Lackeys Are For at the end of the turn, Backstab frenzy, profit.

 

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Minion space is hard fought for. ;D I just don't have those 7 stones for 1-2 mediocre shots if there are Fae, Illus, Lawyer and Austringer available. Trapper is a safe pick in my Collodi crews but even their he usually only gets attention turn 1. Afterwards those Master AP are usually better spend elsewhere 

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What I kind of want to try is

Lucius 4SS Cache

-Surprisingly Loyal (Terracotta warrior can change this for On Wings of Darkness first turn)

Malifaux Child

Doppelganger

-A Thousand Faces

Mr Graves  / Scion of Black Blood 

Terracotta Warrior 

2x Illuminated

Black Blood Shaman

Terror Tot

 

First turn between Lucius, Child and Doppleganger should be really easy to get black blood on the entire crew and start to move stuff up the board. Then as long as I can keep the shaman up anything being engaged can eat puslate's cast from a variety of models. Terror Tot is used for scheme running and also an easy action for the doppleganger to use if I need her to jump up the board

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4 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I feel like y'all discounted the trapper too quickly.  Lucius being able to give him a Focused AP is pretty significant....

Trappers were amazing even before the errata. I would always consider one in any Lucius list but there are so many good models around seven stones in neverborn (that usually get buffed :meleeattacks) that they're not auto includes.

@Torsul Calling the attack mediocre isn't really fair towards them. It has the potential for really solid damage at 28" range and that  :+fate built in. They can really dictate enemy deployment and movement in the early game and/or force your opponent to take some tough decisions on cheating or do damage when both your hands are depleted.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Trappers were amazing even before the errata. I would always consider one in any Lucius list but there are so many good models around seven stones in neverborn (that usually get buffed :meleeattacks) that they're not auto includes.

@Torsul Calling the attack mediocre isn't really fair towards them. It has the potential for really solid damage at 28" range and that  :+fate built in. They can really dictate enemy deployment and movement in the early game and/or force your opponent to take some tough decisions on cheating or do damage when both your hands are depleted.

Also, given how little shooting we can get in Neverborn, having a 28" shot seems nice. ;)

I do agree, though, with just how many bloody minions there are to take.  I was looking at a Lucius crew recently, and I probably swapped out 10 minions over the course of building it.  And I only have his box for Guild....

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7 hours ago, Torsul said:

@Ludvig your right, he can dictate placement, but Sh5:ranged and his dmg track aren't anything special. Mediocre doesn't mean he's bad. He just loses in comparison to other options. 

Mediocre usually carries a negative connotation. If I say to someone that their lovemaking is mediocre I'm hardly doing it to make them happy. ;) I agree that they're maybe not exceptional but I think at least "good" would describe them better. Overwhelming your opponent with the high volume of flipped cards is very nice to draw some stuff out of their hand. If they let you win that focused hit you can easily do 5 points of damage without spending a single card from just topdecking severe. Playing old Lucius I always found models with plus flips very good. With changelings copying you can do some damage to their hand or their models.

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As said, he's not bad. But he usually doesn't get VP done and doesn't fabricate the damage other 7ss option can deliver with Lucius, so he didn't get in my lists and I won't recommend him to anybody in that constellation.

 

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I'm not trying to force you to take one and I agree about your lists seeming well rounded but I think I could still recommend a random Lucius player that owned one to bring it in their bag to a single master Lucius tournament if the schemes and table setups were unknown. I've used them with success in strats like interference and collect the bounty and for denying hunting party. Some tournament tables are also veritable sniper dreams with large open areas.

Regarding the attack I see it like this: The trapper's 2/3/5 with the possibility of 3/5/6 holds up decently to the illuminated's 2/4/5 even if the 4/6/7 of illuminated is of course higher (but arguably harder to set up). A higher stat is better if you're prepared to cheat but plus flips are really nice for when you have crap hands or need to save cards for a grand finale. The big difference is the  10" threat range of an illuminated compared to the 28" of the trapper. The 28" range is what makes the attack unique and worthwhile and warrants a space in my bag.

I'll stop badgering you about this now. ;) Good luck in the tournament!

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38 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Thousand Faces is non-master.

I know that. Did I indicate that I was attempting to put it on a Master? I clearly marked their equivalent point values, i.e. in askance of which combination is better for the money overall.

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4 hours ago, Masquer said:

I know that. Did I indicate that I was attempting to put it on a Master? I clearly marked their equivalent point values, i.e. in askance of which combination is better for the money overall.

When you brought it up with a Lucius specific upgrade and a leader only upgrade in a Lucius list it would stand to reason you are talking about upgrades specifically for Lucius to have.

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11 hours ago, Masquer said:

Here's a question:

Would you prefer Secret Assests (2) or On Wings of Darkness (1) and A Thousand Faces (1)?

I find assets less mandatory since he has a built in (0) now and faces is nice to have in the list (on another model ;) )

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So, I played my first game with Lucius.  

Surprisingly Loyal, Secret Assets, Scribe, Mysterious Emissary, Mr. Graves, 2 Illuminated, BBS, Lawyer.  I lack many good Guild models, but the Lawyer seemed nice.

Interference strat.  Claim Jump, Eliminate the Leadership, Dig Their Graves, Accusation, Recover Evidence.  All of those seemed great for a crew that can interact while engaged and activate out of sequence.

I tried a couple things - specifically putting Black Blood on the Illuminated, then Fees, and letting it run up in the middle of things and explode.  I played gremlins with a plethora of squeals, so it was less than successful.

Overall, Lucius did not jive with me.  I don't know if I took a bad pool with him, or played him wrong, or what.  I felt like most of the game was just me slowly moving a ball of minions up the field and getting shot at by Ophelia.  Nothing seemed tough, I didn't feel like anything was a huge threat - Mr Graves was okay, but he wasn't enough to strike fear.  Everything else was value - changelings did some good stuff with shooting, but it was lackluster overall.

I found myself using Lucius more for his card than his AP tricks.  Any suggestions?  Am I just too locked in a Lilith + All-Stars or Dreamer mentality?

I'm considering another game with him trying to take advantage of The Tooth + Black Blood Shaman to do some terrible things with a Lure + Black Blood + Minion bonuses.  I feel like The Thorn would be useful there too.  Possibly some Stitched as well for a more aggressive bent.  

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5 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I found myself using Lucius more for his card than his AP tricks.  Any suggestions?  Am I just too locked in a Lilith + All-Stars or Dreamer mentality?

Drop the Black Blood Bomb, add a Doppleganger. Illuminated are your tarpit beaters, and Lucius' right and left hands via Issue Command. Use Mr. Graves' (and Changelings copying) push to ambush and avoid ranged attacks.

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Without an idea of the table lay out what your opponents crew was and which schemes you both took it is very difficult to know how to improve.

If your crew were being mown down by ranged attacks though it suggests that either there was not enough blocking and hard cover on the table or you weren't using it effectively.

The lawyer is a nice piece if you have the tome to ensure two of your front line models gain hard to wound.

This is especially good when combined with other defences such as armour or high df or alternatively counter offensive abilities like black blood.

Fees can also be copied, which is great if your running wp reduction - weaver, Iggy, insidious madness.

As masquer says show you the door can also be copied to push important models behind cover or into/out of melee etc.

If you want torpedo's with the shaman try corrupted hounds.

I think the emmisary while useful in some pools may not be advantageous for learning Lucius.

I would suggest fitting as many 6-8 stone minions/mimics/guardsmen in as you can and then fill gaps with 2-4 stones models for activation control.

Hope some of that rambling assists in some way, keep us updated with your findings.

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So here's a question for more experienced players than me (which is everyone) what does Lucius do for achieving all those strategies and schemes that the Dreamer with a pack of Nightmares doesn't do better? Or is this just one of those internal balance things that just happens. Some models are better than others?

Is the combo of Austringers and summoned Changlings so compellingly awesome that everyone is just focused on that?

Since he's a lot better about helping out minions generally, has anyone tried him with Terror Tots? The combination of "What Lackies Are For", Sprint, Commanding Presense, and Issue Command seems like it would have the little buggers rocketing across the board on turn 1. Or is my lack of experience showing? It seems like swapping him into a nephilim heavy crew along with a lawyer and doppleganger would be pretty good. All those fast and hard hitting minions getting extra boosts from Lucius and the lawyers.

Has anyone tried using him with Tuco? That seems like it would be really good, and marvelously thematic, which counts for a lot in a game that's as much about style and appearance as anything. The thought was that between Doppels and Lucius issuing orders, you can have Tuco's shotgun pinning down a lot of models, and the Commanding Presence can be used to fix Tuco's slow movement. Then if I'm to do Tuco, I was thinking to add Widow Weaver and Beckoners, and experiment with other models that inflict slow or paralyze on models, and just run circles around an opponent by using Lucius to do additional out of activation uses of their powers.

I had a similar thought of using him that way in Guild with Nurse Heartsbane, after I had a game where she stuffed Killjoy into a straightjacket. 

Thoughts?

 

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I think Dreamer probably does everything better than Lucius.

Problems with control builds is that you can't control everything and some strategies really require you to get models off the table (or summon like crazy). 

Also: compared to Pandora or Collodi Lucius doesn't have the faintest idea what control is.

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