Jump to content
cptRamires

Broken Balance

Recommended Posts

First of all, the two images of a board that you showed... This is a bad way to build a Malifaux terrain. You need more obstacles that block Line of Sight, give hard/soft cover, etc. You have left the center of the board waay to open - this should not happen often! I can not stress this enough as this is important: Mix up terrain, block line of sight, provide some cover. With a wide open field like that everyone can charge easily, but models with huge charge are going to charge like nuts and shooters are going to have a field test in shooting. Both are very bad for Neverborn (having started with the faction): You pray from the shadows, use tricks to manipulate the opponent's models, then jump them when the time is right.

In addition as a (current and finally happy) TT player I would add that the Neverborn Masters I would most hate to face are Lilith for the her potent movement shenanigans and Forests, as well as the bitter-tasting puppetry of Collodi. TT has a lot of pushes and healing as well as shooting options - try to limit those. Root things that want to get pushed around in place. Pin models with the Waldgeists' range of 4 FREAKING inches. Outactivate the other guy, then cheat initiative with the Doppelganger next turn to have two consecutive powerful activations. Hide stuff you don't want charged/shot at BEHIND TERRAIN. If can't mess up Yasunori, mess up some other models, preferably the ones that support his glorious charges. Of course, Lilith and Collodi can destroy his positioning and/or drain his AP (he will hate that).

Finally: Dude, get real. Silurids are 3 VP in any game I have taken them (after learning that there are schemes are strategies that require scheme markers). Just don't send them too far ahead of your other models, threaten to charge whatever kills them and them frogman should be fine :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I would.recommend looking at solutions to Yasinori between games and try to get as many games against them as possible. It should be possible to beat them somehow and you will grow as a player by trying to play around such a disadvantage.

This model is bullshit, help me beat it is one discussion I'd gladly have. A few months or a year down the line, if most players haven't figured out any way to beat lists containing the model it might come up for errata. The game survived years of austringers, papa boxes, Francisco, belles, Kirai, prompted Langston etc. without everyone just deaulting to one build.

Practice and theoryfaux for figuring out handling Yasunori will do more than grousing for changes. Also, as @Tris mentions, there's more satisfaction to be gained from figuring out how to deal with it without relying on someone coming in and downgrading it.

The first thing I'd look at is how many stones the 10T player is putting in that one model (12/13). That's a full quarter of their available hiring pool at 50SS. If they're looking to maximize their cache, they will be severely restricted in other hires. The way the game is won is by scoring victory points, and this is typically done by playing for all 10VP you could possibly score, or by playing to the 11VP that determine who wins (substantially harder, requires more practice and knowledge).

Without knowing schemes, strategy, deployment, and opponent, we'll look at it from the angle of the 10T player is trying to score their 10VP. This means that they need to get 2-3 points of work out of this one model, or rely on the rest of their crew to make up those 2-3 points. Not all work is killing or peeking at the deck. Work is things like placing scheme markers, being in certain regions of the board, and sometimes work involves darting out and killing a specific model or two. That last type of work for the Yasunori usually means Headhunter, Collect the Bounty, or Hunting Party. The problem is that if he darts out for a quick Headhunter and is not supported by the rest of the crew, the opponent can pick up the head and score. As an enforcer in a faction full of strong minions, Yasunori is a liability in Collect the Bounty. Lastly, Hunting Party can be more efficiently and reliably collected on by Betty (not even blocking terrain can protect you from her).
That's some of the thinking that may be going through the 10T player's head. Not always, because sometimes there's the "shiny! new!" reaction that gets people running it every chance they get, whether or not it's the the best hire for the strat/scheme pool or master.

So with that in mind, when the strat/scheme pool is drawn and you're considering hires for your crew and you're deeply concerned about a model like the Yasunori, ask yourself if you were the 10T player running the Yasunori into that strategy and those schemes: "what work would it be doing?" If the only answer you can think of is 'killing stuff to kill stuff' (1) it's not scoring points so the rest of the 10T crew will have to work harder, and (2) plan for losing a model a turn.
1. For the first item, your opponent is making a mistake. It may be a distraction that currently keeps you off-balance and not scoring, but with practice and hiring the right crew for the job, its effectiveness will reduce. How are you going to score your victory points? If you take your focus off of the win conditions, the game will be harder. If they focus too much on trying to have a single model rampage around, they might not score the points they need without relying on specific scheme runners. Kill those scheme runners. I've had tournament games end with a 4-2 split that only in the last activation stopped being a 2-2 tie because my opponent and I were killing off each other's schemers and making the strategy near impossible to complete. It makes the game more tense, because it doesn't matter if all your stuff dies if they don't score more points than you.
2. For the second, orient towards schemes that can be done even as your model count goes down. This is good practice to be in, because at some point you're going to play into Guild, Viks, or Rasputina, and you'll lose an average of a tough model model a turn, if not more. If you pick a scheme that counts on you having three minions alive and in the opponent's deployment zone on any given turn, bring six minions (or the ability to summon them), space them out, and pace yourself so that it takes no more than three turns to get into the opponent's deployment zone. This is the part where the low cost of Gupps can help. Otherwise, if you just need to have one or two minions get into there to drop scheme markers or mess with table quarters, take the Gupps' bigger siblings. Silurids are very effective scheme runners because they're hard to target (Silent) and very quick (reliable Leap). Terror tots are also scheme runners to consider because of Sprint. Spread them out and keep them behind blocking terrain and the Yasunori will have to work harder to catch them--potentially not being able to if it's tied up or dead in a distraction fight in the middle of the board.

If you're going to compare it to Nekima, you need to make sure you account for all of Nekima's stuff as well. She's a Henchman and can spend stones. She has Black Blood. She can take two upgrades. Her attack stat is better, which means more reliable attacks, and has longer reach, which means she can charge in at the Yasunori and engage/attack it from far enough away where it cannot retaliate without moving/pushing first. If the Yasunori has to burn its first AP walking in to be able to hit back, it's not going to do nearly as much work. If a model has to activate and spend an action (and cards) pushing the Yasunori, that's another activation for dealing with it before it gets to go.

Then it's also important to remember that the fight between them is not in a vacuum. If Yasunori is under Asami, gets Fast and does a 1AP charge to get deeper into your lines, what does it have around it to help it do stuff? If Yasunori comes crashing into Nekima when Nekima's surrounded by various kinds of Neverborn beasties and Nekima's controlling player has a soulstone cache, what does Nekima have helping her do stuff? The Yasunori's already activated, and with soulstone damage prevention, Nekima's got a good chance of still being on the table (Yasunori has 3 attacks on the charge with the essentially guaranteed trigger; 2 more attacks if both Fast and under Asami, 3 maximum if other trigger is hit). Yasunori can be expected to score damaging hits at least twice.
In this example, Yasunori overextended and will die quite handily to Nekima's Melee expert and the differential (Ml 7 vs Df 5) and the upgrade that lets her ignore armor. If your opponent plays more cautiously, you have more time to get your schemes accomplished. If they send Yasunori out to get a scheme runner on one flank, the scheme runner on the other flank now has a Nekima and two feet between it and the Yasunori. Not to forget that Nekima is also somewhere that's probably more relevant to the strategy or one of the schemes that the Neverborn player (you) picked before deploying models.

 

Speaking of not in a vacuum, I'll second Eclipse's remarks here:

1 hour ago, Eclipse said:

First of all, the two images of a board that you showed... This is a bad way to build a Malifaux terrain. You need more obstacles that block Line of Sight, give hard/soft cover, etc. You have left the center of the board waay to open - this should not happen often! I can not stress this enough as this is important: Mix up terrain, block line of sight, provide some cover. With a wide open field like that everyone can charge easily, but models with huge charge are going to charge like nuts and shooters are going to have a field test in shooting. Both are very bad for Neverborn (having started with the faction): You pray from the shadows, use tricks to manipulate the opponent's models, then jump them when the time is right.

There are several podcasts that talk about Malifaux and terrain that discuss this. The board should feel cluttered and claustrophobic, but still be playable. There should be Ht 3-4 LOS-blocking terrain in the center of the board. There should be a mix of hard and soft cover, impassible, severe, blocking and dense terrain. If you build a table that's effectively an arena in the middle, things that have long threat ranges will always have an advantage. Don't put the buildings around the edges, put them near the center. Make them obstacles to everyone. This helps making who picks deployment zone and deploys first important, because fire lanes and the like become very important. Terrain and deployment are two vital factors into the overall game balance.

As for Ironsides, the only thing she got was her Df trigger against Ml built-in. I'm not sure what the recommended typical Neverborn drop into Arcanists is because I rarely run into typical Neverborn players, but I can tell you that dedicated beaters still tear Ironsides apart. If you're playing a killy crew, kill her support. If you're playing to the schemes, just be aware of what Ironsides' threat to your schemes is and keep your scheme runners where the threat doesn't matter (out of line of sight, out of the You Lookin' At Me? bubble) and position your models so that it limits what Ironsides can do. I'm not going to pull Nekima into Ironsides unless Nekima activated too early, and with Nekima's base, she can block LOS to other models, as well as block push lanes (models push directly towards her and must stop when meeting impassible terrain or another model's base unless they ignore said obstacles, which Silurids do not).

Ironsides is a controller, and if I cannot get into the position I want with the targets I need, I'm not controlling the field as much as I need to. For me, the ideal position is somewhere where I can get strat/scheme points just for being there, and the ideal targets are the scheme runners that don't want to be there (i.e. Silurids, Terror Tots, Gupps etc. that are actually wanting to be behind the lines or along the flanks). I'm not trying to kill them, just keep them from doing what they were hired to do. I find that the biggest mistakes I make with Ironsides all revolve around activation order and target selection.
Make my job harder by forcing bad target selection choices early, which forces me to hold off on Ironsides activation longer than I really want to. Put scheme runners behind walls (even low walls are typically climable, impassible, hard cover, which stops pushes) or behind other models. If your beaters are going to commit but aren't close enough to attack yet, work models like Teddy or Nekima so that they end their activation within their charge threat from Ironsides with a clear path to her. You get a free Ml swing if I pull you in close enough, and Ironsides' Df 5 doesn't help her 14 wounds last very long, even with Hard to Kill. I'll be burning stones to keep her alive, and if the damage is completely prevented I don't get to hit back with the trigger. Even better would be to work models that target Wp or that have attack actions that are not Ml-based into blocking positions.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done a ton of damage with the Rail golem in the past like Francois, Mancha, slop hauler and a young laqois in one activation alternatively i'd never throw it against Lilith as she'd just drop its ML to 3 on the first attack and it wouldn't hit her after that.

This game is all about choosing your match ups.

Anything with armour 2 is not gonna be too bothered by yasunori although of course recalled training will turn it into a beast.

Activation order would be key so a Collodi crew or Lilith with a couple of tots and primordial to pad activations then hypnotic gaze into imaginary forests for slow over 2" away engaged so that it has to walk to get into engagement range would be my idea. Collodi shooting it making it slow and charge its own people next turn would also be horrible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Tris said:

Silurids are maybe the best sole scheme runners in the game, there is really no buff needed!

I dunno, I would probably rate at least Merris, Francois, Fingers (OK, depending on what "Scheme running" means), Necropunks, and Ice Dancers over Silurids. And don't get me wrong, I like Silurids and think that they are fine (certainly not agreeing with the OP about them) but I'm not sure that they are quite at the number one spot as is often claimed.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I dunno, I would probably rate at least Merris, Francois, Fingers (OK, depending on what "Scheme running" means), Necropunks, and Ice Dancers over Silurids. And don't get me wrong, I like Silurids and think that they are fine (certainly not agreeing with the OP about them) but I'm not sure that they are quite at the number one spot as is often claimed.

I'd also rate Performers really high in terms of scheme abilities. What helps Silurids out is their speed, their Silent and Perfect Camouflage abilities, Leap, and the giant distraction in the middle of the table. These make them more likely to succeed in their mission(s), but the distraction in the table needs to be big enough to keep the mobile beaters and/or the picket duty models involved in the distraction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread reminds me of my initial reaction to playing against Reva.  I instantly wanted to have Reva cuddled.  I've shifted towards finding ways for me to beat Reva.  I'm not going to lie though, it's sometimes hard to not revert back to thinking that Reva needs to be cuddled.  And it's a somewhat frustrating process (although I'm a bit of a masochist with my wargames, so the challenge helps mitigate that frustration).  So I totally get where this thread is coming from.

I play Ten Thunders and I haven't actually fielded Yasunori yet, but I do know that he's fragile and he will very likely take something out before he goes down.  Spreading your forces out and forcing him to engage against something that's not as valuable could help.

Another thing to consider: the player that uses Yasunori, did he or she routinely lose against you and now all of a sudden he or she is winning regularly?  If that is true, then there are some possibilities.  One of those possibilities is that Yasunori really is that game-breaking.  Another possibility is that Yasunori is new and different and something you're not used to.  I find this possibility the most realistic.  Ten Thunders haven't had a big expensive beater before.  True, we've had some solid beaters, but not like the other factions.  And because he is new, it's going to take some time to figure out.  The game is won by fulfilling schemes and strategies.  Killing models is not directly the way to win.

If the player(s) that have been using Yasunori against you already win against you with decent regularity then there's probably something else going on.  Especially since Yasunori is new and people aren't used to going up against him.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I dunno, I would probably rate at least Merris, Francois, Fingers (OK, depending on what "Scheme running" means), Necropunks, and Ice Dancers over Silurids. And don't get me wrong, I like Silurids and think that they are fine (certainly not agreeing with the OP about them) but I'm not sure that they are quite at the number one spot as is often claimed.

That's why I said 'maybe' ;)

Was meant as the short form for: faction dependant there might be better things, but still pretty good ^^

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, cptRamires said:

Hi Everyone,

In my club we have few games after January Errata and including new models. I need to notice 
that few last realized miniatures are tottaly imbalansed - which ruin game balance 
:(
"Yasunori" - this enforcer with 12 cc is totaly better then any other 
model. He is faster, deal more damage then other heavy hitters with same 
"game role"... I play Neverborn and my best heavy hitter is Nekima but she 
cost 13, not so fast, deal less damage. 

Another Overpowered model from new book is "Witchling Thrall" - compare it with Teddy - Thrall is much better 
but cost 9 !!! Have these models pass game tests ? All our club players are totaly dissapointed because such miniatures ruin game, it is permanently in all TT rosters, all TT games just because it is far 
ahead over other models in faction... 

And now another "good" news from Errata, I totally cannot understand why Ironsides and Misaki become so strong.  Both are hard counter for  ML models, now you can kill yourself just hitting Ironsides and in case if you didn't took models with Ca and Sh actions which can make threat to master with 14 wounds - you auto loose, she just run in to your models and kill everything, then got heal :(

 


Well - Yasunori is strong model, no doubt. But it's not stronger, than others with similar role. Take a look on Mature Nephilim, for example. With the same price, as Yasunori you can have him with one upgrade. If you play Lilith, you can easily put him in right position to flurry for 3 attacks with minimum dmg of 4, possibly negating armor (Retributions Eye), and causing really nice horror duel on kill at (x)6, which is very potent.
But the best comparison will be Nekima - she's one of my favourite models, and almost always she pays for herself in killed enemies or more importantly, waste of enemy activations trying to get her.
With Malifaux Provides, she can easily heal 5 wounds a turn while removing oponent's scheme markers. With Fears Given Form, she kills low df models just by her presence, or which is even better, drain opponents hand from cards. Her two 0 actions are just awsome - Blood for Blood let you finish HtK or heavily armored enemies, and wreck havoc between group of models, especially if you had pushed them to 1" with attack trigger. And Teach them Fear heals you while terrifing averybody around.
And yes - Yasunori have better damaging potencial in his one charge with fast - but Malifaux is a game of utility and flexibility.

If you look, at Witchling Thrall and Executioner you'll see that they are both on the same power level. And I would prefer Executioner than Thrall in any other list than Lucius, who can use Thralls most effectivly.

And if you have problem with crews like Misaki + Yasunori, just take Pandora. You gonna loose some friends, but you will win games. Only take Poltergeist, and see Misaki with her 7 or even 8 wp melt at minus flipps ;)
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Comparing him to another OP model not the best support. But even then if you accept that Nekima is Ok, and I don't, you invalidate your argument when you say Yasunori (a 12 as enforcer) is equal to a 13ss henchman with upgrade attached.

If your argument is that that is what an appropriately costed high cost model is then you are also arguing that the pale, dead, and hooded riders , the mature nephelim, as well as Archie all should receive significant buffs to be equivalently powerful so that they will show up with the frequency ashes and dust, Yasunori, the mechanical rider and Nekima currently do yes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nekima isn't OP, she's very well priced for what she do. Yasunori is one point cheaper than Nekima and IMO she's bit better than him, so it's working for me. I never said she's equal - i think, that she is great model that can do a lot of hard beating for Neverborns, just like Yasunori for TT and I pointed her pros - and being a henchman is one of them ;)
Mature as I written is just fine with his cost.
Archie seems to have similar power to Nekima, with the same cost and different faction specifics, which is ok.

Rider have their place to shine, but I prefer other models on my table. I don't consider them underpowered - they are just not fit my playstyle.

After few other games I played, and being professional tester for one of them I see Malifaux as best balanced with great variety of playstyles and possibilieties to win. And well - I also prefer to find solutions in game, and when they are really not working start to thinking about changes. It's not even January and some things from January Errata are called OP... this not seems very reasonable IMO.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or maybe crossfaction vacuum comparisons of models aren't very useful for balancing (or other) discussions at all.

There seem to be a few different problems as to why op suffers from TT. May it be unfortunate tabledesign, being confronted with new problems/models, struggling with a special playstyle or whatever. But I am pretty sure Nekima, Mech Rider, Ashes and Dust and so on aren't the problem at hand.

I've got the impression some TT players present here have stated Yasunori isn't an all time auto-win button and showed different paths to counter him.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Torsul - my point on comparison is, that every faction have some powerfull and expencive models. The other thing is, that I would never take some of them in one combination of enemy faction, schemes & strategies and always take them in another.

Also agree that most problems here were alredy pointed or discussed. However I'm always interested in ways that people compare models and other components of a game and valuate one over another.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a false equivalence. Firstly you Cannot possibly fail to see that the named models do not show up with the frequency that ashes and dust, Nekima, Yasunori, and the mech rider do. Ergo they are not equivalent. So that means either the ones that do show up all the time are over powered or all other similarly costed models that don't show up are under powered. So which is it? Do we need to cuddle a few models or buff a lot of models so they are as frequently taken?

Additionally I don't feel your argument that you can't compare across factions is valid. Firstly most models can and do appear in other factions. Why is it not fair to compare the hooded rider and dead rider to ashes and dust and the mech rider when all of them can be paired with any outcast model? Vast numbers of models can appear in any crew due to mercenary, or infiltration, or arcanist assets, or any other odd hiring rule. The factions are so layered across each other that the argument that you can't compare one factions assets to another's is complete and utter nonsense. If that was true then no one should have ever complained about belles.  Other resser 5 stone models regularly made their way into resser lists, so it wasn't as if they were making it so other similarly costed models never saw play. Other factions options were always brought up as to why they were OP.

In response to Archie being equivalent to Nekima, don't make me laugh. They aren't even in the same league.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

In response to Archie being equivalent to Nekima, don't make me laugh. They aren't even in the same league.

Ok, tell my why? I'm not a Resser player and maybe I don't see something important - but he is strong model, with interesting mechanics, very good hitting power, slower than Nekima, but on the other hand more resistant.

And I don't think I said the models you listed are eqivalent. Models with the same price can have very different puposes, and while being well balanced, some of them will apear more frequently than another. I compare Nekima, Yasunori and Mature Nephilim in role of havy hitter - and fact that I prefer to take for example Mature with an upgrade over Rider not means that Rider is underpower. That means only, that in role I need in my crew, Mature works better for me - and maybe also other players.

Look for example at Wind Gamin - this little guy in not overpowerd - but he is priceless if Hunting Party is in the pool, because you can deny it for your opponent just by his existance. In other circumstances he is just 4 ss minion, that isn't even best scheme runner. 
Other one - Primodial Magic. For many people he is autotake, and yes I always consider him and regulary use as my totem - but in some scenarios Poltergeist works much better for me. I take second one in 1 of my 10 games. Is he underpowered? Definitely not. He have his job and do it well. Other job is more frequent, but not more important. You see my point here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No I don't. Wind Gamin have been complained about since they were created and now more than ever because Sandeep can summon them. The other models you mention same thing. They do. It show up in competitive lists because there are better options. The trouble is, and I'm honestly not sure how they solve this, that malifaux isn't very granular, and there are a limited number of roles that can be filled in the game and once there are best choices that's all that gets taken.

As far as the Archie Nekima comparison it sort of encapsulates my point. Nekima is better because she fulfills her role better than Archie does his. Nekima and Archie are beaters but Archie requires you to jump through all sorts of hoops to get him to work, Nekima doesn't. 

A Ml 7 vs Ml 6 is a massive difference, especially considering how few models have df 7. So she hits more accurately and will often be able to force through the attack you want. 6 is good but it isn't a 7. 

Next is delivery. Archie is average speed Nekima is fast. While they both have a charge range of 6 Nekima has flight and that is beyond massively advantageous for a beater model. It means chaff can't very easily block you from getting to the target you want to get to. That is massively important. For example there was a game I played against someone using Lady J and for critical turns I was able to stymie her ability to do massive dmg to my crew by constantly blocking her charge lanes with mindless zombies or other chaff she could certainly kill, but she couldn't kill it and get to where she wanted in the same turn. And when the game is only 5 turns long and it "usually" takes a least a turn to get your beater into position, every turn you are able to dictate how an enemy engages lessens their value. Nekima doesn't generally suffer from this as she is above average in speed, doesn't NEED the highest value cards to ensure a hit, and her other abilities don't require any hoops to jump through. She has one ability that has a TN and it needs a 3. While she isn't the absolute hardest model to kill she isn't exactly a push over either, and frankly her speed and sheer offensive killing power make it more likely she will get where she wants and do what she wants before going down.

That isn't the case with Archie. Archie has exactly 1 thing he can do with that doesnt require hoops, His fist attack. His ranged attack requires getting rid of his upgrades or burning close by corpse markers to take. His tentacle upgrade is of niche use, and requires a 6 to use. His Hulking leap is great, but again requires an 8 to make it work. Which means more than half the time you have to cheat to make it work and cheating in higher value cards make the ability less attractive to use. 

Finally staples on, which is the whole engine his discard/gain back upgrade is supposed to function on requires an 7+ as well as a tome. So he is a constant drain on your hand and SS pool in a faction that is already under extreme pressure on those things, and so don't have the resources to devote to what the master wants to do, and what Archie wants to do, and in addition has the healing limitation smacked on him as well. And top it off by the enemy being able to more easily control what he gets to. 

Models like Nekima and Yasunori are exceptional because they cut all that nonsense out. They are amazing without support, have synergies that help with multiple masters, dictate to rather by the enemy crew ,and either don't require massive amounts of resource investment in game to use their abilities or actively improve your ability to play the game. Archie does none of those things. And it's why you will see Nekima in crew after crew of competitive NB builds and the same for Yasunori in TT while you will rarely ever see Archie. He just requires too many hoops/ resources to use effectively, and can more easily be controlled by the enemy. Not an attractive combination.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, cptRamires said:

if we compare models we compare their  potentional dmg

With all due respect, you are mixed in the same post several different things. Maybe decide one of them?

1. You want to talk about OP models? Try to compare Yasunori with 12ss Enforser. Howard for example. 4/5/6 dmg, instant kill trigger, nimble, arcanist upgrade "drop->get fast", armor+1, Terr(living)12. And if you tell about buff from TT Emissar - I answer "Ramos totem(4ss) can reactivate Howard in 6" just for 10+card". That's more honest comparing. And I hope you saw enough arguments about much more effective Nekima.

2. You need advice how to reduce Yasunori's treat range? Zoraida->Hem->Rooted trigger from Waldgeist. Or bait Yasunori on Waldgeist with blocking charge lines by Tree markers then - counter strike with Nekima/Mature Nephilim/McTavish/whatever. Or outactivate TT, Tangle shadows later->swap Yasunori and kill him with.. you know ;-) We not afraid one scary enforcer with all our tricks.

3. You need advice how to win the game Neverborn vs Misaki+Yasunori ? Give us strat+sheme pool and we'll be glad to discuss this interesting (not sarcasm) case.

Just more specifics and everything 'll be OK =)

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was not originally going to post in this thread, honestly at first it seemed like a giant quagmire but I think tarpit might be more appropriate.  But hey, I got all the way to the end so I guess I can respond.  The first thing I will say is this, Yasunori is new so for better or worse, there is a limited amount of data and experience with him.  I agree with an earlier concern that having a more aggressive errata system can be a double edged sword as it will prompt some people to turn to the errata to handle a problem rather than face alternative routes.  Not necessarily saying that the is the case with the OP but it is going to be an issue to some degree.  This will also be perhaps made worse that we only know the models that get changed, not all the models that were examined and deemed okay where they stand currently.  For all we know models people are currently hounding for erratas on have already been reviewed and deemed sufficient with the data they have collected to not need an errata.  So hounding for an errata is kind of like talking about politics, there is a limit to what you can influence and a limit to what you know about what is going on behind the scene.  You can try to prompt to get attention to a model you deem in need of examination but you will not know if it is unless it gets changed, which it might well not.  Likely the best way to get their attention or at least get it on the list for examination is not threads like this.  This is the sort of thread where you will get suggestions on how to handle the the issue, people that echo thoughts, and people that disagree.  A better way to get a model changed would be to start a thread for people to post their battle reports on games using the model.  Threads like that let people examine how models are doing, what they are using with it, what choices led to what results, and gives a better picture of what is actually happening.  If they find the data might back up the concerns of balance they will be more likely to earmark it.  A post like this is going to turn into exactly what I said, a quagmire and the testing staff likely has a limited amount of time to shuffle through the forums for relevant points.

Now with a new model like Yasunori, I would not be surprised if they do not face an errata till at least next January.  If you think about it this way the newest models are the ones that were the most recently being Beta tested and they likely have a stack of information about those models.  Now this is not to say that things slipped through a Beta, I mean the fact we have Erratas mean there have been issues.  No Beta is perfect as is no game.  Odds are though they will give time for the new models to reach the wider gaming masses and to let the communities digest it all.  More than a couple models were hailed as powerful for their cost when they came out only for opinion to change as they were actually played and experience developed.  Others were hailed as weak but over time have developed their own places in their factions.

I can understand also wondering why some models got certain treatment in the recent Errata as well, but lets be honest, it is doubtful that models were picked at random for testing and those tested did not faced several rounds of examination in the process.  That does not mean you have to agree with the results, you are welcome to your opinion, but you also have to acknowledge that playtesters might be right.  At least until it has faced enough time out in the field under the community access. 

I would also be mindful when comparing models across faction as while they can be similar functions or cost there are differences between the factions that can play a factor in the value of a model.  The ability to buff or debuff are important, but so is the cost of getting those.  If it cost half your points to buff something up, then it might not be worth it unless the buff yields that much results.  Also how easy something can be countered plays an important part in value.  A trick easily countered is one that often only works once while a reliable one can have greater value.

Now I could go into a long winded rant about my thoughts on these models and why I am not as concerned but I have already written a chunk of a thread and it grows late so perhaps another time.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cross faction comparison isn't usefull as different factions set different preconditions. For your Archie Nekima example: many nvb models have inherently good movement (because high stats, different possibilitys to move or push and so on), while resser aren't especially the quickest. That's by no means a total fact for each and every model but you get the point. At this premise a fast model for resser has a higher value due to nvb. The opposite is e.g. the case for h2w on a model. Nekima Ml stat may be higher but in a faction without Canin remain's and few possibilities to debuf defence. Intrafaction balancing is a huge point which is nihilated by easiely comparing across factions. Balancing between factions is usually done on a more holistic scale.

Of course you can compare those models across factions and of course people do it all the way and shout op (or npe ...) but that don't always make it right or meaningfully. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I probably repeat myself from other topic entries but can we please stop to compare factions, models, situation. In a well balanced game like Malifaux the only thing you should compare is yourself to other players.

In the very end it is not a model, not a flip or anything else that loses or wins a game. It is you.

Everything else are excuses.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are very strong models in each respective factions. I certainly would never send Nekima against Archie if i could avoid it, especially if he has the armor upgrade on (Nekima hates armor).  Turf war seems a situation where i could not avoid it...and the outcome of that duel would likely be the destruction of both. It's the support from other models in the crew that might tip the scales more widely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

I was not originally going to post in this thread, honestly at first it seemed like a giant quagmire but I think tarpit might be more appropriate. 

The first thing I will say is this, Yasunori is new so for better or worse, there is a limited amount of data and experience with him. 

A better way to get a model changed would be to start a thread for people to post their battle reports on games using the model. 

Now with a new model like Yasunori, I would not be surprised if they do not face an errata till at least next January. 

I would also be mindful when comparing models across faction as while they can be similar functions or cost there are differences between the factions that can play a factor in the value of a model.  The ability to buff or debuff are important, but so is the cost of getting those.  If it cost half your points to buff something up, then it might not be worth it unless the buff yields that much results.  Also how easy something can be countered plays an important part in value.  A trick easily countered is one that often only works once while a reliable one can have greater value.

Now I could go into a long winded rant about my thoughts on these models and why I am not as concerned but I have already written a chunk of a thread and it grows late so perhaps another time.

 

I've trimmed down to some highlights that I feel are especially important. First: threads that start off like this one did get people stuck in Ironside's Come Get Some aura, and it's very easy to get suckered into paying attention to the wrong things and get exhausted for our efforts. 

Yasunori is new and newly available to a wider audience. That means more people will run into it, and some people will be caught flatfooted. If you wander over into some of the other forum channels and browse a bit, you'll see that this is a cyclic thing. For a while it was "ermagerd Reva is broken", but that's calmed down. With more experience against her, people are figuring out how too deal with her new twist on Resser play. Before that was another model, and so on. Once the newness wears off, people have either figured out what to do about it, or their local gaming crowd leaves it out of the list until tournaments.

If every time you (general you) run into model X, it hurts your hobby, record the strat/scheme and what crew you played, and as @EnternalVoid recommends, start a thread. If you don't start it off with "this is broken", you're more likely to get some feedback that either helps you resolve the problems you're having, or provides additional data into how a certain model appears too good for its cost. Then be patient, because the developers and testers will be trying to find the root cause of the problem.
Howard Langston (brought up by @Trixter) is an example of a model that could have been reviewed for "too good". Reactivate from Ramos' totem would not be the kicker of interest, instead it may be the fact that with some smart crew hiring and upgrade selection, a good hand, and a couple of Mechanical Doves and a Mobile Toolkit, Cassandra and Colette could get an absurd amount of work out of him. The fix for that is in this latest errata, even if this model wasn't actually being reviewed directly: limiting Prompt. Howard's still a lethal 12SS enforcer, but now he's not crossing the table wiping out an entire crew in a single turn in the first turn, second turn at the latest. He wasn't exactly doing that against experienced players either, because they had figured out that slow, paralyze, bury, rooting, and just pushing him around corners significantly limited his effectiveness, and that a solid couple of hits would remove him altogether. The always popular (in 2016) Colette crew featuring a Howard Langston, Cassandra, Angelica, Mobile Toolkit, Mechanical Doves, and a pair of Coryphee that people could play into virtually every strat/scheme (with adjustments on quantities and exact composition based off of personal preference/available models) which would definitely be a rough game for newer players is no longer going to work the same way.

Data about meta and usage takes time to compile. If there were to be Wave 4 master upgrades for the Emissaries, those would be waiting on the same information being collected and analyzed. 

If you're looking for ways to beat or work around the Yasunori, let's avoid the Ironsides black hole and instead look at experiences with and against the model. I haven't assembled mine yet, but I will tell you that I'm looking forward to running it with McCabe (Wild Ones), a Warden, and Mounted Guard because of how they will interact with each other and McCabe tossing around upgrades. The list is designed to be mobile but work together. There are two immediate weaknesses in it, however: (1) low model count, easy to out-activate, and (2) reliance on keeping up with each other, which a controller can disrupt. It will be up to me to figure out how they would get work done (and replace models in the crew as I figure out more weaknesses in the crew), and a large part of evaluating it will be reflecting on the opponents I've played it into--something that should be done anyway.

A really good player can take a mediocre-seeming crew and do well in competitive environments with it. Models have less to do with how well they do than practice, understanding the win conditions, correctly guessing their opponent's schemes based off of crew hired and board positioning, and using the models they have to do the work they're best suited for. The rest of us have crutches and walkers that we use because we know they work, we don't have much practice with other items, and/or we find comfort and joy in using them.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't use crutches, I only have some models I'm more familiar with ;)

If you think Yasinori are bad I would advice a few games against Ulix. I imagine it is a similar experience. The only difference is that the charges never   ...ever.. end. Think I lost about 30 ss worth of models to a single Sow-charge (so 1 ap from Ulix). I have since tried to adjust and done better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gosh, this all looks exciting! 

It strikes me that comparison between factions and models has to be a thing to a certain extent - there couldn't be a game otherwise. However, factoring in the synergies between other models is obviously important and doing so is incredibly complex.

But everyone likes simple! So...

Yasunori seems to be a very solid cruise missile - quite clearly its principle role, as compared to a rider's rienforcement role.

Not faced yasunori, but I would anticipate the piece has a role similar to the Vik of Blood - and tactics employed to deal with her (conservative deployment, bait and counter etc.) would likely be applicable to yasunori. 

Yasunori is more durable and will need a harder counter, but common defensive abilities will blunt his assault better. TT are more durable than the viks crews tend to be, but yasunori eats into the Crew's ss more. The card draw/shuffling stuff seems like quite a bit of icing if I'm honest, but perhaps balances the ss other factions alpha-strikers tend to use.

I would suggest putting down yasunori is a statement that the game will start on certain terms, ignoring that and playing the way one initially wanted to is not likely to be successful against someone of equal+ skill. 

Regarding model choice In general - particularly in the 10ss+ range - there seem to be those with very solid cost effective abilities, that can be strong in a lot of situations and are therefore popular in general and particularly with less experienced players. Take many of the emissaries for example. However, there are other models that are more specialised, strong in fewer circumstances, but in experienced hands can be more effective than the all rounders in those specific circumstances - rewarding player skill in positioning and identification/creation of thone circumstances.

I think this is healthy for the game 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I won't get deep into this discussion but IMHO Yasunori is slightly too good in what he is doing and gets dangerously close to the auto-pick level like i.e. Doppelganger or TT/Resser Emissaries and this is not good situation.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

I won't get deep into this discussion but IMHO Yasunori is slightly too good in what he is doing and gets dangerously close to the auto-pick level like i.e. Doppelganger or TT/Resser Emissaries and this is not good situation.

I don't have much experience with Yasunori from either side of the table, but there's enough solid henchmen, enforcers and pricier minions in Ten Thunders that I'd need a reason to drop them for Yasunori.  And anyone who relies on an auto pick model is asking to have his crutch kicked out from under him anyways.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...