Jump to content
cptRamires

Broken Balance

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

The likelyhood of every attack hitting and getting the right trigger can't be that high. 

Of course it is to make the argument actually work. Otherwise he's wrong.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately no,  he still can make 4 attack on single charge without any support from other models. In order to  get triggers he just need  hit with one of all 4 suit whish are included and get free attack.  Then hit with 2 left suits to have another free attack. And that all with + to attack flip.

1 minute ago, qoob said:

First of all you have to play Asami to have this option. 2nd you always have to have Asami in 4" to Yasunori to pull that off. 3rd you have to spend a lot of cards to hit the right triggers. 

Yasunori is good but there are similar models in other factions too. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Of course it is to make the argument actually work. Otherwise he's wrong.

if we compare models we compare their  potentional dmg.   If none of them  hit then both have dmg 0.  However ML6 with +   has  good chances to hit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, cptRamires said:

Unfortunately no,  he still can make 4 attack on single charge without any support from other models. In order to  get triggers he just need  hit with one of all 4 suit whish are included and get free attack.  Then hit with 2 left suits to have another free attack. And that all with + to attack flip.

 

Yep, but that is good - neither unfair nor unbalanced. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, cptRamires said:

Ok  lets put them,   Yasunori  Charge range 12,  Nekima 9.   Ysunori  min dmg 12 max 20  (we take all that all attacks hit and both triggers worked),  Nekima min 12 max 18.     Nekima only defense vs him is preventation with cc   but he has armour so it is like  preventation for 1 every attack.  So as for me he is better  but for some reason is cheaper... 

Ml 7 vs Ml 6, Terrifying and Willpower checks out of the ass vs one pseudo obey that only works on minions and attack actions, Melee expert vs anything ranging from Melee Master to Melee nothing if you're not hitting anything.

Nekima is the far more consistent contender, while Yasunori will shine brighter if everything goes their way. Which it won't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In perfect storm consitions I would point you to Santiago, Cerberus and the Rail golem. If they keep hitting their triggers they have a chance at more or less infinite damage.

The rail golem is only ml 5 but can easily get + to attacks and taken with Marcus it could be supported by canine remains who lower the opponents df so it could get to the equivalent of ml 6 or 7 without too much trouble. Marcus could probably put the opponent at negatives too. So that would be 5 min damage for each attack with a fairly possible 10 extra triggered attacks on a charge, that's about 50 minimum damage if they all attacks connect and the combo is actually cheaper than the Yasinori one.

You have to consider likely outcomes. Models that trigger extra attack CANhave ridiculous activations about once in a blue moon but most hands and flips can't support it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, cptRamires said:

if we compare models we compare their  potentional dmg.   If none of them  hit then both have dmg 0.  However ML6 with +   has  good chances to hit. 

There's a saying in wargames - directly comparing models in different factions is a fools errand. Each one has access to things that the other doesn't. In Malifaux case, upgrades and auras from models the other can't get. You're ignoring all the advice being given to you and keep going back to 'Yanusori hits harder'. Listen to these people, they know what they're talking about.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Nekima doesn't have armour though.

I've been slaughtered by Nekima so many times I tend over egg her ability.  Greg P used to enjoy me asking about the horror duel I didn't need to roll every time we played. part of the reason this thread is so funny.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Nekima has regeneration, ability to heal 2 damage if she kills, black blood, which allowes her to deal some damage to opponent's models when someone tries to kill her, she can push models to get benefit from Pounce. And at last she can force you to apply Horror Duels, so probably can paralize few models. Nekima has much more pros for her cost in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, cptRamires said:

Unfortunately no,  he still can make 4 attack on single charge without any support from other models. In order to  get triggers he just need  hit with one of all 4 suit whish are included and get free attack.  Then hit with 2 left suits to have another free attack. And that all with + to attack flip.

 

I'm afraid that doesn't work that way. If you're compairing min Dg, considering both hits, Yasunori's is 9, i.e: attack, auto-trigger, and second attack without trigger, cause to ensure that you need the right card in your hand, and hence, it's not the minimun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, cptRamires said:

I mean silirids are worst then Guups,  same shame runners but 4 cc   and can be spammed with Mother,  now with wisps  it can be done While Mother do other things... 

Silurids leap 7" and 69% of the cards can cast it. Gupps leap 5", but more significantly only 26% of the cards can cast it. So Silurids are more reliable when it comes to getting where they need to be and to get away from scheme runner hunters.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, as a Misaki player, I doubt I'll be including Yasunori often in my lists. 12SS (13 with RR) are too much SSs, and my playstile requires versatile crews, which implies I can't invert too much in a single model, and in any case, Sensei Yu w/ WRS (11SS) or Shadow Emissary (10SS) are better and cheaper options to include in a Misaki list.

And about the errata, althought I'm extremely happy and excited with the changes Misaki got, I don't think they make her significantly better, but more versatile/ no so straight forward. A Stalking Bisento Misaki will still work almost without difference from pre-errata, but now at least it allows to play her without Stalking Bisento and in more versatile ways.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Phinn said:

Hello @cptRamires :)

something I learnt from Dota - The best way to learn how to play against things you consider too strong is to play them yourself. This way you will find ways how to shut them down or just how difficult or situational they are.

I was going to suggest this too. Try swapping crews. Talk to your opponent after the game on what you could have done better (from list building to how you played the game). All of these things will be a lot more productive than saying something's broken (even if it actually is broken!). When I get smashed, I usually stew on it for a few days, then try to come up with counters.

In all of your examples, you're basically setting up the perfect storm for Yasunori. There's also been a lot of great advice here so far, I'll try to add some from a 10T player's perspective later.

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Don't they ignore LoS for charges or something?

No, they don't. Misaki can charge while engaged and ignores terrain and models (the FAQ specifically states she and Schill need LoS). 

Yasunori just has flight and Ht3. Note, I use just here as an understatement, that combination is incredibly good!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tokapondora said:

Nekima is the far more consistent contender, while Yasunori will shine brighter if everything goes their way. Which it won't.

Yasunori - for 0 ap checks cards and arranges them. This is so powerful that I cannot even tell you how great is it. This is my only grief with the model. He is just to consistent. He is immune to bad cards - you just check whats on top of a deck - what you have in hand and take informed decision rather then educated guess. Why I cry bad design ? Because if Yasunori didn't have this action he would be still considered as strong and taken pretty often - with it - he is just to good.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tapdancer said:

I've been slaughtered by Nekima so many times I tend over egg her ability.  Greg P used to enjoy me asking about the horror duel I didn't need to roll every time we played. part of the reason this thread is so funny.

I knowthat feeling. Once you gwt burned a couple of times by a model you tend to overrate it. I had a rail golem cheat and topdeck something like 4 or 5 tomes once. Squish goes the master despite cheating my whole hand and preventing with a crapton of stones. Then people kept calling them underpowered :D Same thing with Langston. Hatehatehate! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading through this whole thread, I still don't see the auto include thing. He's good, but that's expensive for good. Plenty of models are good and I don't always hire them. Otherwise my lists would all be exactly the same. 

And I agree that you can't compare perfect situations. If you were, I'd have to bring up Francois with Stilts who could hit Max damage 30 in 1 activation, but I don't hear any complaining about him. 

Killing your opponent to stop their scoring is a valid option. I have friends that play that way. Problem is that it doesn't always work. If they kill an important model, or have a counter to it so it doesn't kill as effectively, then that's it. 

Block charge lanes, root it in place. Hell, use the Wisps and move it away from where it wants to go. Be a dick and try gremlins and Zipp, built in trigger, enemy can't take charge actions. There are options in every faction to deal with models like this that do nothing but attack. It's kind of the whole point of the game, I feel. Any play style can work, because any play style can be countered. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's funny I hear lots of complaining about him.

Up to this point it has been clear errata was not going happen except in the most outrageous of circumstances. Francois was released early and I remember lots of complaining about him but it died down on forums when it because it was clear he wasn't changing. Now that there is an agressive errata policy, even if it is limited, I would expect over time more complaint threads popping up hoping for a change. So I wouldn't take the fact that there isn't outcry over other models as proof such and such model is ok. There has been outcry.

 

And to clarify Yasunori doesn't just attack. He has more range and mobility to tie things up and more importantly has a bonkers 0 action that gives too much information for too little cost. That ability should have at least required the requirement of burning a 9+ for the power that information gives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, cptRamires said:

Another Overpowered model from new book is "Witchling Thrall" - compare it with Teddy - Thrall is much better 
but cost 9 !!! Have these models pass game tests ? All our club players are totaly dissapointed because such miniatures ruin game, it is permanently in all TT rosters, all TT games just because it is far 
ahead over other models in faction... 

-> nothing from me about Yasunori and overpowered Misaki her, as I think pretty much everything has been said, but I wanted to ask one thing:

Did you really mean to write that the Thralls are taken in every `Ten Thunders` list? 

And now another "good" news from Errata, I totally cannot understand why Ironsides and Misaki become so strong.  Both are hard counter for  ML models, now you can kill yourself just hitting Ironsides and in case if you didn't took models with Ca and Sh actions which can make threat to master with 14 wounds - you auto loose, she just run in to your models and kill everything, then got heal :(

-> I can only suggest that you take a look in the respective TT/Arcanist sub-forums here and see for yourself the problems these 2 masters struggle with, especially Ironsides.

Also I as neverborn player expected in this errata that our "weak" models will get buff... Actually I mean Barbaros and Candy -  both henchmns who rarely in game.  Barbaros is great, but he cost 10! Compare it with Guild Jurde or Francisco pls? both cheaper and better.  Candy - no commentrs at all - yes her abilities is good, but CA 5  while you let appear in game models with WP9 (Misaki or Perdita) pfff.  And her  manipulative is lower then even on Chagelenig but she is henchman with cost of 9 !!!

-> personally, I think the judge is not a good model, but I think everyone has his opinions....

And last one is "Silurid"  7CC  cost  for what ?  useless model, when these will get buff ?  

-> Silurids are maybe the best sole scheme runners in the game, there is really no buff needed!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tris said:

Did you really mean to write that the Thralls are taken in every `Ten Thunders` list? 

Sorry dat was about Yasunori - he is too good and will appear in most games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would.recommend looking at solutions to Yasinori between games and try to get as many games against them as possible. It should be possible to beat them somehow and you will grow as a player by trying to play around such a disadvantage.

There have been several models deemed npe to face, some where errata'd and some are countered by not playing to their strengths. If single high powered models always meant auto-wins I would expect something coming close to the ultimste list having won more major tournaments at this time. I would hate it if the more pronounced stance on errata would lead to people being less likely to try and work out in game counters because most of the time there probably is one.

This model is bullshit, help me beat it is one discussion I'd gladly have. A few months or a year down the line, if most players haven't figured out any way to beat lists containing the model it might come up for errata. The game survived years of austringers, papa boxes, Francisco, belles, Kirai, prompted Langston etc. without everyone just deaulting to one build.

This model is bullshit, it should be errata'd before its general release seems like a boring solution to me. Each errata should be carefully considered. We seem to currently be at book 1 and 2 for most of our erratas.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LudvigTrue words, I hope people will not stop to try and look how to beat a model instead of crying for cuddles (and maybe buffs) all around -> I have a big issue with that kind of mentality, I even started a thread about it once^^

 

Try to beat your nemesis, the feeling when you eventually manage that will be worth it :)

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He is definitely a strong model, but there are things that can be done against it.

 

Like the other riders/Perdita/Izamu/Howard, Yasunori requires a clear path and LoS to any target. Flight helps, but it still needs a path to charge. 

One option is to block it off/bog it down. You said you play Neverborn, so Waldgeists are an excellent option, as are Lilith and the Emissary. If you can't put him in a corner, build a corner where he is. If he's being run with Asami, don't forget that you can obey him (I know he has stubborn) to charge at Asami for (1) and hurt her in the process. Lastly, accept that models are going to die in your game, but work to mitigate those losses to things that won't score you VP. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

I would.recommend looking at solutions to Yasinori between games and try to get as many games against them as possible. It should be possible to beat them somehow and you will grow as a player by trying to play around such a disadvantage.

There have been several models deemed npe to face, some where errata'd and some are countered by not playing to their strengths. If single high powered models always meant auto-wins I would expect something coming close to the ultimste list having won more major tournaments at this time. I would hate it if the more pronounced stance on errata would lead to people being less likely to try and work out in game counters because most of the time there probably is one.

This model is bullshit, help me beat it is one discussion I'd gladly have. A few months or a year down the line, if most players haven't figured out any way to beat lists containing the model it might come up for errata. The game survived years of austringers, papa boxes, Francisco, belles, Kirai, prompted Langston etc. without everyone just deaulting to one build.

This model is bullshit, it should be errata'd before its general release seems like a boring solution to me. Each errata should be carefully considered. We seem to currently be at book 1 and 2 for most of our erratas.

Yasunori is Df 5, Ht 3, no HtW or HtK. He is fast, and belongs to a faction that is notorious for push shenanigans. He is best used as a cruise missile early on when he has his pick of which models to destroy to earn his cost. 

Ranged attacks or tanky beatsticks, expect him to come at you as soon as possible, don't clump your models up, and don't try to lure him in with tempting bait because he can easily destroy it. His 12 Wd means you either need your own cruise missile, or you need to concentrate attacks until he is dead. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...