Broken Balance

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, Seryjniak said:

Pro players jump into what has the best chance to put them in 1 place

I don't think only TT got good new models. Seems like there are a lot of really amazing players sticking more or less true to their factions or not necessarily jumping into a new faction because of one new model. Reva could probably smack a couple of Yasinori silly before they did too much damage.

[cptRamires]

Blocking los  great,  but unfortunately I can't block los to everyone.  And that is only 1 master. I mean you will see dat Yasunori in all TT rosters, so you should look on it more closely  after dat Errata and new GG2017.  Combine new Misaki  Yasunori and Emissari,  now add  there Anna Lovelace   and few sheme Runners  and imagine what dat combo will do in the middle of the board. 

 

[Ludvig]

The definition of a pro player is that they beat you silly when you thought their list looked like crap (in my eyes at least)  

[Joel]

Will it score 10vp sat in the middle of the board? Doubtful, so I'll just go and do that instead

[Ludvig]

Wait, they don't ignore LoS?! That made the problem less scary to me. Don't stand where they can see you would be my first tip  Learn to build proper boards with lots of houses and learn to position so their 50mm base won't fit on the side they need to be on to attack you.

[cptRamires]

But how ?   his models are faster and deal more dmg then yours/  If you try  put marker  he just kill shem runner and  after he gor advantage in activations Horse and misaki will go for your key models.

3 minutes ago, Joel said:

Will it score 10vp sat in the middle of the board? Doubtful, so I'll just go and do that instead

 

[santaclaws01]

10 minutes ago, Seryjniak said:

While I'm not in the haven fall on my head boat I cannot agree with your statements sir. Hooded rider is crap compered to Yasunori - he doesnt fly, cannot make another model attack, isn't as AP efficient and most off all has no way of generating cards AND seeing what is in the deck (and changing it). One of my main opponents is T10 player and I fear Yasunori more then anything that T10 has to offer - not because he is OP - he is not but because he is prime example of crude and primitive game design - a auto include model that really will be in every T10 roster once he hits retail.

On the other hand Witchling Trall IS better then Teddy - he is cheeper, has great build in triggers.

Each to his own - I would not dismiss someone opinion that easily. Time will tell (and stats will show if T10 jump in the ranking or not)

No, instead he has an 18" threat range on his own, up to min damage 5 and gets harder to kill as the game goes on, can push friendly models around with him and his attack every model in range action.

 

The Witchling Thrall is good. It is not better than Teddy.

 

I'm not dismissing his opinion because whether a model is OP or worthless isn't an opinion.

[cptRamires]

4 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Wait, they don't ignore LoS?! That made the problem less scary to me. Don't stand where they can see you would be my first tip  Learn to build proper boards with lots of houses and learn to position so their 50mm base won't fit on the side they need to be on to attack you.

Here are few boards in our club in our last tornament 

[Tapdancer]

6 minutes ago, Joel said:

No they don't. They tend to play one faction very well due to excellent knowledge of their factions options and capabilities.  They get to the top because they consistently win games, not jump onto the latest hotness.

 

 

 

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah 
Zip-A-Dee-A 

My oh my, what a wonderful day
Plenty of sunshine heading my way
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A

 

Also, this thread is amazing, as a hardcore Yasunori player I totally approve of this message.

[Tokapondora]

The thing about this fast 1 AP charge Yasunori is that it takes 22 SS and a specific master. For a Ml6 3/4/5 damage track. I'd rather have 3 Ml7 attacks with a 4/5/6 track because you're much more likely to do max damage. And overal, his design is incredibly straightforward. He doesn't have fancy tricks, he doesn't ignore armor-inco-HtW-HtK, he just hits stuff. Yeah, he's good, but he's hardly an auto include. He has a time and a place, but even there he doesn't magically outshine all similarly costed models. Look at Langston, the tricks people can do with Killjoy... 

As for Misaki - she used to be a very underwhelming master. Everything she did other TT masters did better. Now, with the 0 action, not much has changed. If she uses it, she gives up the chance to put stalk on you or make an Ml7 2/4/6 attack with a  to attack and damage, in exchange for a bit more survivability. She got a nice extra option to give her some change in her incredibly straightforward and predictable playstyle. This isn't going to make her some kind of powerhouse 

I do agree the Thralls seem a bit on the upper end of the powercurve, but I'd rather wait a full year and see them in action with multiple people before calling for cuddles. 

[Joel]

2 minutes ago, cptRamires said:

But how ?   his models are faster and deal more dmg then yours/  If you try  put marker  he just kill shem runner and  after he gor advantage in activations Horse and misaki will go for your key models.

 

I can't tell you how to play a game where I don't know the terrain or scheme pool.  What I can say is that the approach you describe means that you can force him to extend in one direction which you can then take advantage of.  You can then kill that part of him crew.

You need to learn to dictate the board a little better too by the sound of things - he can't move his models if you root them (for example). You need to set up an area of the board he doesn't want to throw that stuff into, so look for models that can weather the storm or simply not care about it with Df/wp triggers. 

This forum can't give you a simple answer, you have to plan/play this through 

[Ludvig]

Is their ability to charge for a (1) worded so that Collodi and Zoraida can force them to do it? An obey or acollodi's thing should mess it up badly. 

A sniper or two might also be a decent way to put some pressure on the player.

I believe neverborn can out-activate TT on most occassions. Do that, pull a heavy hitter forward late in a turn so you can charge the Yassi, then cheat initiative with a doppleganger next turn and you have two activations without any reaction in between. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that they're not strong but to a player of Joel's caliber they're probably a fun challenge more than a ragequit. I usually expect to lose against new models for a few games until I learn their limitations.

[Joel]

3 minutes ago, Tapdancer said:

 

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah 
Zip-A-Dee-A 

My oh my, what a wonderful day
Plenty of sunshine heading my way
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah
Zip-A-Dee-A

 

Also, this thread is amazing, as a hardcore Yasunori player I totally approve of this message.

I said tend ? 

And yes, I'm sure that's the only reason I'm any good at this game - I'd best go and buy into 10T quick!!

[Ludvig]

@cptRamires those boards are screaming for double trappers on a rooftop killing stuff in their deployment zone eagerly cheered on by Lucius. 

I would recommend adding 2-3 small forests to each of those boards and adding a lot of terrain to the center.

[cptRamires]

14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Is their ability to charge for a (1) worded so that Collodi and Zoraida can force them to do it? An obey or acollodi's thing should mess it up badly. 

A sniper or two might also be a decent way to put some pressure on the player.

I believe neverborn can out-activate TT on most occassions. Do that, pull a heavy hitter forward late in a turn so you can charge the Yassi, then cheat initiative with a doppleganger next turn and you have two activations without any reaction in between. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that they're not strong but to a player of Joel's caliber they're probably a fun challenge more than a ragequit. I usually expect to lose against new models for a few games until I learn their limitations.

This is one of the ways to counter them, but again "stuborn" it mean that Master should spend 2 ap  to get clear flip  (Collodi can ttake focus from his toys). Don't you think it is too  much for just enforcer ?   We campere it to Nekima and seems like  lady losing dat compare.  Armour, flight, stubborn, pul cards  great 0 actions,  + on ML flips,  all triggers included... 

[cptRamires]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

@cptRamires those boards are screaming for double trappers on a rooftop killing stuff in their deployment zone eagerly cheered on by Lucius. 

I would recommend adding 2-3 small forests to each of those boards and adding a lot of terrain to the center.

We  have different boards, I just can't upload images - there is some limit on uploads  It was just example that we have los blocs and don't play on emptyfield.

[Seryjniak]

7 minutes ago, Joel said:

I'd best go and buy into 10T quick!!

Or you can buy into Gremlins - someone said they are very OP too

[Tokapondora]

2 minutes ago, cptRamires said:

We  have different boards, I just can't upload images - there is some limit on uploads  It was just example that we have los blocs and don't play on emptyfield.

I'd argue these boards are very forgiving for drawing LoS. I know I tend to play with boards filled to the brim with walls, rocks and folliage, but this just screems for a Ht3 model with flight to charge literally everything it wants, especially with the openness of the center board. If a Ht 1 walkway is all that blocks sight from one side of the board to the other I'd say you could stand to kick it up a notch.

[Rathnard]

Put Nekima vs Yasunori and I'm pretty sure Nekima will win 90% of the time. 

Under ideal circumstances Yasunori will come in with more attacks, sure. But that Armour +1 she has will massively blunt any hits and Nekima will do far more damage with each strike. And she doesn't need an Emissary and Master to help her along either. 

More on topic,  think Joel has nailed the crux of the problem here. Malifaux isn't a game where you can charge headlong into your opponent and kill everything for the win (usually). AP denial/efficiency and concentrating on scoring VPs is what wins games. Not a supercharged Yasunori or Misaki wiping out models.  

[cptRamires]

6 minutes ago, Rathnard said:

Put Nekima vs Yasunori and I'm pretty sure Nekima will win 90% of the time. 

Under ideal circumstances Yasunori will come in with more attacks, sure. But that Armour +1 she has will massively blunt any hits and Nekima will do far more damage with each strike. And she doesn't need an Emissary and Master to help her along either. 

More on topic,  think Joel has nailed the crux of the problem here. Malifaux isn't a game where you can charge headlong into your opponent and kill everything for the win (usually). AP denial/efficiency and concentrating on scoring VPs is what wins games. Not a supercharged Yasunori or Misaki wiping out models.  

Ok  lets put them,   Yasunori  Charge range 12,  Nekima 9.   Ysunori  min dmg 12 max 20  (we take all that all attacks hit and both triggers worked),  Nekima min 12 max 18.     Nekima only defense vs him is preventation with cc   but he has armour so it is like  preventation for 1 every attack.  So as for me he is better  but for some reason is cheaper... 

[Tapdancer]

Back on topic

Yasunori is very strong which you would expect for 13 stones (nobody in their right mind doesn't tale Recall Training with it).

As has already been noted Armour and incorporeal reduce it's effectiveness.

I've had the odd game where it does amazing things but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Yasunori is a counter to Nekima (the 10" charge is great) but is unlikely that when they clash Yasunori will take down Nekima on it's own due to armour and soul stones.

[Ludvig]

17 minutes ago, cptRamires said:

This is one of the ways to counter them, but again "stuborn" it mena that Master should spend 2 ap  to get clear flip  (Collodi can ttake focus from his toys). Don't you think it is too  much for just enforcer ?   We campere it to Nekima and seems like  lady losing dat compare.  Armour, flight, stubborn, pul cardm  great 0 actions,  + on ML flips,  all triggers included... 

I would use soulstones. The ability to spend a soulstone to get a positive was made to have as an option in cases like this. Make the Yasinori slow or steal one of its ap and it won't doing that much for its activation (except quite possibly charging and killing its friends). That would be worth a master ap and a ss any day of the week (or as you pointed out, using the focus from a 3ss totem).

There are some models that are way more survivable than others: illuminated, depleted and tons of ressers.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, cptRamires said:

Ok  lets put them,   Yasunori  Charge range 12,  Nekima 9.   Ysunori  min dmg 12 max 20  (we take all that all attacks hit and both triggers worked),  Nekima min 12 max 18.     Nekima only defense vs him is preventation with cc   but he has armour so it is like  preventation for 1 every attack.  So as for me he is better  but for some reason is cheaper... 

The likelyhood of every attack hitting and getting the right trigger can't be that high. 

[qoob]

1 hour ago, cptRamires said:

Yasunori  can chardge for 1 ap  with Asami combine it with Emisar and he get Fast, so now he has 3 ap  and charde for 1 AP.  You can make 2 chardges in a row and with his triggers it will be 6 attacks.  hooded Rider can make 6 attacks mmmm  in 3 turns/ But more over if first target  and second was in Asami  aura then dat hourse can make 3 chardges and that will be awesome  8 attacks in 1 turn, so now pls tell me who  potentialy will make more damage ? 

 

First of all you have to play Asami to have this option. 2nd you always have to have Asami in 4" to Yasunori to pull that off. 3rd you have to spend a lot of cards to hit the right triggers. 4th that's 22 soulstones only for this? Nekima is only 13(?) to use your comparison. 

Yasunori is good but there are similar models in other factions too. 

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, Tapdancer said:

Back on topic

Yasunori is very strong which you would expect for 13 stones (nobody in their right mind doesn't tale Recall Training with it).

As has already been noted Armour and incorporeal reduce it's effectiveness.

I've had the odd game where it does amazing things but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Yasunori is a counter to Nekima (the 10" charge is great) but is unlikely that when they clash Yasunori will take down Nekima on it's own due to armour and soul stones.

Nekima doesn't have armour though.