Broken Balance

[cptRamires]

Hi Everyone,

In my club we have few games after January Errata and including new models. I need to notice 
that few last realized miniatures are tottaly imbalansed - which ruin game balance 

"Yasunori" - this enforcer with 12 cc is totaly better then any other 
model. He is faster, deal more damage then other heavy hitters with same 
"game role"... I play Neverborn and my best heavy hitter is Nekima but she 
cost 13, not so fast, deal less damage. 

Another Overpowered model from new book is "Witchling Thrall" - compare it with Teddy - Thrall is much better 
but cost 9 !!! Have these models pass game tests ? All our club players are totaly dissapointed because such miniatures ruin game, it is permanently in all TT rosters, all TT games just because it is far 
ahead over other models in faction... 

And now another "good" news from Errata, I totally cannot understand why Ironsides and Misaki become so strong.  Both are hard counter for  ML models, now you can kill yourself just hitting Ironsides and in case if you didn't took models with Ca and Sh actions which can make threat to master with 14 wounds - you auto loose, she just run in to your models and kill everything, then got heal

Misaki even more overpowered right now, Really from dat Errata seems like there are only two masters in TT faction (Asami and Misaki)  other are even not close to these two stars. Lets look more closely - Master with DF6  and WP 7  which can be increased to WP 8 by adding "Servant of Dragons" and even WP 9 if Oiran is near. Then she add "Disguise" Upgrade and cannjot be charged and finaly last one for example "on wings of wind"... So what we have now - master DF6 WP9, which cannot be charged and have bullet proff  More over if soul stones is over she have + to DF - that is great, But now she has 0 action "Dealy Dance" which allow her  to push 3!!! after enemy model ends walk action within 2 of her, so here is the question - who can heart her? I don't mean lucky flip I mean really who is a treat for her?  the answer is - only models with 3 ml range which can walk to her and after that make 1-2 attacks, not so many models in game... Probably models with shooting attacks can but in my faction (Neverborn) there are not so many such models plus bullet proof  and + flip to DF... Ca vs WP -  vs 9 WP!  ridiculous. I can understand such great defence on model which is "tank"  but She is one of the greates heavy hitters in the game. Really have these been tested ? Just Take Yasunori + Misaki and while you try catch one of them they two will kill key models who have ML range 2 or SH attack which can pass through DF6 with +  and that's all - after that she became immposible to hit. 

Also I as neverborn player expected in this errata that our "weak" models will get buff... Actually I mean Barbaros and Candy -  both henchmns who rarely in game.  Barbaros is great, but he cost 10! Compare it with Guild Jurde or Francisco pls? both cheaper and better.  Candy - no commentrs at all - yes her abilities is good, but CA 5  while you let appear in game models with WP9 (Misaki or Perdita) pfff.  And her  manipulative is lower then even on Chagelenig but she is henchman with cost of 9 !!!

And last one is "Silurid"  7CC  cost  for what ?  useless model, when these will get buff ?  

Have anyone ideas or suggestions how to play against overbuffed models ?  

[Joel]

You're joking, right?

[cptRamires]

Actually no, Really what alternative TT  right now have ?   While 2 masters are much stronger then other and both masters take with them Yasunori. 

[santaclaws01]

In regards to your Yasunori complaints, do you just not know about the Hooded Rider? Same base stat line, same cost, better defenses, better damage, can move around your models. 

The Witchling Thrall is not better than Teddy, there's really no argument to be made here.

Yes, Ironsides and Misaki got some pretty significant boosts with the errata, but Neverborn isn't lacking in ways to get around their defensive tricks. Retributions Eye prevents defensive triggers and Ironsides isn't all that durable. And really if you're having so much trouble with trying to kill them just don't? Ignore them and go for the crew.

Candy and Barbaros both have their place. They're specialists to the generalist Francisco.

Silurids are hands down top 3 scheme runners in the entire game.

[cptRamires]

Yasunori  can chardge for 1 ap  with Asami combine it with Emisar and he get Fast, so now he has 3 ap  and charde for 1 AP.  You can make 2 chardges in a row and with his triggers it will be 6 attacks.  hooded Rider can make 6 attacks mmmm  in 3 turns/ But more over if first target  and second was in Asami  aura then dat hourse can make 3 chardges and that will be awesome  8 attacks in 1 turn, so now pls tell me who  potentialy will make more damage ? 

 

[Ludvig]

Yasinori can't charge while engaged right? Maybe you could also take something with disguised of your own?

I would recommend mimic's blessing or something manipulative to drain their hand. Waldgeists have a great engagement range and a ability to protect them from charges. They might help as speed bumps.

[marke83]

Sorry I have no help to offer, but to me it just sounds like a limited meta environment. Certain elements seem strong, if the meta is one sided and skewed towards certain playstyles or models.

Pretty common in games. Diversity ftw!

[cptRamires]

Yes he can't charge while engaged, however  his first charge for 1 AP  it is potential 4 attacks  ML6  with  + to hit  and damage 3/4/5.   Actualy he have great chaces to kill  first target and get second charge.  All mentioned except manipulative are ignored due to his + to hit, he just got clear flip without +.  Ufortuanely not all models have manipulative and Opposet player is not idiot - he will charge model after it activated or other model without manipulative. yasunori have thrreat range 12 (10 CG + 2 meele range)  and flight so  he can choose whom to charge.

[cptRamires]

3 minutes ago, marke83 said:

Sorry I have no help to offer, but to me it just sounds like a limited meta environment. Certain elements seem strong, if the meta is one sided and skewed towards certain playstyles or models.

Pretty common in games. Diversity ftw!

In our club we have all factions presented. And most game masters. As for me I have all neverborns (except Lucius and Collodi? Collodi is next to purchase)

[Joel]

I apologise for my earlier flippant response, but I found it hard to comprehend your argument.  If Malifaux games were won by damage output you may have a case, but they aren't.

it sounds like your meta is still developing and that currently your local 10T players have found a style that you have yet to find a response to.  This situation is common in the game and it forces a mets to evolve and develop.  

Rest assured that there IS a solution in neverborn to it, and worry a bit less about perceived balance.  I believe, from your post, that you are getting frustrated with facing this, but currently it seems you are busy complaining rather than working on how to beat it.  This is a natural step in the process, but the sooner you can put it behind you, the better as you can then focus on how to get your faction to deal with the problem.

if the problem is being charged (and that does seem the core here) then neverborn is supremely equipped to avoid that happening.  I suggest you go through the faction and check out what works well against that.

as for silurids - they are frankly amazing at scoring VP, and this is what makes a model really shine. Other factions wish they had access to them!

[Joel]

Collodi btw is rather good in this situation, able to control enemy AP is powerful

[Ludvig]

Don't have my book but what's the WP on a Yasinori? Lilith might be able to screw with it. The TT boards may be able to give you competent advice on what usually counters them. It's fairly common for a few new models to be percieved as completely broken, some of them might be but there are likely ways to counter it.

Waldgeists are armour 2 and can have a 4" engagement range so you could set it up so that almost no matter where that Yasinori charges it will be engaged. The geists themselves would suffer 1/2/3 from that attack which seems manageable to me considering they are 7 wounds.

A doppleganger carrying useless duplications could set up her  to ml attacks and then use the discard from the upgrade to put Yassi at double negatives but I'm not sure if you're willing to put that kind of resouce investment into it.

[Seryjniak]

39 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

In regards to your Yasunori complaints, do you just not know about the Hooded Rider? Same base stat line, same cost, better defenses, better damage, can move around your models. 

The Witchling Thrall is not better than Teddy, there's really no argument to be made here.

Yes, Ironsides and Misaki got some pretty significant boosts with the errata, but Neverborn isn't lacking in ways to get around their defensive tricks. Retributions Eye prevents defensive triggers and Ironsides isn't all that durable. And really if you're having so much trouble with trying to kill them just don't? Ignore them and go for the crew.

Candy and Barbaros both have their place. They're specialists to the generalist Francisco.

Silurids are hands down top 3 scheme runners in the entire game.

While I'm not in the haven fall on my head boat I cannot agree with your statements sir. Hooded rider is crap compered to Yasunori - he doesnt fly, cannot make another model attack, isn't as AP efficient and most off all has no way of generating cards AND seeing what is in the deck (and changing it). One of my main opponents is T10 player and I fear Yasunori more then anything that T10 has to offer - not because he is OP - he is not but because he is prime example of crude and primitive game design - a auto include model that really will be in every T10 roster once he hits retail.

On the other hand Witchling Trall IS better then Teddy - he is cheeper, has great build in triggers.

Each to his own - I would not dismiss someone opinion that easily. Time will tell (and stats will show if T10 jump in the ranking or not)

[icebreaker]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Don't have my book but what's the WP on a Yasinori?

Yasinori have WP 6 + stubborn

[cptRamires]

Just now, Ludvig said:

Don't have my book but what's the WP on a Yasinori? Lilith might be able to screw with it. The TT boards may be able to give you competent advice on what usually counters them. It's fairly common for a few new models to be percieved as completely broken, some of them might be but there are likely ways to counter it.

Waldgeists are armour 2 and can have a 4" engagement range so you could set it up so that almost no matter where that Yasinori charges it will be engaged. The geists themselves would suffer 1/2/3 from that attack which seems manageable to me considering they are 7 wounds.

A doppleganger carrying useless duplications could set up her  to ml attacks and then use the discard from the upgrade to put Yassi at double negatives but I'm not sure if you're willing to put that kind of resouce investment into it.

WP 6 and stubborn,   It is hard to engage him because combination wit Emessary let him get fast from emissary and dat action also push model 4 in any direction so before charge he usually get pushed 4 and get fast. 

[Ludvig]

Sorry @Joel , I messed up your way of teaching by just splurting out suggestions. Slow day  

Funny you should mention silurids Ramires since I believe the Yasinori can't ignore LoS to charge them because of their silent rule so they should be really well equipped to gain vp in relative safety.

[Joel]

A jump in rankings will be more about which players decide to play 10T this year rather than about the power level of any one particular model.

lilith with trees to block los for charges and rooted condition works great btw, easily capable of neutering Yasanori in a single AP

[Phinn]

Hello @cptRamires

something I learnt from Dota - The best way to learn how to play against things you consider too strong is to play them yourself. This way you will find ways how to shut them down or just how difficult or situational they are.

[Ludvig]

1 minute ago, cptRamires said:

WP 6 and stubborn,   It is hard to engage him because combination wit Emessary let him get fast from emissary and dat action also push model 4 in any direction so before charge he usually get pushed 4 and get fast. 

Well geists have a 4" melee so if you are touching bases that push will not be enough.

[cptRamires]

I mean silirids are worst then Guups,  same shame runners but 4 cc   and can be spammed with Mother,  now with wisps  it can be done While Mother do other things... 

[Seryjniak]

1 minute ago, cptRamires said:

WP 6 and stubborn,   It is hard to engage him because combination wit Emessary let him get fast from emissary and dat action also push model 4 in any direction so before charge he usually get pushed 4 and get fast. 

But they are both 22 together so this is fair chunk of enemy list (lets say 3 for totem and we have like half of a list in 3 models)

[Ludvig]

Just now, Joel said:

A jump in rankings will be more about which players decide to play 10T this year rather than about the power level of any one particular model.

lilith with trees to block los for charges and rooted condition works great btw, easily capable of neutering Yasanori in a single AP

Don't they ignore LoS for charges or something?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well personally, since we are now in an era of aggressive errata, while I do not agree with most of the OPs points, I do personally think Yasunori is way better than just about any comparable costed models and should definitely be on the chopping block in June.

[Seryjniak]

1 minute ago, Joel said:

A jump in rankings will be more about which players decide to play 10T this year rather than about the power level of any one particular model.

Pro players jump into what has the best chance to put them in 1 place

[Joel]

Just now, Seryjniak said:

Pro players jump into what has the best chance to put them in 1 place

No they don't. They tend to play one faction very well due to excellent knowledge of their factions options and capabilities.  They get to the top because they consistently win games, not jump onto the latest hotness.