2017 Errata - a nightmare for the dreamer?

[saxcloud]

I'm new but I can't understand, there are new faq / errata ? Where I can find them? They removed daydream ability to give masque to the dreamer?

[Nikodemus]

You can find the usual latest errata & faq here:

https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux-faq-errata

They recently "pre-released" major errata for January 2017. I imagine they're screening through any obvious last minute typos and such before it gets added to the above link:

 

[LulleK]

Do you guys think the summoning upgrade still should cost 5ss? Other summoner masters get summoning for free, and for Dreamer it's expensive without really getting any benefits for the 5ss over others now.

[Tris]

Dreamer still needs no setup for his summons and summons out of thin air.

Compare that to the setup many ressers actually buy for stones in a Nicodem crew - Dogs, Mortimer, Emissary, Philipp & Nanny, additional upgrades..... and he still needs crows = stones

Granted, these models most of the time also serve another purpose and are just models you have on the field an can play with, but these are the costs other summoners pay for their ability, so dreamers upgrade seems expensive only at a first glance, imo.

[spooky_squirrel]

6 hours ago, LulleK said:

Do you guys think the summoning upgrade still should cost 5ss? Other summoner masters get summoning for free, and for Dreamer it's expensive without really getting any benefits for the 5ss over others now.

Some summoners do get their summoning "for free" (Ramos, Mechanical Rider, to use the faction I have the most practice with) on their base card while others have to pay for it (Sandeep). There is typically some kind of constraint on them that makes some set up necessary. Ramos absolutely requires a scrap marker to summon off of, and the only thing he's summoning with his baked-in summon are Steam Arachnids. These little dudes make for great scheme runners and lets Ramos play into virtually every strategy without worry (not Collect the Bounty, however). He can summon exactly one in with what's on his card. As soon as he wants more than one, costs go up. Summoning two spiders will require a high moderate and a stone, or a high moderate tome. Summoning three spiders requires a severe tome and a stone. And the spiders take damage when they come into play even if only one is summoned. Wipe out the hired crew, and he's no longer supported by aura buffs and can no longer kill/tank as reliably, because he cannot replace enforcers or henchmen.
Mechanical Rider summons 4SS Arcanist non-totem, non-effigy constructs, and if the Rider lives to Turn 3, doesn't require a tome in hand or off the deck. These guys essentially come from nowhere, but they're limited to models that aren't going to be doing the kind of work that summoned Nightmare models can.

Sandeep pays for being able to summon, and he's restricted to a maximum of three Gamin, minion models that aren't going to do a lot by themselves. Sure one of them is Banasuva, who can get a lot of work done when being used by a skilled player. However, he's having to stone for the mask or have a high mask in hand every time he wants to summon, and because of the way his summons are set up, he's limited to three: one that cannot use attack actions, one that cannot cheat, and one that cannot move/push.

6 hours ago, Tris said:

Granted, these models most of the time also serve another purpose and are just models you have on the field an can play with, but these are the costs other summoners pay for their ability, so dreamers upgrade seems expensive only at a first glance, imo.

Those other abilities are key. Ramos has access to upgrades that give him additional actions that create a zone in which his spiders are actually dangerous and not just a nuisance. On his base card he can shoot into combat without scattering, or more importantly, blow up his own constructs to cause massive amounts of damage to things around them, without targeting them. Sandeep has so many other things that he can do that I'm better off playing him like he doesn't have summoning ability in learning games so that I can remember to use him for what he's good at, and only summon in what he needs when he needs it in practice and competitive games.

 

Similarly, Dreamer has other things that he does, and figuring those things out is where the "play him like he doesn't have summon" practice comes in handy. As they're figured out, work from his basic summoning, see how it feels to have LCB pop out every turn or so as he summons in things that can interfere with your opponent and give you activation control to keep from committing Coppelius or Teddy too early. Then factor that into how much the Nightmare summoning upgrade changes what he does, what he hires, and how the order of operations go. It's a significantly more profound difference in his game than the difference between Command or Visions Sandeep and non-summoning Sandeep.

[santaclaws01]

If Dreams of Pain does get changed, it won't be until next year at the earliest. Have to give time to figure out if summoning dreamer is underperforming (which I doubt he will be) and then time to figure out how exactly to change him.

Though, if summoning Dreamer did get changed, I'd like to see Accomplice moved from Playtime to Dreams of Pain and reduce Playtime's cost by 1 rather than reducing the cost of Dreams of Pain. That would work more into the summon one model playstyle because you can summon what you need in, buff it with Empty Night and/or Playtime, reduce your waking, and then accomplice into his new friend.

[Kadeton]

9 hours ago, LulleK said:

Do you guys think the summoning upgrade still should cost 5ss? Other summoner masters get summoning for free, and for Dreamer it's expensive without really getting any benefits for the 5ss over others now.

Dreamer also gets his summoning for free! You only have to pay extra if you want to summon things other than Alps and Daydreams.

Dreamer is fairly unique in his choice of summoning - other summoners (even the ones with a similarly limited range of options, like Ramos and Seamus) can't take upgrades to increase their summoning pool, and nobody else gets the option to summon Enforcers.

[LulleK]

Ah I get how you guys think. And I just realized that Dreamer actually still have access to one free mask from his summonable totem, and that is still more than other summoners get. So maybe it's actually still worth the 5ss.

[Four_N_Six]

You might have to put a little more into it to pull off a summon, but Dreamer still has some of the stronger summoning in the game, with access to Enforcers.  5SS is a high cost for an upgrade, but if you use that 1 free  a turn and get a twin, or Coppellius, I'd consider that worth it.  He has other useful stuff to do on his turn, anyways.  Summon an enforcer and then use his tactical action to buff your crew for their turn, or take a couple of shots at nearby enemies.

[Bengt]

21 hours ago, Kadeton said:

nobody else gets the option to summon Enforcers.

Yan Lo can in a way.

[Joel]

8 minutes ago, Bengt said:

Yan Lo can in a way.

Hardly comparable given the time frames and resource allocation differences, nevermind the flexibility.  

Dreamer is still the best summoner in the game despite this change - it just means that this is not the only thing we'll see him do every turn from now on. Which is a good thing.

[Bengt]

3 minutes ago, Joel said:

Hardly comparable given the time frames and resource allocation differences, nevermind the flexibility.  

Dreamer is still the best summoner in the game despite this change - it just means that this is not the only thing we'll see him do every turn from now on. Which is a good thing.

I made no claims about the overall usefulness of Reliquary or Yan Lo's power level in general, just pointed out that dreamer isn't the only one that can summon enforcers, so what's your point?

[Joel]

39 minutes ago, Bengt said:

I made no claims about the overall usefulness of Reliquary or Yan Lo's power level in general, just pointed out that dreamer isn't the only one that can summon enforcers, so what's your point?

That your point was a little pedantic - yan lo's ancestor-restoration mechanic don't really equate true summoning