2017 Errata - a nightmare for the dreamer?

[Tris]

How are you all feeling about the new daydreams/dreamer synergy after the 2017 errata hit the net?

 

Oh, and I guess the Lucius buff concerns you Neverborn too, so how about that?^^

 

I thought it might be useful to have a place to discuss

[santaclaws01]

Not gonna mention the BBS change?

[Tris]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Not gonna mention the BBS change?

You did now

In all honesty, I´m no Neverborn player but I quite like a good discussion thread regarding such big changes, so Iwent ahead and did one.

 

So, what`s your opinion on the errata then?

[tuktuken]

IMO - It's very good and reasonable. 

As for Neverborn I'm really happy to have new Lucius - still I don't think he will outshine Collodi as master giving out actions, but he's now worth a try. Black Blood Shaman beacomes much better now and I see planty of options for him. 
cuddle of Rooster Riders and Loco/Francisco Box also comes for good for us I suppose

And Dreamer deserverd his change. He's still good master, but summoning tons of good models in one turn will become more costly, which is good

[sinistercats]

So we feel like he'll be hiring more crew and summoning 1-2 models? That's kinda how I figured I'd just play him. Looking at the rest of his card I feel like there's a ton of support that's not really been looked at in the wonky "Chompy" vs "Summoning" divide we all seemed to talk about. Looking forward to it. 

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, tuktuken said:

And Dreamer deserverd his change. He's still good master, but summoning tons of good models in one turn will become more costly, which is good

This is the part that's the kicker for him. Once all of his pieces are in play (Tannen for the Mask bonus, Daydream sacrifice), he can summon a Teddy on a 13 for 1AP. Without spending stones, he could do that three times in a turn, then turn into LCB. Add in Widow Weaver and by the bottom of the turn, Dreamer still has a nearly full hand for cheating (or cycling bad cards out of the deck), has re-entered play with min waking, with three serious beaters that need to be dealt with near full health, and an opponent still reeling from LCB keeping the Teddies safe by engaging/killing the most immediate threats to the wounded bears.

Is this scenario the be-all-end-all? Not at all. An experienced or canny opponent can deal with this Nightmare scenario against a less experienced Dreamer player. On even playing fields? I don't know. I suspect that it would cause the person playing against the Dreamer to focus on scoring their 10 VP and potentially ending the game in a draw.

By making the bonus expire on summoning, it forces the Dreamer to do what every other summoner has had to: manage resources. Other summoners have varying constraints that limit their summoning potential. Asami has the flicker condition, Sandeep can never summon and keep more than 3 Gamin, scrap or corpse markers must be discarded, soulstones must be spent, summoning is limited to [model], etc. He can still get that first Teddy with a 13 to give it fast without spending other resources, but the second Teddy is going to cost a soulstone or a 13. There's now more things to consider in assembling a Dreamer crew and running it from turn to turn.

[keget]

Dreamer could never summon 3 teddies in a turn.  Could only be done if he had a 13 or the red joker.  Tannen only made a  card be worth +2 so a 13 of crows is still just a 13 and not enough for a teddy.  Hope no one did that to you.

[Rabbitknight]

It changes his early game from sac, summon 3 to sac, summon, stone for 2 more. Once you have a force in play, he switches largely to support, summoning one model and dropping down waking to maintain. It makes him slightly more stone hungry, but that's not a bad thing for the game. 

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, keget said:

Dreamer could never summon 3 teddies in a turn.  Could only be done if he had a 13 or the red joker.  Tannen only made a  card be worth +2 so a 13 of crows is still just a 13 and not enough for a teddy.  Hope no one did that to you.

Ahh.. good catch. I'd have to check, I had a game where two popped out in one turn; it may have been twice only because he had had the 13 and the Red Joker in hand. 

[spooky_squirrel]

2 minutes ago, Rabbitknight said:

It changes his early game from sac, summon 3 to sac, summon, stone for 2 more. Once you have a force in play, he switches largely to support, summoning one model and dropping down waking to maintain. It makes him slightly more stone hungry, but that's not a bad thing for the game. 

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I play Arcanists primarily, and both Ramos and Sandeep burn through stones like nothing else. I've used Recharge Soulstone and other tricks to get stones back only to spend them almost immediately. One of the guys in my meta picked up Asami at GenCon and was in a similar boat when playing her as a summoner. That's probably the summoner that Dreamer most reminds me of: Asami. I've only played one game against Horror Molly and none against Nico, so I haven't a lot of experience with their kind of summoning across the table from me.

[Rabbitknight]

Dreamer used to be entirely non-dependant on suits of cards in hand/stones. With a fairly broad summon pool it made him the most efficient summoner in game. His only resource needed was "any high card."

Now he is more in line with other summoners. Molly needs enemies and Crows (unless summoning for effect which is a thing, then she just needs Crows) Nico needs Crows and Corpses. Kirai needs friendly wounds and Crows. They've all got something. Now dreamer needs Masks, and that's still pretty damn efficient.

[keget]

I think I may be more likely to take Me. Tannen now.  On turn 1 I often aim to summon 2 and walk once.  One DD and a stone or 5 is not so bad.  Turn 2 is the turn I often summon 3.  Again use one DD and a stone or 5 is not so bad.  Then 3rd summon may drop down to just a new DD.  So if I can't get a 5 it will cost 2 extra stones that I could have saved and maybe just a DD instead of a IM or stitched.  Not so bad...Levi, Collette, roosters, austringers, and belles all got it much worse.

[keget]

Honestly GG 2016 hurt dreamer more with the change to neutralize the leader.

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, keget said:

Dreamer could never summon 3 teddies in a turn.  Could only be done if he had a 13 or the red joker.  Tannen only made a  card be worth +2 so a 13 of crows is still just a 13 and not enough for a teddy.  Hope no one did that to you.

You just need to time it to reshuffle between summons. 

[Lucidicide]

5 hours ago, keget said:

Honestly GG 2016 hurt dreamer more with the change to neutralize the leader.

Yeah, but that's gone in GG17

[sinistercats]

2 hours ago, Aaron said:

Yeah, but that's gone in GG17

YAY!!!

 

[daniello_s]

8 hours ago, keget said:

Not so bad...Levi, Collette, roosters, austringers, and belles all got it much worse.

Aye. Still Daydream is very good option to push your Nightmare models and sacrifice itself so you can get better model on the table.

[Four_N_Six]

I believe they said that schemes were getting a little tweak as well, so that's another factor we might have to consider.

I'll say this coming from my preference of Chompy Dreamer over Summoning Dreamer, but I don't think it's an issue.  I just now started playing Ressers, so I might be missing something, but Kirai doesn't have a way to add in the  she needs for summoning without using Stones.  So this is just getting Dreamer a little bit closer to the level other summoners are on, but he's still way up there when it comes to power and versatility.  I don't know the exact wording on the new Daydream's ability, but I'm assuming he can't get multiple masks for multiple actions if he sacrifices multiple Daydreams before he activates.  That's still a guarantee summon (assuming you have a high enough value in hand) at least once a turn.  And when you're bringing in a Stitched or one of the Twins, or the Bandersnatch, I'd call that a fair deal still for the little guy.

[Insidiously Mad]

Dreamer is by far my most played Master and I am totally fine with this change. Will occasionally be annoying but for the most part isn't that bad. Also makes Tannen more worthwhile with him (which I never really rated highly) and makes getting card draw in more useful too. Will possibly change my lists slightly (not as necessary to start with 2-3 day dreams) but overall think he is still very very strong. 

Change to Lucius and BBS however are AMAZING! BBS finally works the way we all wanted him to. And Lucius was already a lot of fun, but now he does everything far easier than before. I am way happier with our faction than I was before so overall it is a win for me.

Seriously though I am so, so excited to get Lucius on the table 

[D_acolyte]

I am waiting for a Lucius nightmare edition box or one that is better for neverborn. As for the Daydream thing, I will take Pack as a counter on the Dreamer now otherwise meh I normally only summon 1 model a turn. Also it does not stop you from summoning a ton of alps as it is after the manifest nightmare action not the day dream summoning action.

[Ergonomic Cat]

I'm also fine with the Dreamer change.  It's extremely reasonable.  I still wish that Daydreams could have granted Daydreams +1, and reduce daydream by 1 to add a mask, but it's just fine.

You still sac a daydream for whatever you want.  Then you either use a mask in hand or spend a stone.  Just like everyone else in the game.   I honestly felt that the Daydream mask was bonkers good, so I was 100% unsurprising to see it.

[keget]

Great call on the free mask if I want to summon an alp or 2.  They may see the table a lot more now.

[Thana.]

Dreamer is also my most played and I think the change is fine. Makes him more stone hungry, as noted.

I think he was tied for top summoner with Kirai before and now he's a little below her probably but still one of the best. I think hiring daydreams has gone down in value unless you plan to hire a bunch of nightmares (I usually don't).  

Agree that card draw goes up in value for Dreamer (it was already very valuable, but also very hard to fit into lists since dreamer crews usually had 15ish stones worth of summoning support locked in at the outset). 

[Mxbedlam]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:46 PM, D_acolyte said:

I am waiting for a Lucius nightmare edition box or one that is better for neverborn. As for the Daydream thing, I will take Pack as a counter on the Dreamer now otherwise meh I normally only summon 1 model a turn. Also it does not stop you from summoning a ton of alps as it is after the manifest nightmare action not the day dream summoning action.

OMG See this I would love. He could have the Doppleganger and 3 Changelings in his box. And they'd all be in mid transformation. I'd love it

[necroon]

I'm rather turned off by it, myself. Between 5 stones for Dreams of Pain, High Cards, 1 wound summons, balancing Pleasent Dreams, Stoning for suits, etc. It's not worth it for me. I don't like support Dreamer and I find "Shooty Dreamer" to be pretty awful. As far as Lord Chompy Bits goes I prefer him less than Dreamer aesthetically so LCB style play isn't for me. 

Dreamer is far too squishy against blast markers and the like as is and his 6" bubble of effectiveness makes it hard to play him aggressively in certain matchups.

With Lucius' buff I needed room in my case anyways, though, so I'm just taking Dreamer out. Hopefully Neverborn gets a real summoner some day: not one that has to pay 5 stones for the luxury of doing so. It's too bad: I own an original metal and a Nightmare of Dreamer/LCB and have absolutely no desire to play him in a competitive setting with these changes: Not as long as Sonia, Sandeep, and Wong are as common as they are. I'd rather of seen him rewritten: upgrades and all. If nothing else I at least no longer feel compelled to buy another Dreamer Crew box for Alps (having skipped them in metal). Just my thoughts on the matter.