2017 Errata - Dawn of Lucius ^^

[Ludvig]

@Tris I think Lucius can obey anyone with his walk-horror thing so you can have Francisco move alongside him to keep him within 2" when he activates.

[Tris]

5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@Tris I think Lucius can obey anyone with his walk-horror thing so you can have Francisco move alongside him to keep him within 2" when he activates.

Ok, so it`s "just" that - as I thought^^

I don`t think that that`s really the best way to use it, but that`s everyones decision I guess

[wizuriel]

Fransisco can't keep up with Lucius if he walks to much. Once he passes the horror duel he can't take it again  for commanding presence

 

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Fransisco can't keep up with Lucius if he walks to much. Once he passes the horror duel he can't take it again  for commanding presence

 

Even with commanding presence you really shouldn't be walking your master too much and Francisco has a longer walk so it shouldn't be hard to keeo him nearby. Sometimes you go charging off and realize that you're 2,5 inches from the nearest model so you cab't buff anything next turn. At such times it's handy to have another positioning tool.

[Ludvig]

42 minutes ago, Tris said:

Ok, so it`s "just" that - as I thought^^

I don`t think that that`s really the best way to use it, but that`s everyones decision I guess

What would be a better way? It combos really well with Francisco having companion so Lucius could go somewhere and bring Frabcisco alobg to then companion and flurry on something.

 

Edit: I'm actually really struggling to find somethig better than letting one of the faction's most highly rated models use three of his best abilities for maximum effect, please give me even more uses!

[Tris]

yeah, it`s not bad, but the issue is, I wouldn`t say that Franc is needed in a Lucius crew - sure it works, sure it can be strong, but it sounded like he had some big plan with Franc, hence my question

If you decide to take Francisco, that`s cool and good way to use Lucius Commanding presence, all depending on playstyle - no "better way" I know of, just wanted to know if there is more to it than I thought initially.

So in the end it just shows again that Lucius is much more flexible now, and that`s a good thing.

[trikk]

I think its better to Enfratente than to walk. I also think a lot of non-minions will work with Lucius now

[Ludvig]

15 minutes ago, trikk said:

I think its better to Enfratente than to walk. I also think a lot of non-minions will work with Lucius now

Ah, forgot about that one. That is a better use

[EnternalVoid]

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Not changed a ton? Now he can actually affect your entire list with his tricks instead of relying on minion. Used to be I needed an ap and a flip to let a couple of minions interact but since my opponents knew I could only buff them they went heavily for them. Now I can do that without an ap and it affects any friendly models.

Lucius just gained an entire ap and his lists gained a ton of flexibility. That's a lot.

I think the problem here might be our views of things and playstyles.  To me, you would have to literally take abilities/actions away and then replace them with something else or change some core concept of him to really change him a lot.  He is the same old Lucius just fine tuned.  He will be easier to use and less card demanding, which are nice, but he does the same tricks just better. 

My lists with him are unlikely to change a ton as I already took a flexible approach to him.  To me Lucius did not gain an AP, he just gained another (0) which is always good, and rather than tons of flexibility he gained ease of use due to the Horror Duel dropping to a 12 and the TN for issue command to a 12.  But as I said, I think this all comes down to a difference of how we view things and how we approach our play styles which is not bad in any regard.  It is good that so many people are excited by Lucius, and Honestly I am glad they did not change him a ton *in my opinion here* as it gives me a good feeling for future updates.

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

I think the problem here might be our views of things and playstyles.  To me, you would have to literally take abilities/actions away and then replace them with something else or change some core concept of him to really change him a lot.  He is the same old Lucius just fine tuned.  He will be easier to use and less card demanding, which are nice, but he does the same tricks just better. 

My lists with him are unlikely to change a ton as I already took a flexible approach to him.  To me Lucius did not gain an AP, he just gained another (0) which is always good, and rather than tons of flexibility he gained ease of use due to the Horror Duel dropping to a 12 and the TN for issue command to a 12.  But as I said, I think this all comes down to a difference of how we view things and how we approach our play styles which is not bad in any regard.  It is good that so many people are excited by Lucius, and Honestly I am glad they did not change him a ton *in my opinion here* as it gives me a good feeling for future updates.

Yeah, major difference in perceptions. A small change is  like the rotten belles dropping a single point in their Ca, they still beat everyone's wp easily so nothing much changed.

This is big in my eyes since they changed several abilities. No one was complaining about Lucius' feel or concept since they have been cemented from his henchman days. Changing that would have been awful and unwanted so that can't even be on the scale. Complaints were about that he was really hard to get good mileage out of. If he became playable in a tournament setting I consider it a big change.  His signature ability issue command changed in what it does and who it can affect as well as all the triggers available and the fact that it now has an auto trigger. Elite training also got a major overhaul changing in both area of effect, who it affects and actual effect it has.

[trikk]

I think the Lure change is a bit more impactful than we expect. This means models with Wp6 have a higher chance of success and we can actually bait sever cards. The TN increase means you`re likely to drop a moderate to get it off on friendlies.

 

I think Lucius is not great, but he becomes viable. There`s a lot less probability you will paralyze your whole crew.

[Eclipse]

Holy smoke. I just got my Black Friday order and when I got home there was a second, shining Christmas present waiting for me... Thanks, Wyrd!

[Masquer]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Vilicate]

Pretty stoked about the changes to Lucius.  Can't wait to pull off a potential 3 attack Executioner activation from Lucius with from like 29"+ away.

I do feel like I'm better off changing the way that I play him though; he definitely feels better at scheme running now rather than just blasting the piss out of people with riflemen.  I don't feel like I've experienced the relative hardship of other folks with Lucius, as he's always worked just fine for me (he was just a little bit more resource intensive than playing someone similar, like Collodi).

[Gnomezilla]

Speaking of Papa Loco, has anyone tried running the recruiter alongside him, deputizing him, and turning a crap hand into them strolling out of Papa's explosion radius unharmed three times in a row?

Well, poot. Checked the recruiter's card and he can't save himself with card discard. You'd have to have some way of passing the recruiter's damage from the blast off onto something else.

Tee hee!

[Ludvig]

24 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Speaking of Papa Loco, has anyone tried running the recruiter alongside him, deputizing him, and turning a crap hand into them strolling out of Papa's explosion radius unharmed three times in a row?

Well, poot. Checked the recruiter's card and he can't save himself with card discard. You'd have to have some way of passing the recruiter's damage from the blast off onto something else.

Tee hee!

It's almost like the designers extremely intentionally didn't want you to do that by not even making it possible with two recruiters  

[trikk]

1 hour ago, Gnomezilla said:

Speaking of Papa Loco, has anyone tried running the recruiter alongside him, deputizing him, and turning a crap hand into them strolling out of Papa's explosion radius unharmed three times in a row?

Well, poot. Checked the recruiter's card and he can't save himself with card discard. You'd have to have some way of passing the recruiter's damage from the blast off onto something else.

Tee hee!

You can always flip a lot of 8ts. If you have El Mayor, thats just 6s

 

But I like the Recruiter idea. You can prevent Papa Loco being blown to bits in the middle of your crew.

[LunarSol]

17 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

the fact that Austringers are pretty much an auto-include x 2 suggests they probably needed to be Cuddled a little..

FWIW, ran a couple games with the standard crew to see how the changes affect it.  It breaks up the list nicely without feeling like it invalidates much.

I suspect double austringer will go away, but a single one is still very good.  The bird has excellent cleanup options for finishing off HtK and the like and deliver orders is still very strong.

Francisco is absolutely fine; Papa would be considerably less so, but Numb to the World makes him far less of a liability.  He's got a place, but its far less auto include and more of an option.

Death Marshal may be the biggest loser, but the bomb in the box is still strong and he's still quite good at removing problems temporarily.  There's a build for him, just probably not the Sonnia/Perdita standard anymore.  I'd certainly love to see him at 5 stones.

The net result though is 12-20 stones that are up for grabs.  Dropping the DM and Austringer (and maybe Papa) creates a lot of room to fit in some of our new toys like Reporters, the Emissary, Debt/Numb, Phiona, Abuela, and Reporters.  The errata certainly created a gap, but we've got some really nice toys these days to fill it.

[Ludvig]

Death marshals were never priced to be abused like that so this change hardly warrants a reduction in points.

They are expensive because they can pinebox all sorts of stuff and that is a powerful ability. You can still pinebox Sonnia to let your emmissary copy flameburst for example. You can also still bury a large number of really scary opponents and keep them out of the game permanently.

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Death marshals were never priced to be abused like that so this change hardly warrants a reduction in points.

They are expensive because they can pinebox all sorts of stuff and that is a powerful ability. You can still pinebox Sonnia to let your emmissary copy flameburst for example. You can also still bury a large number of really scary opponents and keep them out of the game permanently.

I disagree.  DM attacks are a scary boogieman but DMS get killed so easily that if you boxed something important any half decent beater takes it off the table in one activation and the model pops back out.  The only competitive lists you saw them in were when they were there to box papa.  Our 2 best six slot options basically just got Cuddled.  

[trikk]

Well, I had a game with Sonnia vs Dreamer with 2 Teddies. I took 2 DMs and Mark for Death. Hilarity ensued. If DMs would go to 7 Wds I`d think they would be great

[Cadaverousbirth]

I think that's a big thing about perspective on model's strengths. Death Marshalls are Good but not Great. Austringers went from Amazeballs to Great. 

Roosters went from OMGWOW to Great. Belles went from OPcrazysmackaroons to Great. That works out pretty good to me. 

[Lord J]

I am really excited about Guardians. They can fill a gap in Guild on "reliable melee minions" ( competing with Thralls, or can they mix well together?). McCabe, Lucius and Lady J can make a good use of them (apart from Hoffman, ofc)

[JDAntoine]

2 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I disagree.  DM attacks are a scary boogieman but DMS get killed so easily that if you boxed something important any half decent beater takes it off the table in one activation and the model pops back out.  The only competitive lists you saw them in were when they were there to box papa.  Our 2 best six slot options basically just got Cuddled.  

1 hour ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

I think that's a big thing about perspective on model's strengths. Death Marshalls are Good but not Great. Austringers went from Amazeballs to Great. 

Roosters went from OMGWOW to Great. Belles went from OPcrazysmackaroons to Great. That works out pretty good to me. 

 

From my perspective, the Death Marshal just lost more reason to be in your crew as the other models. It's not so much that the DM needs to be cheaper now, but I do think a small buff to the Pine Box is allowed for the simple reason that the utility effect of the Pine Box has become more limited.

As said in another topic or even previous page, I think it's worth keeping the Death Marshal at 6SS but his Pine Box could now go to either Ca 6 or melee rng 2 to give him just a little bit of insentive to be part of a crew. In addition it would also feel slightly logical to me both lore and gamewise because the Death Marshals are deemed very effective at their job, gained a massive power at a massive cost and to me Ml 5, Rg 5, Ca 5 with ranges of 1, 10 and 1. 

I'll be honest here and say that I'll continue to play Frank with practically all my crews, Papa for the ranged crews who want him and Austringers because they are allround cash. Lucius is added to out mix of Masters and that's just incredible. When I'm now looking at a Death Marshal however I lost the prime reason to include him without a small compensation. 

So from the design and lore standpoint I'd ask, are Death Marshals as competent as their lore makes them out to be?
Ml 5, Rg 5, Ca 5 does not seem that competent and neither do the treath ranges of this attack. Where the simple Union Miner and Rooster Rider simply threat more on their Cg aswell...
- With this in mind my suggestion would be to have the Pine Box Rg increase from 1 to 2 in the next errata. If only for the size of the 'weapon' and lost utility in Papa and Frank. 
 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Offensive burying is as good or better than paralyzing. They are not going to make a 6ss minion have an auto paralyze attack that can be used on a charge an attack stat of 6.

I could however see potentially giving Lady J/ the Judge and upgrade that could only be taken on them that could give some additional range and the  icon to a pine box attack.