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January 2017 Errata


Lucidicide

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Stark, you're correct that at this point Lady J in addition to other wave 1 masters needs something, but not what you suggest. What you suggest would basically recreate the Leveticus they Cuddled. We don't need that back in the game. Nor should she get more anti undead tech. She has it in massively high weak dmg and the ability to deny markers, in addition to flames of the pit, which is in line with the flavor the other guild masters get. Giving in to what you suggest would basically mean the Ressers need not try to apply if there are guild players with lady J What she and other wave 1 masters need is more interesting things to do with their AP.

Right now her choices are position for attack, or attack. That's not that interesting, and given that without the brutal emissary taxi, which solves her mobility issues, and the recruiter solves her durability issues, she can get blocked off from making the charges she wants, which is frustrating for her, but encourages interaction with the opponent. She needs something that allows her to still have a meaningful effect on the game when she doesn't attack, which should encourage but not require Marshal's. 

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so, your Perdita can`t hit him with df 3 or 4, early in turn?

So, you think players for Tara are hand curves?
 

14 minutes ago, Tris said:

did you even read her lore? Why should she fight ever again for the Arcanists?

I am, and you? Remember Johan? Almost the same story, but he is merc and M&SU.
 

21 minutes ago, Tris said:

if they where mostly used for delivering orders, then you seem to be blissfully unaffected by the cuddle, so why the fuss?

No fuss, just note.

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8 minutes ago, Stark said:

So, you think players for Tara are hand curves?
-> excuse me, might be a misunderstanding, but what do you mean, by players are hand curves?

I am, and you? Remember Johan? Almost the same story, but he is merc and M&SU.
->  but Johan is not best friends with the head of the guilds propaganda papers, I´m just saying that she doesn`t need the foundry trait imo, but everyone has own opionions :)

No fuss, just note.

-> it is a cuddle, no argument here - but why do you bring it up when it doesn`t change much for how you used Austringers in the past?#

Deliver orders is completely unaffected by the changes, and you used to focus for the 18" range without los and cover - now you walk and shoot for a 16" range and have to put a little effort into thinking about the Austringers placement, again, imo that`s no problem for the Austringers or Guild as a faction.

 

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I am going to disagree with you a bit on some of this.

5 hours ago, Stark said:

Well, I think I should copy-past my post again.

Nothing beast
I want to mention that the Beast is already a very solid model, and you want to give him the second upgrade and the ability to use soulstones? Isn't it to much? I tried to play two games with new nothing beast and it's overpowered now, even my Perdita can't run through his Df + prevent flips + 0ss upgrade. Whose bright idea was to give him "henchman"?

While I will admit I was surprised by this chance I am not sure the Nothing Beast was that much of a beast before hand.  I mean he was not bad, but his value was questionable outside of Tara with other Outcast Masters.  It really was his 0ss upgrade that was his only saving grace more often than not.  Now as a Henchmen he is much more interesting but I do have a slight concern with his 0ss upgrade now on him.  I kind of wish if they had been 'balancing' him they would have balanced him and the Void Shield so it was a 1ss upgrade now that he can use SS for prevention.  I would love to hear the playtesters reason and dig through their data, not because I think they were wrong but I would love to listen to the reasonings, progression to this, and debates.  That would be an interesting read/discussion.

Now I am going to disagree here that we know that it is OP as several games is hardly a lot of information to really grasp that matter.  Soulstones and his Void Shield are both limited resources in the game and his Defense stat varies.  Unless the Nothing Beast player is dropping his most of his hand on his first activation, we are talking 4+ cards, then his defense is not really that high.  Even with half the hand gone you are looking at only a Df6, sure it is good but a lot of models with Df6 are nailed all the time.  It is not till he gets to Df8+ does models like Perdita really lose their advantage and at that point they only have one or less cards in hand.  They are completely at the mercy of their deck and I have dragged down plenty of Nothing Beasts in this state as I often still have cards left myself.  Being mindful of your resources and knowing what you can put to the task and what you cannot is key.  With before the Nothing Beast often kept the Void Shield for a single big hit or when it was almost dead and needed to stop that one attack to try and survive it out a bit longer.  Now with SS it has another resource to burn to try and stay in.  What this creates is an interesting paradox for the Nothing Beast player.  It means if they get hit early before they can drop a lot of cards they might burn SS to minimize the damage so it makes hitting them when they have a lot of cards actually more valuable as you can make them burn their limited pool faster.

It does mean though that Guild might have to be more mindful of are attacks that target Wp, as the Nothing Beast stat there is constant and while not bad is not very high.  If they vent cards to get the Df up then it means they likely have less to protect their Wp which might be less than Df by that point.  Both Nellie and Dade could mess with the Nothing Beast.  Both of them have plenty that target Wp, get around Incorporeal, can give it slow making it a lot less fearsome, and push it around. 

 

5 hours ago, Stark said:

 Phiona Gage

She needs the ” foundry” characteristic ) Actually before I saw her stat card I was pretty sure that she is the “foundry”. It’s about the lore)

Well one thing to point out here is she has no interaction with Foundry.  Foundry is the Rail/Metal Crew/group led by Rail Boss Mei Feng.  Phiona was a miner, not a rail worker so she would never had been one of Mei Feng's bunch.  Foundry is Mei Feng's subset with in the M&SU.  So Lore wise she never had anything to do with the Foundry.  Now if your argument was M&SU there would be more grounds as she was likely a card carrying member.  Thing is I am pretty sure she lost her place due to after the accident's her having those pouts of anger and later you know, murdering their operatives.  Johan was an under the table matter, all done quiet and ended up being a surprise when it was Johan that came out on top.  You know Nellie did not let Phiona's matter get hushed up, she likely even... spiced up the story with her account.  Now the M&SU are not to keen on their members killing each other, but in Johan's case it was done out of sight and to pursuit it would me admitting you sent people to deal with him.  In addition, Johan has nowhere to go, so he had stated a a miner and he does a side business of Mercing to pad his pockets.  And to stay a miner of good graces often means having to keep paying your M&SU dues and keep your membership.  He is not an arcanist, just a merc that is part of the Union.  So Lore wise Phiona has no reason to be Foundry from lack of contact with Mei Feng and she has no reason to be M&SU because she has completely cut her ties with the Union.  Got to pay your dues if you want to be a Union Man.
 

5 hours ago, Stark said:

Austringer

It’s not quite an understandable cuddle, because in my experience they are most commonly used for «delivering orders» or two shots. Shot with focus was to compensate their poor Wk. In my opinion, if you take away this ability, then you have to increase Wk to 5 (like somebody said in this topic before).

I suspect the cuddle had something to do with their ability to counter scheme runners from a very central location.  With a Sh higher than the scheme runners defense, the range and bonuses of focus action, and not needing LoS plus ignoring cover it made it very hard for scheme runners to operate.  For most other factions you either need a counter-scheme runner or use your own to handle these gits but the Austringer let you do it from a central and often safe location that let them also threaten the rest of the fight.  Most runners also are not the toughest, many of the cheaper ones have no damage reduction and only 4-5 wounds.  I saw focus shots a lot with Austringers because of this.  Now with as they are currently they can still fulfill this but it is harder as they cannot get that extra 6" range.  This means they might have to be more to one side of they want to prevent scheme runners to insure they cannot slip through and thus pull them from the other side.  So one Austringer cannot cover both flanks completely and two cannot have clear control. 

Considering they still have good range and lack of caring about terrain for shooting I see little reason to give them any sort of buff.  Shots with Focus was more of a carry over from last Edition as they had a 2 AP attack with their Raptor and a 1 AP attack.  They melted the two together for simplicity in M2E but this errata suggests that they found it was either not necessary and/or not healthy.  They well could be saying that a 16" with one attack is sufficient considering the that is a huge chunk of board space.

5 hours ago, Stark said:

And last but not the least – the Lady Justice.

After Tony I TOTALLY don't understand why she isn't buffed. She NEEDS the BUFFS! Look at her. She has the monstrous damage aaaaaaand. That’s all. She has 5 Wk and 5 Df. Oh and yes – the “Diffensive trigger”. It’s a real mockery. The trigger which activates only with :mask and only when you WIN the MI duel.
….
Win a Df duel. With :mask. With 5 Df. You know how often it happens? I know. One-two times in 3-4 games. Extremely cool and useful. When somebody hits LJ in MI it means that it happens on purpose to kill her, and usually it’s somebody with 7MI. And you are with bare 5Df. All her SS usually goes to prevent and protect flips. You have no free SS to add suit for trigger, it will be a miracle if you just win the duel! Аbout the shooting, I won't even talk.
Now about killing the undead – the main task and the mission of the Head of Death Marshals. She has the ability to remove markers and conditions, has nice pulse attack from upgrade (on the result she can’t affect, because its simple duel) aaaaaand that’s all. Yes she can crush almost any model. Except for models with Hard to Kill (for killing them LJ spends 2-3 AP). For simple undead minion which she is supposed to kill easily she looses the whole activation! You can remember about an upgrade for additional MI attack for triggers? But it require the MASKS, but they’re not always in hand and do you remember for what purpose LJ uses her soulstones? Yeap. Besides, it’s Limited, and for a bare model I will prefer the Badge of Office. About the incorporeal, I won't even start.
So we have a master who potentially can kill anyone, except the … UNDEADS! Hurray! The Exorcist are much more fit to the place of Head of Death Marshals – he has all that Lady J needs. Ignoring Hard to kill and incorporeal, tactical (0) to give undead characteristic to the models and trigger for insta-kill spirits. And even hard to wound. Why is the enforser the best fighter with the undead than powerful master? 
I think all her problems can be fixed with couple of upgrades like sisters Mark of Shez'uul (ignoring armor, HtW, HtK, incorporeal for MI attacks) and something to push her in any direction or action for nimble maybe  (it will solve her problem with mobility and stucking in engage).

 

I still am having a hard time grasping on this.  I have never really had problems with Lady Justice.  She has always done the job I want her to do in the games I have taken her.  I do not expect her to wade through the enemy nor do I expect her to be unhittable but I expect her to draw attention.  Really the thing that kept me from using her for the longest time was because when we first started Malifaux she was the go to girl of one of our players so I got sick of playing against her in the last edition.

Now if we are matching background to characters, Lady J's fluff suggests she would be like Perdita, Df7 with 10wds.  She is about not taking a hit rather than tanking them.  But for gaming reasons Wyrd went for the tougher lower Df, likely that was what she was that way in the last Edition and that was likely due to how SS worked plus the Riposte trigger.  That is likely also why she did not change going into M2E as a high defense with the Riposte trigger is nasty and sadly El Mayor exists.  As long as Guild has a way to up a model's Df then you are not likely going to see Lady J's Df going up.  So she is more of a Juggernaut then a wu shu master.  And I really think you are selling her damage short.  How many other masters have a 7 in the stat, can attack multiple times with it in a turn, base damage is pretty much 4+, and can get a positive to damage with out focus or other models?  Other masters need upgrades or support to into that realm and Lady J starts in it.  The viks need to spend addition SS on upgrades, AP on a spell, plus use (0) and careful placing to beat really beat it out but Lady J has it baked in plus a higher Cashe.

As for undead, really there is one thing that is almost certain to help against any type of undead, a high weak damage.  The only other thing might be to ignore Hard to Wound or Incorporeal, but you would need both to really cover the field.  She can cut down most anything minion related that does not have Hard to Kill in two hits and with her Ml7 she is generally hitting unless your hand is drained and they are flipping face cards.  So she can kill the undead, she might even still be the best at it in the guild, just she does it without trickery but raw force.  Sure the Exorcist might ignore Hard to Wound and Incorporeal, but his damage is also 2/3/4 with out a built in Critical Strike.  Lady J, with her built in Critical strike does 2/3/4 damage as well to an Incorporeal model and if she did not have to charge would even has a positive to damage to possible offset Hard to Wound.  So the Exorcist needs that Crow trigger which is not built in, needs the damage not to be stopped, and needs them not to have anything to discard to be certain of any kill.  In addition despite having Hard to Wound like many Marshals he has half the wounds of Lady J and no built in way to heal himself.  I would trust Lady J to win more fights against Undead more often then a Exorcist even if you doubled their numbers against her. 

I do not think Lady Justice needs the stuff you are saying, to give her the stuff you are suggesting would mean she would need to be debuffed in some other way to balance it.  I believe planning and support can make all the difference for Lady J like it can for so many other masters.  Now I can see why people might find her uninteresting or even uninspiring, as Fetid said she is generally either positioning or attacking and the positioning is often to set up for attacking.  Her creativeness is application, not in her options.  People that I know enjoy her often enjoy that they don't have to made decisions between multiple options for AP usage, they like that she is generally walking, charging, or attacking with maybe a light dusting of interacting.  They find that is her appeal.  Does it perfectly line up with the fluff, no, but then a lot of masters have that issue as they are larger than life in the fluff but have to be balanced to the board.

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33 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

[Lady Justice stuff]

While I agree with the rest of your thoughts about different models I think getting her to Df6 with some ability that says that it cannot be modified (up and down) would probably solve the problem of her defense and El Mayor. While I don`t think she is weak, I think she is too straightforward, quite easy to counter and boring-ish and those are the prime reasons I`d errata her. She is still better than pre-errata Lucius for sure. I think she definitely could use some changes or some new/updated upgrades (1SS and not 0SS) as the current ones are pretty rubbish.

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38 minutes ago, trikk said:

While I agree with the rest of your thoughts about different models I think getting her to Df6 with some ability that says that it cannot be modified (up and down) would probably solve the problem of her defense and El Mayor. While I don`t think she is weak, I think she is too straightforward, quite easy to counter and boring-ish and those are the prime reasons I`d errata her. She is still better than pre-errata Lucius for sure. I think she definitely could use some changes or some new/updated upgrades (1SS and not 0SS) as the current ones are pretty rubbish.

While I do like this idea, what I'd really like to see is Justice Unleashed go down in price/not be limited. I'd also like an in-theme upgrade for Death Marshals/The Judge similar to how Carlos Vasquez has an upgrade based on if he's run in-theme (take off the gun on Stand For Justice/give Marshals a slight Ca buff?) or a better generic Guild Marshal/Witch Hunter upgrade.

Death Marshal Recruiters do help her out a fair bit though and I'm quite happy to see them in the game.

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Personal opinion, we were rightly concerned about the power level of things like death strikes and masters like justice being able to stone for powerful triggers. As the game has moved on and they have seen fit to grant Asami an auto death strike she can stone for I think that has proved we could probably revisit things like Seamus' death strike trigger on his bag and Justice's ability to stone for onslaught. 

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3 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Personal opinion, we were rightly concerned about the power level of things like death strikes and masters like justice being able to stone for powerful triggers. As the game has moved on and they have seen fit to grant Asami an auto death strike she can stone for I think that has proved we could probably revisit things like Seamus' death strike trigger on his bag and Justice's ability to stone for onslaught. 

Are you saying Justice shouldn't need to stone for Onslaught? Because at present all she needs is a :mask for it.

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Hmmm I must have been remembering a phase of the open where she had to have the card and the stone, like some of the death strikes got. There were a number of SS user models that have triggers that are harder to use than a minion because they need the card and a stone to activate them. Pretty much the majority of those, at this point in the game, I feel need to go. Just let them stone for the trigger. I was remembering a time when Justice had to do that for onslaught. 

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Off the top of my head the only masters that are left that are missing a suit for a two suit trigger is Seamus on his back of tool, Misaki on her Bisento, and Brewmaster on his defense trigger.  In Seamus and Misaki's case they are the if you damage they are dead unless they discard two cards or SS and in Brewmaster's case if they miss the attack the attacker has to place their model anywhere in their deployment zone *Which can be pretty powerful if only forcing them to spend time getting back*.

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7 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Off the top of my head the only masters that are left that are missing a suit for a two suit trigger is Seamus on his back of tool, Misaki on her Bisento, and Brewmaster on his defense trigger.  In Seamus and Misaki's case they are the if you damage they are dead unless they discard two cards or SS and in Brewmaster's case if they miss the attack the attacker has to place their model anywhere in their deployment zone *Which can be pretty powerful if only forcing them to spend time getting back*.

 both Leveticus and Tara have plenty of two-suit triggers

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3 hours ago, Seadhna said:

 both Leveticus and Tara have plenty of two-suit triggers

I think you missed what the comment was about.  We are commenting about triggers that have two suits requirements where neither of the suit is built in.  So basically ones that you have to spend a SS on a suit plus flip or cheat the other suit in to get it off generally.  So Tara has one, the double crow one as her sword attack has a tome built in but Levi always has one of the two suits he needs in his.

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2 hours ago, Morgs said:

Gentle reminder to the powers that be that the scribe is still a peon on the new card. I think someone else mentioned it but that post may have been lost in the thread

My humble guess is, those are just the PREVIEW files and won't get updated. I guess once @Aaron uploads them on the Errata page and such, we will see all the change we contributed to. The question is only, when they will be available on Wyrd's site :/

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Hm, any chance there will be a bundle of the upgraded cards on Wargame Vault? An Errata January 2017 bundle? Would be very convenient, even if the savings were slim... I imagine there will also be a certain interest in getting previously errata'd cards in a bundle; perhaps there should always be two errata bundles up on the site: "Latest wave of errata" and "All M2E errata up until this point"...

By the way, will the Wave 4 generalist updates be released on WV? As a bundle? Not because I don't want to buy directly from Wyrd, but would be convenient to get it all in one place...

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  • Lucidicide unpinned and unfeatured this topic
On 01/01/2017 at 4:50 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

Stark, you're correct that at this point Lady J in addition to other wave 1 masters needs something, but not what you suggest. What you suggest would basically recreate the Leveticus they Cuddled. We don't need that back in the game. Nor should she get more anti undead tech. She has it in massively high weak dmg and the ability to deny markers, in addition to flames of the pit, which is in line with the flavor the other guild masters get. Giving in to what you suggest would basically mean the Ressers need not try to apply if there are guild players with lady J What she and other wave 1 masters need is more interesting things to do with their AP.

Right now her choices are position for attack, or attack. That's not that interesting, and given that without the brutal emissary taxi, which solves her mobility issues, and the recruiter solves her durability issues, she can get blocked off from making the charges she wants, which is frustrating for her, but encourages interaction with the opponent. She needs something that allows her to still have a meaningful effect on the game when she doesn't attack, which should encourage but not require Marshal's. 

I'm honestly still not sure why they took away her peacebringer, even just having that one with say an anti-undead bullet trigger or such would be nice. Though I guess you could argue she carries around more as a symbol than as a weapon, considering I don't know even knowing her great skill how good she'd be at shooting blind.

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29 minutes ago, Astrella said:

I'm honestly still not sure why they took away her peacebringer, even just having that one with say an anti-undead bullet trigger or such would be nice. Though I guess you could argue she carries around more as a symbol than as a weapon, considering I don't know even knowing her great skill how good she'd be at shooting blind.

She used to be pretty solid at shooting (at least in First edition, Sh 5 with a positive flip if I remember correctly)

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Hi I will do a command on wargamevault for several french people. 

But someone (like me) have special edition (cooper, miss terrious). Does anyone know if these cards will be available on wargamevault? And When (if it's in 6 monthes it not the same if it's in six days).

 

Thanks

 

 

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