Starting with Mah, where to go?

[melkore]

I've convinced my significant other to get into the game and she took a shine to Mah Tucket.  She'll be getting Mah's box for Christmas and has picked up some single boxes on her own that she thought looked cool.  Being an Archanist player, I'm not familiar enough with Gremlins to really know how to use her models very well or where to go from here.

What she'll have come x-mas:

• The Bushwhackers box
• Merris LaCroix
• Sparks (I picked him up for Mei Fang)
• Gluttony (my Crossroads 7 box)
• Whiskey Golem (clearance at lgs)
• Moon Shinobi box (clearance at lgs)

My initial thoughts are to pick up singles of the rest of the Brewmaster box and she can use my Performers for that list but I feel she should stick to a single master for a bit.

 

Thoughts?

[Four_N_Six]

People will swear up and down for rooster riders. I'm not a fan personally, but I know why they work. 

I usually run her with a threatening melee model. Mancha or the Emissary, whiskey golem works as well, and they cruise up the board and take models down while the crew handles your points with Merris, Trixie, or Fingers. Mancha works better just because if you have the cards to discard, him and Mah can be Ml 8 for the turn. 

[Math Mathonwy]

I don't like Mancha much with Mah since he eats up a lot of resources as does she. It's just too much IMO. Ml8 is all fun and such but I really don't see it being worth the cost.

Roosters are indeed gold (insane melee, really fast and efficient with Bayou Two-card which is important to save cards for Mah) and Burt is brilliant. Finally, Slop Haulers (also Bayou Two-card!) are always welcome. I would go with those three as your initial additions.

So yeah, basically the opposite opinion on the previous poster - read into that what you want  

Oh, and Merris, Sparks, Whiskey Golem - all work nicely with Mah. Gluttony I have never tried so no opinion on him.

[Four_N_Six]

I definitely understand about Mancha. I don't try to get the Ml8 often, but it's useful when it's needed. I personally like him because of his charge distance and melee expert helps him keep up with Mah. Whiskey Golem is my second choice because of Nimble. 

I almost always run Old Cranky. She kills, so you're getting back stones. I don't hate the Bushwackers to be honest, but there are a lot of really good models for gremlins in the 6 stone range. 

I'm also planning to try Survivors, and I've had success with the gators as well. 5 stones for a melee expert model on the gators. Survivors are 5 stones with the option of becoming ranged if necessary. 

[Math Mathonwy]

I like to use Lil Lass. Old Cranky is brilliant but I find that he limits my positioning in annoying ways. Now, Mah is really good at positioning things but I'd rather use that on something other than Cranky. The extra SS are really good, though. And I can certainly see the appeal and everyone should at least test out Cranky.

I also dislike Gators and Survivors!  (I find that Slop Haulers basically do the same thing except that they can be more versatile and have Bayou Two-card).

[Macumazahn]

Lucky Emmisary works very well with Mah by my experience, and as has been said in this thread the rooster riders are great, in fact I would say they work even better with Mah than with any other master.

[Four_N_Six]

I like the Emissary because I don't like being tied to Trixiebelle for the proper chore.  

[melkore]

Awesome ideas everyone!  So far it looks like it is boiling down to

• Rooster Riders for sure
• Don't discount the models we already have (Namely Whiskey Golem)
• Slop Haulers are a staple in a lot of lists I've come up against so also higher on the list
• Take a look at Old Cranky
• Survivors look interesting with Sparks
• Emissary is also good with her (I still haven't seen it on the table)
• After that the other classic gremlin models like Bert, Lenny, etc.

[Swinerider]

Although you don't want to get bogged down with high cost models, McTavish is a monster. While some of his bonuses come from swampfiends that you may not be using, not randomizing when shooting into melee is big especially when Mah is running all over the place. 

 

I I don't feel that survivors have quite hit their stride yet in the faction. Even with sparks and earl burns, there doesn't seem to be enough in faction to justify their cost. 

[Math Mathonwy]

The problem with Lucky Emissary is that it is a new way of discarding a card! Which I feel is something that Mah needs about as much as an extra leg. Otherwise the Emissary is nice but it does limit your list construction further. I prefer the Sparks + Whiskey Golem duo.

[wizuriel]

iron skeeters can help models keep up with Mah

[Dogmantra]

I think I'm with Math on the Emissary with Mah. I've found it's too card hungry and not quite tanky enough to survive being the frontline beater you want it to be in that crew. Not having the Gremlin or Pig characteristics hurts it because no Sloppy healing. I think you could make it work, it just feels like more work than is worth it to take something else. I've not used the Whiskey Golem in a long long time but I think I'd be inclined to agree with using that over the Emissary, although you still lose out on the slop hauler healing. Gracie is another model I would consider, although she can also be kinda card hungry.

 

I've had the most success with Mah bringing Lenny & Old Cranky, and keeping them just out of arm's reach of my opponents with Mancha Roja and Mah herself acting as the frontline. In the case I'm specifically thinking of however, the cards were quite nice to me and so obviously Mancha & Mah's card draining antics didn't hurt as much as they could.

 

Definitely think Lenny is a big one though. Mah can move him up with her (0), he offers her the extra suit to make sure she can either always stone for her free charge or not have to stone if she has a decent tome, as well as just generally being a good model.

[Somnicide]

For upgrades, I have recently added Do Over to her - she doesn't have shooting but really I am just using it to draw 2 extra cards on the turn I am charging her in, since she is usually pitching one for "Let Mah Handle This". I only ran her with 2 upgrades before that, with Little Lass carrying the Armored Apron and rushing off to do damage and then die gloriously.

[Clockwork_Fish]

I'm curious if anyone has proxied either Banjionistas or Swine-Cursed with her.

[Dogmantra]

I can't remember if I've used Banjonistas with Mah specifically but what's your thinking about that?

[Clockwork_Fish]

They give a bit of extra movement with Foggy Bayou Hoedown.  Only 2", but unlike Mah, it just happens, there's no cards to waste.  Bayou Blues could potentially produce an extra card here or there, but that's situational; probably better for Som'er.  Also, there's no on their ranged attack, unlike Lightning Bugs.

[Four_N_Six]

I did banjonistas with Som'er, 2 of them for 4" every turn. They worked pretty well. I tend to run Mah crews a little more elite, so I wouldn't get as much mileage out of them in a Mah crew. Their ranged attack would be quite useful, though. 

[wizuriel]

I like the look of  banjonistas, but imagine they will have a hard time keeping up with Mah and her crew

[Somnicide]

I have been playing a ton of Mah lately, and I cannot stress how card intensive she can be as a master, especially on your "money" turn. And why I went to Do Over as mentioned above. Let's look at a very common occurrence in my games.

I set up the previous turn both in terms of models and hand building so I won't have to rely on getting lucky on a top deck flip, knowing I am quite likely to win/cheat initiative (you want Trixiebelle more for the Chores ability than winning). We'll say I have a high/moderate Ram in hand just to get both and the target I want to charge is about 10" or out of LOS because my opponent is at least competent.

Since it's the money turn, you want to get off the charge, and you want to be at max competitive value. Out For Blood covers this nicely because of the "free" charge, that costs a soul stone and a decent card. I'll assume you built your hand for the card the previous turn. You start the turn with 6 cards after draw (you may even want to burn a soul stone to improve it if you have a few extra, which you probably don't).

Of the 6, let's say you need to cheat to go first/get that +1 Ml. You need her to have high raw numbers of Ml 8, because you want to avoid cheating if you can, or do so on weaker cards.

5 cards left. If you are in great position you don't need to push, in this case though, we do need to, so we pitch a card and use the 0 to push 6" giving us LOS. We still have 3 AP left and are MAT 7 now, but the hand size is only 4.

Now we flip for the trigger to get the free charge, +3" Ml range, and +1 Ml (spending a soul stone for the extra suit, remember). We don't flip the suited moderately high card we need, so cheat that in as well.

3 cards left, but we get the charge off for free - but it is the top of the turn and the opponent hasn't used a card yet and we are already at a 3 card deficit. We have a total of 4 attacks, and if each only does min damage, that is only 12 points total, and the target we are likely charging has better than average stats (or some other defensive schtick) like hard to wound. Realistically, we will need to cheat in all 3 of those cards just to hit, or if I get lucky, on a wound. I might even miss once, or decided to hold back a card for another model (like Trixiebelle) or to use on defense.

This leaves me on 0 cards for the rest of my turn, but with ideal triggers I might be 7" away from the model I attacked if I failed to kill it through soulstone use or their defensive tricks. The rest of my turn I am at the mercy of my fate deck, and hoping I brought a lot of bayou two card.

Now, the above isn't uncommon, it actually happens most games if you are willing to sacrifice Mah for an objective. The problem, as experienced, and I hope illustrated, is that you aren't just sacrificing Mah in the same way that you would be sacrificing Francois. You are actually sacrificing almost your entire turn if you wanted to do anything other than scheme run because most Gremlins have subpar stats.

Now, let me add that I am a huge fan of Mah, and have been having a blast playing her, either win or lose. Her card hunger just requires you go into it prepared. I actually pulled out Bushwhackers and then ended up putting them back in. They actually have pretty solid stats, and not just for Gremlins. If you absolutely need that extra shot they can take it at the cost of damage (that and Bayou Two Card is why I also always run at least 1 and more likely 2 Bayou Gremlins - if I don't have the points, I will give Trixie a Gun For a Lady). A fun trick with the bushwhackers is to move them into location, or focus twice for their activation and blowing it on an out of activation shot. 

A Stuffed Piglet or two is always nice if you have the points. The Slop Hauler has Bayou Two Card, and can drop Df down to 4, which even lets Little Lass hand out the pain, and can have Mah on a +4 flip!

I do like Little Lass, because with the Lead Lined Apron, she is basically only 2 points, and can hit really hard, you want her to die so you can be a bit reckless, and the 3" Ml range is great for holding things up. Also is surprisingly difficult to kill with 6 stats, and armor 1. 

Rooster Riders as mentioned are awesome with her, benefiting from +1 Ml, and also having Bayou Two card.

I like Burt Jebson because he runs up nicely with Little Lass and can slippery the attack to her to kill her if you want to transfer the armor, or depending on the damage spread, again, she can soak up a lot of min/moderate damage attacks. 

I want to try Mah with pigs sometime, but have been playing against Marcus a lot lately, and pigs are a bad idea against him.

Anyway, I have been wanting to put down my thoughts and experiences with her for a while before I let her rest a spell. Sorry this ended up a bit long and rambling.

[Nikodemus]

I don't play Mah or Gremlins, but do you really want to pitch a card just to get the right chores? On paper that seems like something you're happy with when you get it, but a pointless card sink otherwise. Is it really the best use for your moderate or severe ram?

[Somnicide]

Yeah it matters more than winning a lot of the time, so sometimes you'll cheat low if you don't need to go first. Bumping rooster riders Ml up 1 is kind of a big deal.

 

say I have a 10 and a 3 of a certain suit and my opponent flips an 8 - if I don't have a pressing need to go first, but do need one of the other effects I'll cheat the 3.

[Math Mathonwy]

12 hours ago, Somnicide said:

I want to try Mah with pigs sometime, but have been playing against Marcus a lot lately, and pigs are a bad idea against him.

The Sow is pretty brilliant with Mah - highly recommended!

[Four_N_Six]

15 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

I don't play Mah or Gremlins, but do you really want to pitch a card just to get the right chores? On paper that seems like something you're happy with when you get it, but a pointless card sink otherwise. Is it really the best use for your moderate or severe ram?

Most of them are pretty situational, but that Ram is important.  Gremlins as a whole tend to be lower on stats, coming to the board with Ml 5 on average, so the boost is important when you can get it.  What's better?  Having a 10  to cheat fate once, or giving your entire gremlin crew +1 Ml for every attack?  I'm not saying I'd do it every time, but most of the time that's how I'm playing it.  Especially if it's from Trixie and I'm getting the initiative, too.

[Sergrum]

On 12/12/2016 at 5:07 PM, Nikodemus said:

I don't play Mah or Gremlins, but do you really want to pitch a card just to get the right chores? On paper that seems like something you're happy with when you get it, but a pointless card sink otherwise. Is it really the best use for your moderate or severe ram?

if you're playing Mah, you've already conceded that you're going to be doing things sub-optimally ;). I do wish her chores were more "balanced" in a sense that the other 3 wouldn't be so grossly situational/bad (2 involve your own models dying) that its pretty much a "find/hope for a ram" type ability. 

[Clement]

On 12/12/2016 at 0:42 PM, Somnicide said:

3 cards left, but we get the charge off for free - but it is the top of the turn and the opponent hasn't used a card yet and we are already at a 3 card deficit. We have a total of 4 attacks, and if each only does min damage, that is only 12 points total, and the target we are likely charging has better than average stats (or some other defensive schtick) like hard to wound. Realistically, we will need to cheat in all 3 of those cards just to hit, or if I get lucky, on a wound. I might even miss once, or decided to hold back a card for another model (like Trixiebelle) or to use on defense.

At this point in your sequence Mah is Ml 8, are you finding she *really* has to cheat every single time?  Generally I've found at this point in the "run" Mah is hitting pretty consistently, even if my opponent cheats.   If you're super paranoid, you can add to the run by having any other gremlin die for "Do It Right" which can help mitigate the card punishment from her attacks.